TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

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Always Credited
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Re: TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

Postby Always Credited » Mon May 03, 2010 3:58 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:Argument I see unfolding:

Don't go to TTTT's because you never will get a job!;
WAIT! SOME people can get SOME kind of job and it MIGHT be a good idea for CERTAIN people who DON'T want BIGLAW!
NOT IF THEY WANT BIGLAW IT'S NOT!


The people this compendium would target aren't the people that have researched NYLS (to continue with the example), have found that its a fit for their needs after an honest personal evaluation, understand the risks going in and the opportunities coming out.

This thread is for the person who thinks NYLS at sticker is sweet because its that sick $100k starting job GUARANTEED 'cause they can fo sho be in the top 30% of their class, and NYLS reports in its pamphlet that 30% of its grads went to NYC biglaw man. GOOD TO GO!

There's a massive different between the two people, and one is just as common as the other. We can't assume, in a thread meant to help MOST newbies to the law school process understand the risks, that they already understand the risks and are cool with them.

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bk1
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Re: TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

Postby bk1 » Mon May 03, 2010 4:03 pm

ihurtmyselftoday wrote:
ughOSU wrote:
ihurtmyselftoday wrote:Apparently "TLS Conventional Wisdom"=Ignoring evidence in favor of self-satisfying and blantant lies.

Isn't this more or less what "conventional wisdom" is?

from wikipedia:
Conventional wisdom (CW) is a term used to describe ideas or explanations that are generally accepted as true by the public or by experts in a field. The term implies that the ideas or explanations, though widely held, are unexamined and, hence, may be reevaluated upon further examination or as events unfold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_wisdom


True yet disturbing. So you would agree that the proposed "TLS Conventional Wisdom Bible" is more or less meaningless...

...but I guess it can be used to demonstrate how LOLsy the psuedo-expertise can get in this forum.


Well, I agree that it cannot be the be-all end-all of advice, but it could be a listing of useful tips that are seem to be the answer to the majority of posts in this subforum. Things like:

1. Outside of the T14, schools are generally regional (there are some exceptions).
2. If your goal is biglaw, don't go to a low ranked school (i.e. lower T1, T2, or whatever you want to put here).
3. Don't go to a school with the intentions of transferring, choose a school you would be content graduating from.
4. Apply early.
5. If your options are not what you like and retaking the LSAT could get you in the range of better schools, retake the LSAT and reapply.
etc
etc
etc
50. Yale or ____? The one that starts with Yale. :P

I think that would be a worthwhile endeavor, but trying to get too specific will just bog the board down into its usual factions.

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ArthurEdens
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Re: TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

Postby ArthurEdens » Mon May 03, 2010 4:19 pm

The premise of this thread sickens me. Pretentiousness and groupthink by kids fresh out of college.

If anyone has seen the documentary '49 up' (latest in a series that has followed Brits every 7 years since the age of 7), the mentality of some here matches up with that of the rich kids when they were 7. They felt entitled and sure of themselves. As the series progressed every 7 years, the smugness went away as they slowly realized "life is hard, I can't rest on my not-so-important laurels." I guarantee many T14 students are going to get smoked in the workforce by those they currently thumb their noses at.

/going to a top law school, so this isn't jealousy speaking.

ughOSU
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Re: TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

Postby ughOSU » Mon May 03, 2010 4:52 pm

ihurtmyselftoday wrote:
ughOSU wrote:
ihurtmyselftoday wrote:Apparently "TLS Conventional Wisdom"=Ignoring evidence in favor of self-satisfying and blantant lies.

Isn't this more or less what "conventional wisdom" is?

from wikipedia:
Conventional wisdom (CW) is a term used to describe ideas or explanations that are generally accepted as true by the public or by experts in a field. The term implies that the ideas or explanations, though widely held, are unexamined and, hence, may be reevaluated upon further examination or as events unfold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_wisdom


True yet disturbing. So you would agree that the proposed "TLS Conventional Wisdom Bible" is more or less meaningless...

...but I guess it can be used to demonstrate how LOLsy the psuedo-expertise can get in this forum.

Not completely meaningless, but yes I thought the purpose of this was to accrue the Conventional Wisdom, which should not be taken to be 100% accurate in every case.

ex:
TLS CW for LSAT scores and LS admission
< 160 --> don't go to law school
160-169 --> retake
170+ --> blanket T14.

