Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

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GATORTIM
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby GATORTIM » Wed May 05, 2010 4:11 pm



The comment by Joe is the icing on Junior's cycle

lawschoollll
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby lawschoollll » Wed May 05, 2010 4:18 pm

GATORTIM wrote:


The comment by Joe is the icing on Junior's cycle

I actually laughed out loud when I read that comment, and I'm at work in a quiet office. It's pretty incisive.

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84Sunbird2000
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby 84Sunbird2000 » Wed May 05, 2010 5:04 pm

The LSAT has about a .4 correlation to 1L grades (and that is its best correlation!), while UGPA is around a .3. Those who finish towards the top of their class at a T4 are likely those who (even if they had gone to a "better" school) would have significantly outclassed their LSAT/GPA anywhere. Thinking that someone who scores a 151 on the LSAT is simply not cut out to be a lawyer is BS. I don't see how a T14 grad who does really shitty in school not getting a job is unfair. I do see how finishing top 1/4 at TTTT and not getting similar job opportunities to someone at median at a T1 is unfair and illogical. The poor correlations simply don't support the notion that entrance requirements = quality of lawyer produced. It will mean the likelihood of someone being a better lawyer is slightly higher, but it's very, very far from being foolproof.

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MrSoOoFLy
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby MrSoOoFLy » Wed May 05, 2010 5:09 pm

84Sunbird2000 wrote:The LSAT has about a .4 correlation to 1L grades (and that is its best correlation!), while UGPA is around a .3. Those who finish towards the top of their class at a T4 are likely those who (even if they had gone to a "better" school) would have significantly outclassed their LSAT/GPA anywhere. Thinking that someone who scores a 151 on the LSAT is simply not cut out to be a lawyer is BS. I don't see how a T14 grad who does really shitty in school not getting a job is unfair. I do see how finishing top [strike]1/4[/strike] 5% at TTTT and not getting similar job opportunities to someone at median at a T1 is unfair and illogical. The poor correlations simply don't support the notion that entrance requirements = quality of lawyer produced. It will mean the likelihood of someone being a better lawyer is slightly higher, but it's very, very far from being foolproof.


Fixed

lawschoollll
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby lawschoollll » Wed May 05, 2010 5:15 pm

84Sunbird2000 wrote:The LSAT has about a .4 correlation to 1L grades (and that is its best correlation!), while UGPA is around a .3. Those who finish towards the top of their class at a T4 are likely those who (even if they had gone to a "better" school) would have significantly outclassed their LSAT/GPA anywhere. Thinking that someone who scores a 151 on the LSAT is simply not cut out to be a lawyer is BS. I don't see how a T14 grad who does really shitty in school not getting a job is unfair. I do see how finishing top 1/4 at TTTT and not getting similar job opportunities to someone at median at a T1 is unfair and illogical. The poor correlations simply don't support the notion that entrance requirements = quality of lawyer produced. It will mean the likelihood of someone being a better lawyer is slightly higher, but it's very, very far from being foolproof.

The idea is that you're facing tougher peer competition at T1 schools... so that the same performance that would get you top 10% at a TTTT will get you median at a T1 or T2. Whether or not that is fair is debatable. Whether or not that is "illogical" is not - the logic is pretty plain.

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McBean
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby McBean » Wed May 05, 2010 5:17 pm

84Sunbird2000 wrote:The LSAT has about a .4 correlation to 1L grades (and that is its best correlation!), while UGPA is around a .3. Those who finish towards the top of their class at a T4 are likely those who (even if they had gone to a "better" school) would have significantly outclassed their LSAT/GPA anywhere. Thinking that someone who scores a 151 on the LSAT is simply not cut out to be a lawyer is BS. I don't see how a T14 grad who does really shitty in school not getting a job is unfair. I do see how finishing top 1/4 at TTTT and not getting similar job opportunities to someone at median at a T1 is unfair and illogical. The poor correlations simply don't support the notion that entrance requirements = quality of lawyer produced. It will mean the likelihood of someone being a better lawyer is slightly higher, but it's very, very far from being foolproof.



