USD or Loyola LA

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Loyola vs. USD

Loyola LA
15
60%
University of San Diego
10
40%
 
Total votes: 25

pegleg
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USD or Loyola LA

Postby pegleg » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:34 pm

I would like to practice in the Bay Area, and I'm definitely planning to transfer to a higher ranked UC if I do well my first year.

What do you think of the campuses, law libraries, and classrooms of each?

I have 23k at Loyola, no financial aid award yet from USD.

*edit* HA! I got my financial aid award from USD today and it was also 23k!

*edit* There seems to be a strong consensus that these schools would be a bad decision for someone who wants to work in the Bay Area. I called the career services departments at both to ask for data on how many graduates who sought employment in the bay area actually obtained positions; neither had the information off hand but said they will look it up and call me back with the info. Stay tuned.

*edit* I got a call back from USD's assistant director in the career services department. She's a very nice lady and we had a good talk (don't hestitate to call if you have any questions about this process). She told me USD has a "strong" alumni base in San Francisco and that although more than 60% of the students choose to stay in Southern California, for those that want go to San Francisco/Palo Alto and around the bay area it is common and possible. She told me if that was the case they would work with me to obtain 1L and 2L summer jobs at Bay Area firms. I'll update again if Loyola calls me back.
Last edited by pegleg on Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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arhmcpo
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby arhmcpo » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:42 pm

Your goal is to transfer... in this case the better school is also financially a better deal aka you should go to Loyola.

You should try to avoid debt and go to a school that is good enough to want to graduate from if you don't have good enough grades to transfer. I would expect Loyola LA, while not great, would give you a better shot of networking and employment opportunities in norcal than USD. USD grades cluster around San Diego so I would expect you would be doing yourself no favors by going there (plus its more expensive).

Why not go to Santa Clara, assuming you didn't get into UCD or UCH?

pegleg
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby pegleg » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:43 pm

arhmcpo wrote:Your goal is to transfer... in this case the better school is also financially a better deal aka you should go to Loyola.

You should try to avoid debt and go to a school that is good enough to want to graduate from if you don't have good enough grades to transfer. I would expect Loyola LA, while not great, would give you a better shot of networking and employment opportunities in norcal than USD. USD grades cluster around San Diego so I would expect you would be doing yourself no favors by going there (plus its more expensive).

Why not go to Santa Clara, assuming you didn't get into UCD or UCH?


Thanks I appreciate the advice. I don't see how Loyola would place any better in San Francisco than USD as they are both SoCal schools... I'm genuinely curious, why do you believe that?

Santa Clara is now ranked in the 90's, Loyola and USD are ranked in the 50's. I declined my SCU acceptance yesterday along with a 12k scholarhip. I also declined USF for similar reasons.

I would LOVE to go to UCD, but who the hell knows if I'll get in. I was waitlisted at Hastings... and it's looking like I may be waitlisted at UCD as well if the LSN graphs are accurate.
Last edited by pegleg on Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby quickquestionthanks » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:46 pm

I really liked the SD campus...most people do! It's beautiful, but not ostentatious. Pretty Catholic though, a lot of crosses.

Loyola is a concrete mess. And my alumni brother said their library is kinda shitty. Not that he spent much time there 8)

23k per year? If so, I'd definitely take that. Even if it's 23k for the first year, I would take that.

Otherwise, go to SD since they have better regional status for midlaw/govt jobs. I think a USD student would fair better in LA than Loyola student in SD. Work hard, do 0L prep (don't listen to ppl, you think you're not going to benefit from reading 1000+ pages on legal reasoning? just don't talk too much in class and act like a know-it-all), but be prepared to spend all 3 years at whatever school you pick. Not saying it won't happen. It just probably won't.

In this economy, you'll really only get a good legal job in SF if you're top 10%. In which case, it doesn't matter which school. Plan based on contingencies.

pegleg
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby pegleg » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:59 pm

quickquestionthanks wrote:I really liked the SD campus...most people do! It's beautiful, but not ostentatious. Pretty Catholic though, a lot of crosses.

Loyola is a concrete mess. And my alumni brother said their library is kinda shitty. Not that he spent much time there 8)

23k per year? If so, I'd definitely take that. Even if it's 23k for the first year, I would take that.

Otherwise, go to SD since they have better regional status for midlaw/govt jobs. I think a USD student would fair better in LA than Loyola student in SD. Work hard, do 0L prep (don't listen to ppl, you think you're not going to benefit from reading 1000+ pages on legal reasoning? just don't talk too much in class and act like a know-it-all), but be prepared to spend all 3 years at whatever school you pick. Not saying it won't happen. It just probably won't.

