Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

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Andrew the Wolverine
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Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby Andrew the Wolverine » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:09 pm

These are my 3 options right now. I don't really have a geographic preference, so I want the school that will give me the most options nationally in case I decide later where I'd like to practice. I know they're all pretty regional schools, so I don't know how they differ in terms of national job placement. Thanks.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby DerrickRose » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:14 pm

None of those have anything resembling a national reach.

Iowa is great in Iowa, if you do really well you can break into good Chicago jobs, and there is some spillover into Minnesota and Northern Illinois.

Wisconsin is awesome for Wisconsin considering you don't have to take the bar. Not so much anywhere else. You'll have to do real well to get into big firms in Chicago or Minneapolis.

UNC isn't the best school in NC, but very few Dookies stay there. Its a pretty respected name down the South Atlantic coast, I have heard they do pretty well in Atlanta. I don't know about DC, but I'd imagine its pretty tough.

I'll be blunt. You don't have good enough numbers to decide where you want to practice after you're already in school.

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baboon309
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby baboon309 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:19 pm

DerrickRose wrote:None of those have anything resembling a national reach.

Iowa is great in Iowa, if you do really well you can break into good Chicago jobs, and there is some spillover into Minnesota and Northern Illinois.

Wisconsin is awesome for Wisconsin considering you don't have to take the bar. Not so much anywhere else. You'll have to do real well to get into big firms in Chicago or Minneapolis.

UNC isn't the best school in NC, but very few Dookies stay there. Its a pretty respected name down the South Atlantic coast, I have heard they do pretty well in Atlanta. I don't know about DC, but I'd imagine its pretty tough.

I'll be blunt. You don't have good enough numbers to decide where you want to practice after you're already in school.


UNC
Better lay prestige

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DerrickRose
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby DerrickRose » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:20 pm

baboon309 wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:None of those have anything resembling a national reach.

Iowa is great in Iowa, if you do really well you can break into good Chicago jobs, and there is some spillover into Minnesota and Northern Illinois.

Wisconsin is awesome for Wisconsin considering you don't have to take the bar. Not so much anywhere else. You'll have to do real well to get into big firms in Chicago or Minneapolis.

UNC isn't the best school in NC, but very few Dookies stay there. Its a pretty respected name down the South Atlantic coast, I have heard they do pretty well in Atlanta. I don't know about DC, but I'd imagine its pretty tough.

I'll be blunt. You don't have good enough numbers to decide where you want to practice after you're already in school.


UNC
Better lay prestige


Not in the midwest.

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webbylu87
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby webbylu87 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:27 pm

These are the statistics for Iowa. I couldn't find geographic placement information for the other schools.

Iowa
Employment by Georgraphic Region (2009)
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV) 12.97%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN) 0.54%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX) 2.16%
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY) 7.03%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA) 8.65%
Mid-Atlantic (NJ, NY, PA) 7.03%
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI) 18.38%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD) 42.70%
New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT) 0.00%
International 0.54%
Unknown 2.63%

In State 27.72%
Out of State 72.28%

I think Iowa's breadth of placement is pretty decent for a regional school. Only 2/3 of 2009 graduates are staying in the Midwest (with only half of those people remaining in Iowa). 1/3 of the class is leaving the Midwest.

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webbylu87
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby webbylu87 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:32 pm

DerrickRose wrote:None of those have anything resembling a national reach.

Iowa is great in Iowa, if you do really well you can break into good Chicago jobs, and there is some spillover into Minnesota and Northern Illinois.


I think looking at the statistics seems to be important here. Iowa is great in Iowa and yes a lot of grads do go to Chicago, but Iowa does have more breadth of placement than just the Midwest. With that said, the Midwest is where it's strongest and where the majority of graduates end up but clearly 1/3 of the c/o 2009 are venturing to other areas of the country. Clearly it can be done, just not easily and without connections.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby DerrickRose » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:35 pm

webbylu87 wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:None of those have anything resembling a national reach.

Iowa is great in Iowa, if you do really well you can break into good Chicago jobs, and there is some spillover into Minnesota and Northern Illinois.