I think the correlations might be so far off because classes at law school are grouped around GPAs & LSAT scores. So for instance, the majority of Harvard students are between 170-180 (guessing). Someone on the plain has to get bottom 10%. You go to a higher ranked school, you compete among your intellectual pears.

Anyways, as a practical matter, the ones who go to higher ranked schools have more opportunities, generally, and thus have a much better careers, in general. This may not be fair, but it is real. I'm speaking in generalities, and I admit there are outliers, but go ahead and link me to that Wikipedia for some guy who went to Cooley and then got super rich if you really want to.

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bamlax
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby bamlax » Wed May 05, 2010 5:18 pm

Headed to a TTT and I'll be just fine. I might have had one too many beers in college and my GPA may have suffered, but I dont think getting an oportunity to get a JD at a TTT is anything close to suicide. Ya I might come out with some debt, but if I come out at 26, making 60-90 thousand a year I will not be complaining. You guys who are going to T-14 schools think that schools out of the top 100 might take away from the job pool, but a lot of people are content with small to mid size firms and more regional placement with their J.D., which probably, for the most part, are jobs that you wouldnt try to take in the first place. Yes some TTTT and TTT are questionable, but I also believe that there are some schools in those categories that are needed and that give great opportunities to those, like myself, who may have had a low GPA, etc. I would much rather spend three years at a TTT school, than sitting behind a cubicle for 3 more years, making 30k, wanting to kill myself and going nowhere with the now worthless B.A. ...

Happy Cinco de Mayo! !SALUD!

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McBean
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby McBean » Wed May 05, 2010 5:19 pm

lawschoollll wrote:
Always Credited wrote: The standard is whatever the schools set. If Cardozo lets you in with a 152, good for you. If Brooklyn dings you with a 171, you're up a creek; it's simply at their discretion. But the power of discretion cannot be granted so broadly that there's literally an ABA accredited law school to fit ANY score, which is the situation we currently have.


False:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/junior201



This is fake right? I mean, his undergrad was Legal Studies. Too perfect. Has to be fake.

GIJOE3066
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby GIJOE3066 » Wed May 05, 2010 5:20 pm

I would like to thank everyone that posted a serious reply; they are more in line with what I was trying to understand regarding how the lower tier schools are viewed. I will actually be surveyed off the job (and out of the military) due to injuries sustained in Afghanistan.

I am looking for another career, and would like to become a prosecutor, my GPA is 3.58 and my practice scores on the LSAT are in the high 150's low 160's and I just started practicing, several more months to go until I am comfortable with my score.

There is a part of me that does not want to commute any farther than I have to so Touro would be convenient for me. However, if I cannot accomplish my goals by going there then I may have to re-think the commute factor.
Again, thank you for your advice, and useful opinions.

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McBean
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby McBean » Wed May 05, 2010 5:22 pm

bamlax wrote:Headed to a TTT and I'll be just fine. I might have had one too many beers in college and my GPA may have suffered, but I dont think getting an oportunity to get a JD at a TTT is anything close to suicide. Ya I might come out with some debt, but if I come out at 26, making 60-90 thousand a year I will not be complaining. You guys who are going to T-14 schools think that schools out of the top 100 might take away from the job pool, but a lot of people are content with small to mid size firms and more regional placement with their J.D., which probably, for the most part, are jobs that you wouldnt try to take in the first place. Yes some TTTT and TTT are questionable, but I also believe that there are some schools in those categories that are needed and that give great opportunities to those, like myself, who may have had a low GPA, etc. I would much rather spend three years at a TTT school, than sitting behind a cubicle for 3 more years, making 30k, wanting to kill myself and going nowhere with the now worthless B.A. ...

Happy Cinco de Mayo! !SALUD!



This is the credited attitude if going to a lower ranked school. Realistic/cautiously optimistic. Just watch the debt.

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84Sunbird2000
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby 84Sunbird2000 » Wed May 05, 2010 5:23 pm

TO SoDooFly: No, I was saying I believe Top 25% at T4 SHOULD equal Top 50% at a school ranked around 50, not that T4 grads currently enjoy such opportunities.