As with much conventional wisdom, I don't happen to think there is no point to logic like this, but it surely doesn't capture the nuances of everything that goes into the application process, nor should it be taken to be literally true for every applicant.

keg411
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Re: TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

Postby keg411 » Mon May 03, 2010 5:03 pm

Overall, decent thread idea I suppose, but I completely disagree with this magical T18 cutoff (and not just because I am going to #19 in the fall ). As noted above, Vanderbilt=UIUC/ND/WUSTL for the midwest? Would you say Cornell=USC/UCLA or even Hastings/Davis for the west coast? Going to Vanderbilt or USC, or even a lower T14, is not always credited when the school isn't particularly strong in the desired region. Just because a school is "national" does not mean it is better at placing in certain regions than a strong regional school.


Hold on, I was talking about BigLaw cut-offs only. This has ZERO to do with regionality. I'm a HUGE proponent of "go where you want to work" (check my posts) and I would favor this and debt relief over BigLaw placement any day.

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DerrickRose
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Re: TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

Postby DerrickRose » Mon May 03, 2010 5:15 pm

Always Credited wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:Argument I see unfolding:

Don't go to TTTT's because you never will get a job!;
WAIT! SOME people can get SOME kind of job and it MIGHT be a good idea for CERTAIN people who DON'T want BIGLAW!
NOT IF THEY WANT BIGLAW IT'S NOT!


The people this compendium would target aren't the people that have researched NYLS (to continue with the example), have found that its a fit for their needs after an honest personal evaluation, understand the risks going in and the opportunities coming out.

This thread is for the person who thinks NYLS at sticker is sweet because its that sick $100k starting job GUARANTEED 'cause they can fo sho be in the top 30% of their class, and NYLS reports in its pamphlet that 30% of its grads went to NYC biglaw man. GOOD TO GO!


There's a massive different between the two people, and one is just as common as the other. We can't assume, in a thread meant to help MOST newbies to the law school process understand the risks, that they already understand the risks and are cool with them.


That would be one group, people who know absolutely nothing would be the other.

I don't know about the rest of you, but that was me when I first came to this site. I wanted to go to law school, I knew I could do well on the LSAT, and I knew that I could get a big scholarship somewhere. That was about it. I applied too late, I kinda-sorta applied to the right schools, and my decision making process was roundabout at best. It was only as I really got into the nitty-gritty of this forum that I realized what my decision should be, and that's only because my fluency and comfort with internet snark is higher than most.

People don't come here for a pep talk, or to be given vague equivocal advice. They come to learn things from their fellow applicants. I think a broad overview of that advise at the outset would be helpful.

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bk1
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Re: TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

Postby bk1 » Mon May 03, 2010 5:54 pm

DerrickRose wrote:I think a broad overview of that advise at the outset would be helpful.


I believe you have two options in this regard, though I suspect you will take the former. You can either settle on a list yourself, or you can boil it down to a large list and make a poll where people are told to choose which ones they believe represent the "wisdom" (obviously with multi-voting being an option). The latter seems to be the best way to get a representative view of the board and avoid as much bias as possible.

Another thing I would say is that scholarships throw a big wrench in things. The differing amounts each person can get from 2 schools, let alone 3 or more, makes it hard to give equivocal advice due to the astronomically high variability. Hence I would try and avoid scholarship discussions except to say something like "don't choose anything less than T6 over school A on a full ride" or "choose school B at sticker over every school except T6" as examples.

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GATORTIM
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Re: TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

Postby GATORTIM » Mon May 03, 2010 5:57 pm

ArthurEdens wrote:The premise of this thread sickens me. Pretentiousness and groupthink by kids fresh out of college.

Rawlsian
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Re: TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

Postby Rawlsian » Mon May 03, 2010 6:10 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:4. I have a pet idea for creating a TWhatever-type system that incorporates more than the top schools. That way people could use the "rankings" concept in a more accurate, localized sense. For example:
The "Chi21" would be the T18 plus WUSTL/ND/Illinois
The "East22" would be the T18 plus BU/BC/GW/Fordham
The "Cal21" would be the T18 plus UCI/UCH/UCD
and so on.
Just a random idea. Whatever thoughts you have on that would be appreciated.

If you actually do this, the T18 is probably not the best cutoff. If I wanted Chicago, I'd rather be top 10% at Iowa, Wisonsin, or even Kent than top 10% at USC.


For this reason, among others, this would be impossible.

There is no clear data on 1) where the students originate from, 2) where the student that originates from state X ends up exactly, and 3) in what capacity.

