With a full scholarship - how far down USNWR would you go? Forum

[bluebonnet21]

I would take a full-ride at SMU over some higher ranked options because I would be happy practicing in Dallas. There are quite a few schools ranked above SMU that I wouldn't take at any cost though. For me there isn't a specific cut-off ranking. Schools in the lower T1 are so regional that drawing some sort of bright-line doesn't make much sense to me.

[BigA]

Where are you getting that number from? I haven't heard it at all, that there are going to be 30,000 jobs available.

In this thread, second page:

There are 30,000 legal jobs out there this year for 43,000 graduates.

It's not the first time I've heard that figure on these boards either. Where they got it, I don't know. People have cited it to show the amount of JDs who won't get work, but it's actually a lot more optimistic than the picture you paint, unfortunately. I really appreciate your posts. That was great. I didn't mean to sound otherwise. I'm sure you didn't mean to yell or talk down to me in that previous post. If I sound ignorant though, I probably am.

[DerrickRose]

Where are you getting that number from? I haven't heard it at all, that there are going to be 30,000 jobs available.

In this thread, second page:

There are 30,000 legal jobs out there this year for 43,000 graduates.

It's not the first time I've heard that figure on these boards either. Where they got it, I don't know. People have cited it to show the amount of JDs who won't get work, but it's actually a lot more optimistic than the picture you paint, unfortunately. I really appreciate your posts. That was great. I didn't mean to sound otherwise. I'm sure you didn't mean to yell or talk down to me in that previous post. If I sound ignorant though, I probably am.

I think the other point that is important to note is that even back in the halcyon days when there were enough BigLaw jobs for seemingly everyone in the T14, there were NEVER enough legal jobs to go around for all the TTT grads. Even in the most boom of boom times. Not even close at a lot of schools.

The ABA has set up a system where they will always be giving out a ton of JD's to people who can't (not won't, CAN'T) ever work as lawyers.

[Hey-O]

T34.

[PhantaManta]

Advice in this thread is poor.

[jdhonest]

I don't think the decision can easily be explained by how low I would go. For example, I'd take a full ride to South Carolina (given that I had no decent and economically viable options), because the cost of living is so low I'd be able to take really small loans out to cover my 3 years there, and leave with a JD for very little (waiting tables or bartending 5-6 nights a week per month could cover your rent). On the other hand, the same can't be said for any school in NY because the COL is so high that using loans to cover it would be so expensive as to make the degree a not so sound investment i.e. 60k in debt for a degree from St Johns that I can't get a job with wouldn't be worth it.

Anyone else see it this way?

[PhantaManta]

lol @ assuming you can't get a job from St. John's.

[BigA]

I don't think it can be easily explained, because it really depends on what your next best option might be. Someone who has no real prospects from their bachelor's degree and is working at Denny's is gonna be more willing to take a risk and go further down the pay scale than someone who is turning down an 80,000 a year engineer job. In those cases turning down a full scholly from anything non-top 14 might make sense.

[DerrickRose]

lol @ assuming you can't get a job from St. John's.

I'd be shocked if more than 60% or so of St Johns grads were employed in real legal jobs in any given year.

[articulably suspect]

As everyone has stated, it depends. There are some T1's and certainly T2's that would problably leave a recent graduate with less opportunities than some T3's would.

[PhantaManta]

By February 2009, all 276 members of the Class of 2008 reported their employment status to the Office of Career Services. Of these 276 graduates, 241 were employed, and 10 were pursuing post-graduate degrees. The placement rate at nine months after graduation was 96%.

* Law Firms: 140/241 (58.1%)
* Government: 40/241 (16.6%)
* Military: 0/241 (0.0%)
* Business and Industry: 36/241 (14.9%)
* Judicial Clerkships: 10/241 (4.1%)
* Public Interest: 8/241 (3.3%)
* Academic: 7/241 (2.9%)

[jdhonest]

* Law Firms: 140/241 (58.1%)--that's a lot of coffee makers and paralegals
* Government: 40/241 (16.6%)--the New Jersey DMV has always welcomed employees with diverse interests
* Military: 0/241 (0.0%)
* Business and Industry: 36/241 (14.9%)--"Which type, if any, of fries would you like conveyed with that"
* Judicial Clerkships: 10/241 (4.1%)--Judge Judy needs more help than I thought
* Public Interest: 8/241 (3.3%) - I got nothing, which is about what they probably make...
* Academic: 7/241 (2.9%)--"So class, what kind of cause of action does Jack have against the bean seller? Anyone...?"

[/quote]

[DerrickRose]

* Law Firms: 140/241 (58.1%)--that's a lot of coffee makers and paralegals
* Government: 40/241 (16.6%)--the New Jersey DMV has always welcomed employees with diverse interests
* Military: 0/241 (0.0%)
* Business and Industry: 36/241 (14.9%)--"Which type, if any, of fries would you like conveyed with that"
* Judicial Clerkships: 10/241 (4.1%)--Judge Judy needs more help than I thought
* Public Interest: 8/241 (3.3%) - I got nothing, which is about what they probably make...
* Academic: 7/241 (2.9%)--"So class, what kind of cause of action does Jack have against the bean seller? Anyone...?"