Oh, and also, to all those making comparisons to med school, your idea about MCAT scores are way off. While I'd agree the harm a less-competent doctor can do is greater to the harm a less-competent lawyer can do, and thus a more cautious admissions process is agreeable, a 30 on the MCAT with a decent GPA (3.5) is definitely competitive. There are several MD schools that have MCAT averages around 27. DO schools dip into the 24-25 range. Comparing percentiles, a 27 MCAT is 153-154 on the LSAT. A 30 on the MCAT is 79th percentile, which is in the 159-160 range on the LSAT. Even a 34 MCAT is a 164-165 equivalent LSAT.

lawschoollll
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby lawschoollll » Wed May 05, 2010 5:27 pm

GIJOE3066 wrote:I would like to thank everyone that posted a serious reply; they are more in line with what I was trying to understand regarding how the lower tier schools are viewed. I will actually be surveyed off the job (and out of the military) due to injuries sustained in Afghanistan.

I am looking for another career, and would like to become a prosecutor, my GPA is 3.58 and my practice scores on the LSAT are in the high 150's low 160's and I just started practicing, several more months to go until I am comfortable with my score.

There is a part of me that does not want to commute any farther than I have to so Touro would be convenient for me. However, if I cannot accomplish my goals by going there then I may have to re-think the commute factor.
Again, thank you for your advice, and useful opinions.

Um, dude, just get a 165+ and forget about this whole TTT thing...

lawschoollll
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby lawschoollll » Wed May 05, 2010 5:28 pm

bamlax wrote:Headed to a TTT and I'll be just fine. I might have had one too many beers in college and my GPA may have suffered, but I dont think getting an oportunity to get a JD at a TTT is anything close to suicide. Ya I might come out with some debt, but if I come out at 26, making 60-90 thousand a year I will not be complaining. You guys who are going to T-14 schools think that schools out of the top 100 might take away from the job pool, but a lot of people are content with small to mid size firms and more regional placement with their J.D., which probably, for the most part, are jobs that you wouldnt try to take in the first place. Yes some TTTT and TTT are questionable, but I also believe that there are some schools in those categories that are needed and that give great opportunities to those, like myself, who may have had a low GPA, etc. I would much rather spend three years at a TTT school, than sitting behind a cubicle for 3 more years, making 30k, wanting to kill myself and going nowhere with the now worthless B.A. ...

Happy Cinco de Mayo! !SALUD!

Haha, $90K. Anyone have that bimodal chart handy?

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Grizz
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby Grizz » Wed May 05, 2010 5:28 pm

bamlax wrote:Headed to a TTT and I'll be just fine. I might have had one too many beers in college and my GPA may have suffered, but I dont think getting an oportunity to get a JD at a TTT is anything close to suicide. Ya I might come out with some debt, but if I come out at 26, making [strike]60-90[/strike] 30-40 thousand a year I will not be complaining.


FTFY

You guys who are going to T-14 schools think that schools out of the top 100 might take away from the job pool, but a lot of people are content with small to mid size firms and more regional placement with their J.D., which probably, for the most part, are jobs that you wouldnt try to take in the first place. Yes some TTTT and TTT are questionable, but I also believe that there are some schools in those categories that are needed and that give great opportunities to those, like myself, who may have had a low GPA, etc. I would much rather spend three years at a TTT school, than sitting behind a cubicle for 3 more years, making 30k, wanting to kill myself and going nowhere with the now worthless B.A. ...


Generally, unless you hit the tippity top of the class at your TTT/TTTT, law school will be a bad investment because you will be making about the same as when you started, but will have lost $90k in opportunity cost. Thanks to the economy, grads from elite schools are more than happy to take those small firm jobs in your regional market. Sorry.

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Grizz
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby Grizz » Wed May 05, 2010 5:30 pm

lawschoollll wrote:Haha, $90K. Anyone have that bimodal chart handy?


YES


Image

The first hump is probably a lot larger to self-selective under-reporting.

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84Sunbird2000
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby 84Sunbird2000 » Wed May 05, 2010 5:32 pm

McBean wrote:
I think the correlations might be so far off because classes at law school are grouped around GPAs & LSAT scores. So for instance, the majority of Harvard students are between 170-180 (guessing). Someone on the plain has to get bottom 10%. You go to a higher ranked school, you compete among your intellectual pears.