In this economy, you'll really only get a good legal job in SF if you're top 10%. In which case, it doesn't matter which school. Plan based on contingencies.


To be clear, I haven't yet received my financial aid award from USD, so I will tentatively assume that it will be comparable to Loyola's (if it's not, I won't be going).

Regarding being in the top percentile: I have no expectation of doing that well, but will direct everything I've got towards that goal. I would like a better school than USD or Loyola LA on my diploma for greater mobility in obtaining both my first job and other jobs down the line, but again I'm not counting on transfering. Thanks for the insight.

pegleg
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby pegleg » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:00 pm

quickquestionthanks wrote:I really liked the SD campus...most people do! It's beautiful, but not ostentatious. Pretty Catholic though, a lot of crosses.

Loyola is a concrete mess. And my alumni brother said their library is kinda shitty. Not that he spent much time there 8)

23k per year? If so, I'd definitely take that. Even if it's 23k for the first year, I would take that.

Otherwise, go to SD since they have better regional status for midlaw/govt jobs. I think a USD student would fair better in LA than Loyola student in SD. Work hard, do 0L prep (don't listen to ppl, you think you're not going to benefit from reading 1000+ pages on legal reasoning? just don't talk too much in class and act like a know-it-all), but be prepared to spend all 3 years at whatever school you pick. Not saying it won't happen. It just probably won't.

In this economy, you'll really only get a good legal job in SF if you're top 10%. In which case, it doesn't matter which school. Plan based on contingencies.


Also, what do you recommend for 0L prep? I'm currently reading "Getting to Maybe" but a lot of it is going over my head because I haven't started studying the black letter law yet. Should I buy the default texts for my courses in the fall and start reading those?

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DerrickRose
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby DerrickRose » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:05 pm

pegleg wrote:I would like to practice in the Bay Area, and I'm definitely planning to transfer to a higher ranked UC if I do well my first year.


pegleg wrote:Santa Clara is now ranked in the 90's, Loyola and USD are ranked in the 50's. I declined my SCU acceptance yesterday along with a 12k scholarhip. I also declined USF for similar reasons.


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arhmcpo
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby arhmcpo » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:05 pm

pegleg wrote:Thanks I appreciate the advice. I don't see how Loyola would place any better in San Francisco than USD as they are both SoCal schools... I'm genuinely curious, why do you believe that?

Santa Clara is now ranked in the 90's, Loyola and USD are ranked in the 50's. I declined my SCU acceptance yesterday along with a 12k scholarhip. I also declined USF for similar reasons.

I would LOVE to go to UCD, but who the hell knows if I'll get in. I was waitlisted at Hastings... and it's looking like I may be waitlisted at UCD as well if the LSN graphs are accurate.


Rankings are irrelevant to everyone but incoming law students when your talking ranked 50+. You just turned down a respected norcal school in Santa Clara (regardless of their ranking) that by the way- places their grads in the bay area which is where you want to work and live.

Anyways, I think Loyola would be the better option over USD because (1) better financially, (2) larger alumni network. Coming out of these 2 socal schools you are probably not gonna get a decent job in norcal based on merit, its gonna be about networking and luck. Since Loyola graduates way more people and has a large alumni base as a result, you have improved chances of finding help up there in a job search from alumni IMO (aka there are more practicing Loyola lawyers in norcal than from USD)

Also I strongly doubt that USD will match Loyola's scholarship offer going off of anecdotal TLS evidence

pegleg
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby pegleg » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:13 pm

arhmcpo wrote:
pegleg wrote:Thanks I appreciate the advice. I don't see how Loyola would place any better in San Francisco than USD as they are both SoCal schools... I'm genuinely curious, why do you believe that?

Santa Clara is now ranked in the 90's, Loyola and USD are ranked in the 50's. I declined my SCU acceptance yesterday along with a 12k scholarhip. I also declined USF for similar reasons.

I would LOVE to go to UCD, but who the hell knows if I'll get in. I was waitlisted at Hastings... and it's looking like I may be waitlisted at UCD as well if the LSN graphs are accurate.


Rankings are irrelevant to everyone but incoming law students when your talking ranked 50+. You just turned down a respected norcal school in Santa Clara (regardless of their ranking) that by the way- places their grads in the bay area which is where you want to work and live.


SCU could become a tier 3 school next year (actually any of the schools I applied to could, but it is the most likely of the bunch). Transfering from a 93 school up is also more difficult than from a higher ranked school. Plus, SCU is quite expensive and I got a better aid offer from Loyola so... yeah, SCU was not on the table after that.