I think looking at the statistics seems to be important here. Iowa is great in Iowa and yes a lot of grads do go to Chicago, but Iowa does have more breadth of placement than just the Midwest. With that said, the Midwest is where it's strongest and where the majority of graduates end up but clearly 1/3 of the c/o 2009 are venturing to other areas of the country. Clearly it can be done, just not easily and without connections.


Unless OP figures out right away where he wants to work and starts laying the ground work from Day 1, his options are going to be Iowa, Chicago if he gets good grades, and wherever he is from. Some other offer might come flying along, but it probably won't.

If OP wants to be on the West Coast, he needs to go to school there, same with the South, same with the Northeast.

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Panther7
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby Panther7 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:38 pm

Iowa and Wisconsin will open up the midwest pretty well, and UNC will open up the mid-atlantic pretty well.

Do you like midwestern life or east coast life? Now's the time to debate that question.

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webbylu87
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby webbylu87 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:45 pm

DerrickRose wrote:Unless OP figures out right away where he wants to work and starts laying the ground work from Day 1, his options are going to be Iowa, Chicago if he gets good grades, and wherever he is from. Some other offer might come flying along, but it probably won't.


Fair enough. As someone who will probably be attending Iowa in the fall but has their sights set on a career outside of the state I can respect this opinion. I don't think getting out of the state is necessarily as difficult as it's implied on TLS but it will take work and some combination of luck and good grades.

DerrickRose wrote:If OP wants to be on the West Coast, he needs to go to school there, same with the South, same with the Northeast.


Totally agreed. Iowa and Wisconsin will get you similar but slightly different opportunities in terms of geography. But of the two I'd have to say Iowa is the stronger in terms of mobility across the Midwest and the ability to get more prestigious jobs. For me this discussion would come down to Iowa vs. UNC without considering any scholarship information. Pick the school in the region you're most comfortable working in for the next 5-10 years and go there.

jle
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby jle » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:52 pm

I'm a 1L at UNC. I also applied to Iowa and Wisconsin, however chose UNC. I always thought Wisconsin was relatively limiting and didn't have a good feeling when visiting. Iowa has a new dean (who taught at UNC for a number of years) and has a better reach in Chicago. I thought the professors were very warm and welcoming at both UNC and Iowa - didn't get that impression from Wisconsin (despite being in-state).

For what it's worth, a good chunk is about networking and connections at this range. I have friends who are going all over the country as well. My two cents. Let me know if you need more information contrasting the three places.
Last edited by jle on Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jcunni5
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby jcunni5 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:04 pm

Unc by far Iowa is vastly overrated and wi is just good for wi I think unc gives u the strongest job prospects

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:17 pm

ITT: People inexplicably seem to believe that Iowa places better in Chicago than Wisconsin.

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tallboone
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby tallboone » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:20 pm

I just posted this on the UCLA for NYC employment thread, but UCLA, USC, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Iowa are all in the same consortium for off-campus interview events. Here is the info: --LinkRemoved--

So in one sense, Iowa and Wisconsin have the same national reach at UCLA and USC.

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traehekat
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby traehekat » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:33 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:ITT: People inexplicably seem to believe that Iowa places better in Chicago than Wisconsin.


+1. For Chicago, Wisconsin has a bit of an edge over Iowa, I think (but not much). However, I think beyond Chicago and Wisconsin, Iowa does better in the rest of the larger Midwestern markets.

Anyway, as far as national reach goes, none of these schools have much. I guess you could look to the assessment scores from a national panel of judges and lawyers, in which case you have Iowa and UNC tied with a 3.9, and Wisconsin with a 3.5. In the Vault rankings Iowa (19) is ahead of both UNC (23) and Wisconsin (25).

My gut says UNC has more lay prestige, followed by Wisconsin, followed VERY slightly by Iowa. Like I said though, ultimately it doesn't really matter cause they all have relatively low national reach anyway.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:36 pm

Iowa and Wisconsin are indistinguishable from each other. Stop trying.

Well, aside from the fact that Madison >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anywhere in Iowa.

JOThompson
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby JOThompson » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:40 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Iowa and Wisconsin are indistinguishable from each other. Stop trying.