Anyways, as a practical matter, the ones who go to higher ranked schools have more opportunities, generally, and thus have a much better careers, in general. This may not be fair, but it is real. I'm speaking in generalities, and I admit there are outliers, but go ahead and link me to that Wikipedia for some guy who went to Cooley and then got super rich if you really want to.


I guess that the LSAT/GPA clumps are tighter at, say, HYS or even Cornell. That being said, the ranges at IUB or Case Western or most of the lower tier schools are considerably wider. I mean, IUB's 25th was 156 and 75th was 165. In percentile terms that's between 68th percentile and 92nd. Pretty big gap considering that a full 50% of the class expands that gap even more (to what degree, though, we can't say). I bring up Case because they just introduced GPA req's to their scholarships. Why? Because NONE of the scholarship recipients had been in the top 10% of the class.

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General Tso
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby General Tso » Wed May 05, 2010 5:33 pm

rad law wrote:Generally, unless you hit the tippity top of the class at your TTT/TTTT, law school will be a bad investment because you will be making about the same as when you started, but will have lost $90k in opportunity cost. Thanks to the economy, grads from elite schools are more than happy to take those small firm jobs in your regional market. Sorry.


You forgot the 75-150k debt most people take. So really the total opportunity cost is more like 150-250k over 3 years.

On the other hand, I think that poster was on to something when he said he would have a brighter career outlook than a BA guy behind a cubicle. If he manages to land a legal job and sticks with it for 10+ years, even if he starts out at 40k, his salary will have increased at a rate higher than that for a BA holder. Probably still not a good financial investment, but maybe close to break-even.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby GATORTIM » Wed May 05, 2010 5:34 pm

McBean wrote: go ahead and link me to that Wikipedia for some guy who went to Cooley and then got super rich if you really want to.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Engler

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby Mr. Matlock » Wed May 05, 2010 5:35 pm

GIJOE3066 wrote:I would like to thank everyone that posted a serious reply; they are more in line with what I was trying to understand regarding how the lower tier schools are viewed. I will actually be surveyed off the job (and out of the military) due to injuries sustained in Afghanistan.

I am looking for another career, and would like to become a prosecutor, my GPA is 3.58 and my practice scores on the LSAT are in the high 150's low 160's and I just started practicing, several more months to go until I am comfortable with my score.

There is a part of me that does not want to commute any farther than I have to so Touro would be convenient for me. However, if I cannot accomplish my goals by going there then I may have to re-think the commute factor.
Again, thank you for your advice, and useful opinions.

Regardless of what anyone has said, thank you for your service. I'm of the belief that some "softs" actually do make a difference. In your life, I believe this to be true. Keep working hard and ROCK the LSAT! Good luck to you and thanks again!!!

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vanwinkle
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed May 05, 2010 5:42 pm

GIJOE3066 wrote:I would like to thank everyone that posted a serious reply; they are more in line with what I was trying to understand regarding how the lower tier schools are viewed. I will actually be surveyed off the job (and out of the military) due to injuries sustained in Afghanistan.

I am looking for another career, and would like to become a prosecutor, my GPA is 3.58 and my practice scores on the LSAT are in the high 150's low 160's and I just started practicing, several more months to go until I am comfortable with my score.

There is a part of me that does not want to commute any farther than I have to so Touro would be convenient for me. However, if I cannot accomplish my goals by going there then I may have to re-think the commute factor.
Again, thank you for your advice, and useful opinions.

I see I'm late to this party, but I'll just jump in and add what's already been said. Most people are hard on those schools not because of who attends them but because of their limited job options when you graduate. To that end, you'd be better off aiming for a much better school than Touro.

However, if you've only just started practicing the LSAT and you're already hitting the 160s, you have a lot of potential. My first practice LSAT was 157 and I went up to 170 in four months. If you keep working at it you can probably rock the October LSAT and have a real shot at some very good schools. While you'll have to face a longer commute or even relocating, this will be much, much better for your long term goals.

Also, re: injuries sustained in Afghanistan... Thank you for serving our country. We are all in your debt.