I see your idea and it is interesting. However making blanket assertions beyond the fact that the T14 are best for big law without additional evidence is pretty weak at best.

i.e. Vanderbilt places around 7% in Chicago. Is Vanderbilt a better choice for Chicago than UIUC? There is no data. True Vanderbilt places more in big law, but only a small portion of its students end up in Chicago. Without knowing their 1) rank and 2) what capacity they are working in, the study would have no value and would potentially mislead students.

or

recommending USC or UCLA over other regional schools in their home markets. Depending on where you want to work, UIUC>USC/UCLA or Emory>USC/UCLA.

For the purposes of national OCI, USC/UCLA/Vanderbilt should not be included. True Vanderbilt has a high big law potential, but it has not clout in CA and probably little in IL.

Essentially what I'm saying is that the study is useless and therefore I hope that you do not dedicate a lot of time that you could be spending on more fruitful endeavors on it.


Vanderbilt is a national school. Consider this list of the top seven destinations for Vandy grads over the past five years:

TN: 143 grads (less than 20% of grads)
NY: 82
GA: 67
DC: 63
TX: 50
IL: 46
CA: 42

I think Vandy is popular with with Southern students, so a lot of prospects interested in practicing in the South self-select there. But Vandy alums are spread out throughout the country much more than several of the t-14s. To say Cornell is a national school and Vandy is not is silly.

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chris0805
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Re: TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

Postby chris0805 » Mon May 03, 2010 6:37 pm

ArthurEdens wrote:The premise of this thread sickens me. Pretentiousness and groupthink by kids fresh out of college.

If anyone has seen the documentary '49 up' (latest in a series that has followed Brits every 7 years since the age of 7), the mentality of some here matches up with that of the rich kids when they were 7. They felt entitled and sure of themselves. As the series progressed every 7 years, the smugness went away as they slowly realized "life is hard, I can't rest on my not-so-important laurels." I guarantee many T14 students are going to get smoked in the workforce by those they currently thumb their noses at.

/going to a top law school, so this isn't jealousy speaking.


I think you misunderstand at least some of the thoughts on this thread. It's exactly because life is hard that law school is a bad idea for a great many people.

To get the job you would like (not necessarily first choice), whether that be in Biglaw, PI, gov't, etc. you have to be able to outsmart and outwork about half of the students if you attend a T10 school these days.

There are some schools, and I'm not calling any particular school out, where you can do the same thing, but you'd have to outwork about 95 % of your classmates.

No one is saying they can rest on their laurels. Succeeding in law school is harder than most people think. If you go to a T10 school, you still have to work pretty damn hard to get the job you want, and you still might not get it. At a school where it's top %5 or bust, I personally think it's not worth going. Law school is too expensive and time consuming to gamble with those kinds of odds.

I want to finish by saying that there are some "lower ranked" schools that provide great opportunities to their graduates. My thoughts aren't about T10 vs. everywhere else. They're about specific schools that are a poor investment because they are (1) expensive and (2) provide poor opportunities for their students.
Last edited by chris0805 on Mon May 03, 2010 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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GATORTIM
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Re: TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

Postby GATORTIM » Mon May 03, 2010 6:43 pm

chris0805 wrote:To get the job you would like (not necessarily first choice), whether that be in Biglaw, PI, gov't, etc.


what exactly does this mean?

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chris0805
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Re: TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

Postby chris0805 » Mon May 03, 2010 6:50 pm

gatortim wrote:
chris0805 wrote:To get the job you would like (not necessarily first choice), whether that be in Biglaw, PI, gov't, etc.


what exactly does this mean?


It means a job resembling the field/type of job you hoped to get when you began law school. Some jobs are less interested in your grades, but then you have to be "special" in other ways. Fact is, to get what most consider a "good" legal job these days, you need to distinguish yourself, no matter where you go.

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NU_Jet55
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Re: TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

Postby NU_Jet55 » Mon May 03, 2010 6:53 pm

ArthurEdens wrote:The premise of this thread sickens me. Pretentiousness and groupthink by kids fresh out of college.

If anyone has seen the documentary '49 up' (latest in a series that has followed Brits every 7 years since the age of 7), the mentality of some here matches up with that of the rich kids when they were 7. They felt entitled and sure of themselves. As the series progressed every 7 years, the smugness went away as they slowly realized "life is hard, I can't rest on my not-so-important laurels." I guarantee many T14 students are going to get smoked in the workforce by those they currently thumb their noses at.

/going to a top law school, so this isn't jealousy speaking.


Conventional Wisdom #???: Don't be this guy.

ughOSU
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Re: TLS Conventional Wisdom Collection Agency

Postby ughOSU » Mon May 03, 2010 10:36 pm

I think this thread should have a more appropriate name, something like "The TLS Kool-Aid" or something.




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