As so often happens the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

And with regard to those actually employed, how many of them are struggling under the weight of their debt?

[PhantaManta]

* Law Firms: 140/241 (58.1%)--that's a lot of coffee makers and paralegals
* Government: 40/241 (16.6%)--the New Jersey DMV has always welcomed employees with diverse interests
* Military: 0/241 (0.0%)
* Business and Industry: 36/241 (14.9%)--"Which type, if any, of fries would you like conveyed with that"
* Judicial Clerkships: 10/241 (4.1%)--Judge Judy needs more help than I thought
* Public Interest: 8/241 (3.3%) - I got nothing, which is about what they probably make...
* Academic: 7/241 (2.9%)--"So class, what kind of cause of action does Jack have against the bean seller? Anyone...?"

[/quote]

Another useless post.

[jdhonest]

* Law Firms: 140/241 (58.1%)--that's a lot of coffee makers and paralegals
* Government: 40/241 (16.6%)--the New Jersey DMV has always welcomed employees with diverse interests
* Military: 0/241 (0.0%)
* Business and Industry: 36/241 (14.9%)--"Which type, if any, of fries would you like conveyed with that"
* Judicial Clerkships: 10/241 (4.1%)--Judge Judy needs more help than I thought
* Public Interest: 8/241 (3.3%) - I got nothing, which is about what they probably make...
* Academic: 7/241 (2.9%)--"So class, what kind of cause of action does Jack have against the bean seller? Anyone...?"

Another useless post.[/quote]


with a response from a seemingly useless poster...

[PhantaManta]

* Law Firms: 140/241 (58.1%)--that's a lot of coffee makers and paralegals
* Government: 40/241 (16.6%)--the New Jersey DMV has always welcomed employees with diverse interests
* Military: 0/241 (0.0%)
* Business and Industry: 36/241 (14.9%)--"Which type, if any, of fries would you like conveyed with that"
* Judicial Clerkships: 10/241 (4.1%)--Judge Judy needs more help than I thought
* Public Interest: 8/241 (3.3%) - I got nothing, which is about what they probably make...
* Academic: 7/241 (2.9%)--"So class, what kind of cause of action does Jack have against the bean seller? Anyone...?"

As so often happens the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

And with regard to those actually employed, how many of them are struggling under the weight of their debt?

My original post regarding St. John's was in response to someone assuming $60k in debt, which I think is pretty manageable (on average) from St. John's. Obviously, any amount of debt you have when graduating from the bottom 1/3 of any law school is going to leave you in a precarious situation, but taking such a risk is usually an okay idea if your alternative employment prospects are, shall we say, 'lacking'.

[PhantaManta]

* Law Firms: 140/241 (58.1%)--that's a lot of coffee makers and paralegals
* Government: 40/241 (16.6%)--the New Jersey DMV has always welcomed employees with diverse interests
* Military: 0/241 (0.0%)
* Business and Industry: 36/241 (14.9%)--"Which type, if any, of fries would you like conveyed with that"
* Judicial Clerkships: 10/241 (4.1%)--Judge Judy needs more help than I thought
* Public Interest: 8/241 (3.3%) - I got nothing, which is about what they probably make...
* Academic: 7/241 (2.9%)--"So class, what kind of cause of action does Jack have against the bean seller? Anyone...?"

Another useless post.

with a response from a seemingly useless poster...[/quote]

I am only a useless poster when I bother responding to the continual stream of under informed posters who shower us with such non-sense as above within the first six months of registering at this site.

But I just can't help myself

[Always Credited]

lol @ assuming you can't get a job from St. John's.

I'd be shocked if more than 60% or so of St Johns grads were employed in real legal jobs in any given year.

[84Sunbird2000]

I do wish all schools would break down those categories more (like solo, 2-10, 11-25, 25-50, 51-100, 101-250, 251-500, 500+ for firms). I mean, NLJ 250 helps, but there are still quite a few 100+ firms that aren't in NLJ and still might pay 100-125k. Of course, you can find federal clerkship data as well, but all of that stuff should be in a clearinghouse. Or...what kind of PI (some schools include PDs, others don't) are people going into. Oh, well, most people on TLS would like specific breakdowns, but for most schools it just ain't happening.

That being said, I have no doubt that considerably more than 60% of St. John's grads are employed in legal-related jobs. 75% at absolute minimum seems more fair given the breakdowns. C'mon, do people really think that even a significant minority of those gov't jobs are not JD-required jobs?? However, because of NYC COL, just having a legal job is merely necessary but not sufficient (to live decently).

[splitterhopeful]

I would take South Carolina with a full scholarship even though it just dropped out of the top 100.

1) I'm from North Carolina and would like to stay in the South
2) I currently have 2 part-time jobs: one for $11.50 an hour and one for $10 an hour, so I am making maybe a little over 20k before taxes right now despite graduating in 2008.
3) USC is the only accredited school in South Carolina, so there is little competition.
4) Columbia's COL isn't that much.