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MrSoOoFLy
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby MrSoOoFLy » Wed May 05, 2010 5:44 pm

84Sunbird2000 wrote:TO SoDooFly: No, I was saying I believe Top 25% at T4 SHOULD equal Top 50% at a school ranked around 50, not that T4 grads currently enjoy such opportunities.


How do you incorrectly spell my user? I guess TTTT suits you.

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McBean
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby McBean » Wed May 05, 2010 5:50 pm

I just read over a few posts and must clear something up:

Opportunity Costs: What we give up as a result of going to law school; traditionally restricted to purely financial quantum. For most people this means the salary they would be making for three years if they did not go to law school.

Direct Cost: Tuition and living expenses while in law school, plus interest incurred on debt to pay those expenses.

Total Cost: The sum of the two above.

Net Cost: The sum of the two above, minus expenses that would have been incurred had you not gone to law school (or these can be figured into opportunity cost).

That is all.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby Mr. Matlock » Wed May 05, 2010 5:55 pm

McBean wrote:I just read over a few posts and must clear something up:

Opportunity Costs: What we give up as a result of going to law school; traditionally restricted to purely financial quantum. For most people this means the salary they would be making for three years if they did not go to law school.

Direct Cost: Tuition and living expenses while in law school, plus interest incurred on debt to pay those expenses.

Total Cost: The sum of the two above.

Net Cost: The sum of the two above, minus expenses that would have been incurred had you not gone to law school (or these can be figured into opportunity cost).

That is all.

Thank you Pythagoras!

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84Sunbird2000
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby 84Sunbird2000 » Wed May 05, 2010 5:56 pm

MrSoOoFLy wrote:
84Sunbird2000 wrote:TO SoDooFly: No, I was saying I believe Top 25% at T4 SHOULD equal Top 50% at a school ranked around 50, not that T4 grads currently enjoy such opportunities.


How do you incorrectly spell my user? I guess TTTT suits you.


First, it's not your real name, so I don't feel like it's a slight to have accidentally misspelled it. Second, as you can see in my profile, I'm not going to a TTTT, but I feel it prudent and ethically necessary to defend students considering them. While dreams of prestige prey upon the unsuspecting with very flawed statistics about employment, that doesn't mean that the T4 schools/profs/students are actually worthless. It just means that if the employment stats were accurately reported, less students would enroll and those that did would have a more realistic outlook. DC and CUNY are dirt-cheap and cater to PI, and they accept the same level of students as Touro or even Cooley. If more schools had to follow that model by being honest, all would be better.

TLS elitism is really quite off-putting and not remotely helpful to those seeking aid. Those who advise against going to a TTTT because of the cost or job opportunities are absolutely fine by me. That's a sad-but-true pragmatism in action. Those who advise against TTTT's because they feel that their admits/grads are incompetent or are stealing jobs that T1ers should have locked up simply by enrolling...not so much.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Why is there continual bashing of T3 & T4 schools?

Postby DoubleChecks » Wed May 05, 2010 5:57 pm

84Sunbird2000 wrote:TO SoDooFly: No, I was saying I believe Top 25% at T4 SHOULD equal Top 50% at a school ranked around 50, not that T4 grads currently enjoy such opportunities.

Oh, and also, to all those making comparisons to med school, your idea about MCAT scores are way off. While I'd agree the harm a less-competent doctor can do is greater to the harm a less-competent lawyer can do, and thus a more cautious admissions process is agreeable, a 30 on the MCAT with a decent GPA (3.5) is definitely competitive. There are several MD schools that have MCAT averages around 27. DO schools dip into the 24-25 range. Comparing percentiles, a 27 MCAT is 153-154 on the LSAT. A 30 on the MCAT is 79th percentile, which is in the 159-160 range on the LSAT. Even a 34 MCAT is a 164-165 equivalent LSAT.


That's dumb. You realize two very separate groups of ppl are taking these exams right? Those who have to go through natural science and maintain a realistic med school GPA vs. those who major in anything as the LSAT/law school has 0 pre-reqs lol.

People who start college wanting to be a doctor but end up switching because they cant make the cut are a dime a dozen, i.e. those med school applicants are already a 'combed' selection.

And dont even get me started on how DIFFERENT the tests are (in what they even test for)!




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