I believe that rankings could be important to potential employers, although with schools that are not in the top 50 perhaps the law firms that would consider you are more discriminating about grades rather than the school you attended... in which case it still doesn't mean I should have picked SCU over higher ranked schools in SoCal in order to be better positioned for a Bay Area job.

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby quickquestionthanks » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:28 pm

Yeah, I made my post before I saw that you turned down both SCU and USF.

I'd call them right now and tell them you made a mistake if you have your heart set on SF. You just took three steps backwards.

pegleg
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby pegleg » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:33 pm

quickquestionthanks wrote:Yeah, I made my post before I saw that you turned down both SCU and USF.

I'd call them right now and tell them you made a mistake if you have your heart set on SF. You just took three steps backwards.


Heart isn't set on SF per se, just the Bay Area. I'll think about it, but they are both really low on the rankings. If I end up doing well and wanted to transfer to an out of state private school (T-10) or to a UC it's more strategic to do so from a better school. This is purely anecdotal, but a current USD 2L told me that he got a Bay Area law firm job and mobility throughout the state was fine if you have good grades.

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby quickquestionthanks » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:42 pm

pegleg wrote:
quickquestionthanks wrote:Yeah, I made my post before I saw that you turned down both SCU and USF.

I'd call them right now and tell them you made a mistake if you have your heart set on SF. You just took three steps backwards.


Heart isn't set on SF per se, just the Bay Area. I'll think about it, but they are both really low on the rankings. If I end up doing well and wanted to transfer to an out of state private school (T-10) or to a UC it's more strategic to do so from a better school. This is purely anecdotal, but a current USD 2L told me that he got a Bay Area law firm job and mobility throughout the state was fine if you have good grades.



I hope you're right, as I'm depositing there soon. It would be SF or bust for me, no interest in living in Walnut Creek.

pegleg
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby pegleg » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:45 pm

quickquestionthanks wrote:
pegleg wrote:
quickquestionthanks wrote:Yeah, I made my post before I saw that you turned down both SCU and USF.

I'd call them right now and tell them you made a mistake if you have your heart set on SF. You just took three steps backwards.


Heart isn't set on SF per se, just the Bay Area. I'll think about it, but they are both really low on the rankings. If I end up doing well and wanted to transfer to an out of state private school (T-10) or to a UC it's more strategic to do so from a better school. This is purely anecdotal, but a current USD 2L told me that he got a Bay Area law firm job and mobility throughout the state was fine if you have good grades.



I hope you're right, as I'm depositing there soon. It would be SF or bust for me, no interest in living in Walnut Creek.


Depositing at USD, USF or SCU? (Walnut Creek isn't my ideal either, but Oakland would be nice. Hell SF would be great but I'm not tied to it.)

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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby missinglink » Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:03 pm

pegleg wrote:
arhmcpo wrote:
pegleg wrote:Thanks I appreciate the advice. I don't see how Loyola would place any better in San Francisco than USD as they are both SoCal schools... I'm genuinely curious, why do you believe that?

Santa Clara is now ranked in the 90's, Loyola and USD are ranked in the 50's. I declined my SCU acceptance yesterday along with a 12k scholarhip. I also declined USF for similar reasons.

I would LOVE to go to UCD, but who the hell knows if I'll get in. I was waitlisted at Hastings... and it's looking like I may be waitlisted at UCD as well if the LSN graphs are accurate.


Rankings are irrelevant to everyone but incoming law students when your talking ranked 50+. You just turned down a respected norcal school in Santa Clara (regardless of their ranking) that by the way- places their grads in the bay area which is where you want to work and live.


SCU could become a tier 3 school next year (actually any of the schools I applied to could, but it is the most likely of the bunch). Transfering from a 93 school up is also more difficult than from a higher ranked school. Plus, SCU is quite expensive and I got a better aid offer from Loyola so... yeah, SCU was not on the table after that.

I believe that rankings could be important to potential employers, although with schools that are not in the top 50 perhaps the law firms that would consider you are more discriminating about grades rather than the school you attended... in which case it still doesn't mean I should have picked SCU over higher ranked schools in SoCal in order to be better positioned for a Bay Area job.


I wouldn't knock SCU on the difference in the rankings. But, I would knock it on the requirements they attach to their scholarships - top 25% is rough. If your plan is to transfer, at least go somewhere where you would be able to minimize debt. So if you're can't transfer, you won't be paying sticker for a T2.