[vanwinkle]

I'm sure you didn't mean to yell or talk down to me in that previous post. If I sound ignorant though, I probably am.

I apologize for that tone. I'm just really frustrated with making what feels like the same point again and again. Not to you, but to everyone on TLS.

I also really wonder about the 30,000 number. I see where it was cited on here, but I have no idea where it's from. And as I mentioned, there are things decreasing the job pool even further (deferrals making it less necessary for employers to hire this cycle) and increasing the pool of jobhunters (recent layoffs to the tune of about 20,000 lawyers in the last year or two). The 20,000 number I saw on AboveTheLaw. I've googled trying to find it but I can't, so I admit that I can't back that up. All of this is having ripple effects that will continue for some time, as firms hire and defer now as they absorb past deferrals, and so on and so forth. It'll take years to get things back to where they were, and until then, everything should be treated as uncertain.

It's also that people think of certain things as "safe" and they're not. Making LR at a T1? Not safe. Being at a T14? Not safe. As employers have more people to choose from they're getting pickier. Yes, you can still get a job with top grades and being at a top-tier law school, but if they see something about you they don't like, they can go somewhere else. It's a hell of a lot harder to find work in this environment. It's not that you can't get jobs with that kind of performance, it's that it's not enough anymore. On top of all that you need solid interviewing skills, or personal connections, or previous work experience, or even all of those things. You could be out of the running despite your good performance in classes, because they're not just looking at classes anymore.

[vanwinkle]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, just hold up. You're seriously saying shit is bad right now?

Not for you. You're a diversity hire, being half-unicorn and all.

[holydonkey]

I'm sure you didn't mean to yell or talk down to me in that previous post. If I sound ignorant though, I probably am.

I apologize for that tone. I'm just really frustrated with making what feels like the same point again and again. Not to you, but to everyone on TLS.

I also really wonder about the 30,000 number. I see where it was cited on here, but I have no idea where it's from. And as I mentioned, there are things decreasing the job pool even further (deferrals making it less necessary for employers to hire this cycle) and increasing the pool of jobhunters (recent layoffs to the tune of about 20,000 lawyers in the last year or two). The 20,000 number I saw on AboveTheLaw. I've googled trying to find it but I can't, so I admit that I can't back that up. All of this is having ripple effects that will continue for some time, as firms hire and defer now as they absorb past deferrals, and so on and so forth. It'll take years to get things back to where they were, and until then, everything should be treated as uncertain.

It's also that people think of certain things as "safe" and they're not. Making LR at a T1? Not safe. Being at a T14? Not safe. As employers have more people to choose from they're getting pickier. Yes, you can still get a job with top grades and being at a top-tier law school, but if they see something about you they don't like, they can go somewhere else. It's a hell of a lot harder to find work in this environment. It's not that you can't get jobs with that kind of performance, it's that it's not enough anymore. On top of all that you need solid interviewing skills, or personal connections, or previous work experience, or even all of those things. You could be out of the running despite your good performance in classes, because they're not just looking at classes anymore.

Not that I'm saying it's accurate, but here's a link for the 30,000 number:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/colleg ... chools.php

The basic problem is that people rack up an average $92,000 in debt (for private law schools) because of the implied promise of a high-paying job at the end. Except that industry predications indicate that there are likely to be less than 30,000 legal jobs available per year. Some 45,000 people graduate from law school every year.

And the original LA times article Washington Monthly quotes:
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/08 ... -2010jan08

From 2004 through 2008, the field grew less than 1% per year on average, going from 735,000 people making a living as attorneys to just 760,000, with the Bureau of Labor Statistics postulating that the field will grow at the same rate through 2016. Taking into account retirements, deaths and that the bureau's data is pre-recession, the number of new positions is likely to be fewer than 30,000 per year. That is far fewer than what's needed to accommodate the 45,000 juris doctors graduating from U.S. law schools each year.

[vanwinkle]

Not that I'm saying it's accurate, but here's a link for the 30,000 number:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/colleg ... chools.php

The basic problem is that people rack up an average $92,000 in debt (for private law schools) because of the implied promise of a high-paying job at the end. Except that industry predications indicate that there are likely to be less than 30,000 legal jobs available per year. Some 45,000 people graduate from law school every year.

I thank you for finding me a source for that. Two points to make for readers:

1) It says "less than 30,000" indicating the assumption should be that it'll be below that, not above that.

2) What the fuck are "industry predications"? Proofreading: It's what's for dinner.

[holydonkey]

Not that I'm saying it's accurate, but here's a link for the 30,000 number:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/colleg ... chools.php

The basic problem is that people rack up an average $92,000 in debt (for private law schools) because of the implied promise of a high-paying job at the end. Except that industry predications indicate that there are likely to be less than 30,000 legal jobs available per year. Some 45,000 people graduate from law school every year.

2) What the fuck are "industry predications"? Proofreading: It's what's for dinner.

Just added an edit, from LA Times article, #s are from Bureau of Labor Statistics.