That's a rather blunt, sweeping statement. Iowa has a decent number of alums in Colorado and Phoenix, so finding work there isn't impossible, although certainly not easy ITE. I'm sure that Wisconsin has the advantage in other cities as well. On balance, career prospects are pretty similar between the schools, but that doesn't mean that they always equally meet the needs of all their students.
Well, aside from the fact that Madison >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anywhere in Iowa.

Both are great college towns that surpassed my expectations. Have you even stepped foot in Iowa City?

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holydonkey
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby holydonkey » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:53 pm

I think you'll get in WashU or Illinois, go to one of those when you do.

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donzoli
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby donzoli » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:57 pm

Wisonsin's alumni per state:
1.WI-5478
2.Illinois-698
3.CA-398
4.Minnesota-345

D.C.-310
NY-220

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romothesavior
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:57 pm

holydonkey wrote:I think you'll get in WashU or Illinois, go to one of those when you do.


+1. I know you felt weird at WUSTL, but why did you take Illinois off your list of options? Illinois is hands down a better school than the three you are currently considering.

dgthree
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby dgthree » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:13 pm

According to NALP directory

Wisconsin placement:

New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT): 3.0%
Middle Atlantic (NJ, NY, PA): 4.0%
Midwest (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI): 64.0%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD): 6.0%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV): 9.0%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN): 0%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX): 3.0 %
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY): 2.0%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA): 6.0%
Non-US: 3%

North Carolina placement:

New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT): 1.0%
Middle Atlantic (NJ, NY, PA): 7.3%
Midwest (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI): 1.9%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD): 1.0%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV): 82.5%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN): 1.5%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX): 1.5 %
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY): 0.5%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA): 1.9%
Non-US: 0.5%

and again, Iowa placement:

New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT): 0.0%
Middle Atlantic (NJ, NY, PA): 7.1%
Midwest (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI): 18.6%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD): 43.7%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV): 12.6%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN): 0.5%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX): 1.6 %
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY): 7.1%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA): 8.2%
Non-US: 0.6%

From these NALP numbers it looks like Iowa has the most reach when comparing all three schools.

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Panther7
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby Panther7 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:29 am

donzoli wrote:Wisonsin's alumni per state:
1.WI-5478
2.Illinois-698
3.CA-398
4.Minnesota-345

D.C.-310
NY-220



You forget that most of that is also self-selection. Wisconsin grads don't have to take bar in Wisconsin, and most come from smaller cities since there are really only two larger cities in Wisconsin (Madison and Milwaukee). Wisconsin definitely has the pull for a job in Chicago. Madison is less than 3 hours from Chicago, a fact many people seem to forget.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:32 am

Sigh. Trying to distinguish these schools on "national reach" is ridiculous. Here's what you need to know: if you're top 10% at any of them, you might have a chance of breaking out of their regional markets. If you're not, you probably won't.

Trying to look at "oh, well, Iowa has 7.1% placement in NY vs 4.0% for Wisconsin" is asinine. More Wisconsin alums stay in Wisconsin than Iowa alums stay in Iowa, no question there. Query how much of that is self-selection/bar privilege/"Wisconsin's legal market, at least in the past because of Milwaukee's proximity to Chicago, is a touch larger than Iowa's" (5 NALP firm offices in Iowa, no V100s, 6 total SAs, and several of the firms are under 100k/year; vs. 17 offices/12 NALP firms, 1 V100, 42 SAs (with Quarles and Brady, one of Wisconsin's big firms, not running a program this year), mostly $100k+ firms, in Wisconsin)

Now, is the legal market in Wisconsin impressive? No, not really--but it certainly has more room than Iowa's does, which is why you see more Wisconsin grads stick around.

Some will say that the numbers I pointed out skew very heavily in Wisconsin's favor--a much stronger backup market = a + when you're dealing with the lower T1--but I think that argument would also be asinine. The schools are indistinguishable. That's the bloody end of it. Compare the number of Wisconsin students who have SAs in Chicago this year--and for the next several years, to the number of Iowa students with SAs there. I'll bet good money that the difference isn't statistically significant. Same goes for NYC, LA, DC, etc.

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Grizz
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Re: Best national reach: Iowa v Wisconsin v UNC

Postby Grizz » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:34 am

^^^^^^ is good advice.

I recommend picking a region and sticking with it. You're looking at barely any national reach at all. Like minuscule. Sorry man.




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