Anyways, I've seen some anecdotal claims that Loyola has some policies that are designed to actively discourage transfers out of the school. You might want to search through the archives here, I think it was a post from someone who transferred out of LLS.

I voted for USD, but I think your prospects out of either school are roughly the same, just in different regions of southern California. If transferring doesn't work out, you've got to ask yourself which one you would be most happy graduating from.

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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby quickquestionthanks » Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:06 am

pegleg wrote:Depositing at USD, USF or SCU? (Walnut Creek isn't my ideal either, but Oakland would be nice. Hell SF would be great but I'm not tied to it.)


SD. I haven't even heard back from SF, which is sort of surprising as I'm a legacy several times over. Rent would be free for me, so with a reasonable scholarship, I would seriously entertain it...

pegleg
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby pegleg » Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:22 pm

quickquestionthanks wrote:
pegleg wrote:Depositing at USD, USF or SCU? (Walnut Creek isn't my ideal either, but Oakland would be nice. Hell SF would be great but I'm not tied to it.)


SD. I haven't even heard back from SF, which is sort of surprising as I'm a legacy several times over. Rent would be free for me, so with a reasonable scholarship, I would seriously entertain it...


I got a 23k scholarship from SD today so, it has sealed the deal. If you are worried about employment prospects in SF you should call their career department. I did so and had a good talk with their assistant director.

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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby Norwood » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:35 am

Just curious, if you transfer don't you lose the scholarship that you earned during your 1L? For instance, if you go to USD and transfer, you would owe that 23k scholarship back to USD?

edit: nm, someone just mentioned this policy a few posts up. Pardon me for not reading every post hehe.

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby quickquestionthanks » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:42 am

Norwood wrote:Just curious, if you transfer don't you lose the scholarship that you earned during your 1L? For instance, if you go to USD and transfer, you would owe that 23k scholarship back to USD?

edit: nm, someone just mentioned this policy a few posts up. Pardon me for not reading every post hehe.


Does anyone have specific information about SD's grants and transferring?

Norwood
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby Norwood » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:46 am

I would be cautious about attending one of these schools if you are deadset on employment in the Bay Area IMMEDIATELY after law school. I have a friend, very bright, who is graduating from Loyola this May and is definitely set on moving back to the Bay Area. He grew up here in the Bay and only attended Loyola because it was "higher" ranking than the others. He said it was a mistake because he didn't have TLS or anyone telling him how regional law schools really were. He said that even if you rank high in your class, say top 10%, firms in the Bay will still be willing to hire someone at top 10% out of USF or SCU over you... eventhough Loyola is a higher ranking school. Just putting this out there, of course this is by no means the rule.

btw, congrats on both offers. good luck with your decision.

pegleg
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby pegleg » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:23 pm

quickquestionthanks wrote:
Norwood wrote:Just curious, if you transfer don't you lose the scholarship that you earned during your 1L? For instance, if you go to USD and transfer, you would owe that 23k scholarship back to USD?

edit: nm, someone just mentioned this policy a few posts up. Pardon me for not reading every post hehe.


Does anyone have specific information about SD's grants and transferring?


I'm going to call the financial aid office on Monday and ask them to fax me any and all stipulations on their grants.
Last edited by pegleg on Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pegleg
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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby pegleg » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:28 pm

Norwood wrote:Just curious, if you transfer don't you lose the scholarship that you earned during your 1L? For instance, if you go to USD and transfer, you would owe that 23k scholarship back to USD?

edit: nm, someone just mentioned this policy a few posts up. Pardon me for not reading every post hehe.


What do you mean "someone mentioned this policy?" I don't see anything mentioned about USD stipulations on financial aid in this thread. I would be very :cry: if that was true.

What I do know is that my award is guaranteed for just the first year if I maintain a 2.5, which brings my 1L tuition to 18k. That is ideal for me because I want to transfer to a T-10. Even if the transfer doesn't happen, and I somehow cannot find a job in the Bay Area out of USD, it won't be the end of the world to have to work in Southern California.

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Re: USD or Loyola LA

Postby Norwood » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:46 pm

I wasn't specifically pointing the policy to USD, just pointing out that someone mentioned the general policy. Below.

missinglink wrote:Anyways, I've seen some anecdotal claims that Loyola has some policies that are designed to actively discourage transfers out of the school. You might want to search through the archives here, I think it was a post from someone who transferred out of LLS.


I wouldn't be surprised if USD had some sort of policy to keep you from using their scholarship to earn a cheap education and then leaving them for a better school. Let us know what you find out on monday.




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