Where did you draw the line for sticker?

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DerrickRose
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby DerrickRose » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:34 pm

romothesavior wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
romothesavior wrote:From all accounts, BU and BC place very well in NYC and GW places well along the east coast. Not sure why those are city-limited like Fordham (which places something like 90%+ of their students in NYC).

Also, the gap between NYU and Columbia is pretty substantial. Columbia is far closer to Stanford than to NYU, and Columbia has better national portability than NYU.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection


Why would NYU students self-select towards NYC while Columbia students would select out?


That's not the question. The question is why would CCN-type students who want to practice in New York self-select to NYU rather than Columbia? The answer seems pretty obvious: Columbia is a higher-ranked Ivy-league "name" school and NYU isn't.

If you're in at CCN and you want to do New York Biglaw, there's a not a lot to choose between C and N. But since NYU is often offering more money, and they are in Greenwich Villiage rather than Harlem, I imagine NYU would attract more than their fair share.

If you're in at CCN and you want a SCOTUS clerkship, or to practice in Houston, or to be the first JD on your tiny home Caribbean island, or whatever, you're probably going to lean Columbia.

Thus, Columbia has more students leave the city, thus the illusion of NYU as less "national"

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stratocophic
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby stratocophic » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:44 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
romothesavior wrote:From all accounts, BU and BC place very well in NYC and GW places well along the east coast. Not sure why those are city-limited like Fordham (which places something like 90%+ of their students in NYC).

Also, the gap between NYU and Columbia is pretty substantial. Columbia is far closer to Stanford than to NYU, and Columbia has better national portability than NYU.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection


Why would NYU students self-select towards NYC while Columbia students would select out?


That's not the question. The question is why would CCN-type students who want to practice in New York self-select to NYU rather than Columbia? The answer seems pretty obvious: Columbia is a higher-ranked Ivy-league "name" school and NYU isn't.

If you're in at CCN and you want to do New York Biglaw, there's a not a lot to choose between C and N. But since NYU is often offering more money, and they are in Greenwich Villiage rather than Harlem, I imagine NYU would attract more than their fair share.

If you're in at CCN and you want a SCOTUS clerkship, or to practice in Houston, or to be the first JD on your tiny home Caribbean island, or whatever, you're probably going to lean Columbia.

Thus, Columbia has more students leave the city, thus the illusion of NYU as less "national"
Someone on another thread mentioned that the number of cross-admits between CLS and NYU is relatively low. Something like 20% of NYU admits get into CLS, and the number was much higher the other way around. I dunno if that's true, but if it is, it would explain the self-selection into N: they have a choice of N, maybe Ch, or else a lower T14 (Penn, Cornell, etc., but maybe with $$$) which will make networking more difficult because it isn't in-city. Choice between Ch vs. N, want to work in N, go to N. Choice between Co and N, want to work in N, it's maybe a wash, but probably still lean Co for the name. Choice between Co and N, want to work anywhere, go to Co (if the cross-admit thing is true).

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You Gotta Have Faith
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby You Gotta Have Faith » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:08 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
stratocophic wrote:Besides, haven't you heard? It's T12 now.


Its fine not to like NYU, but to exclude them from CCN is ridiculous. And although T12 makes more sense than T13 (which is the most horrendous Cornell trolling ever), it still seems silly. The movement of law schools is glacial at the fastest, and the T14 has stood the test of time.

The true tiers in review:


Benevolent Overlord:
Y
With an unquantifiable but still palpable gap before...
Totally National:
H
S

With very little material gap before...
Constructively National:
CC
N

MVPB
DN
CG

With very little material gap before...

Quasi-National Regional Hegemons:
Vandy/Texas/UCLA/USC

With only slight (in-region) material gap before...(Picture the next groups in parallel rather than on top of each other)

Note: Henceforth, regional-ness of schools increases exponentially for each level you go down

ESPN Country Martial Law Quarantine (AKA No Leaving City Limits) Regional:
BU/BC/Fordham/GW
Cardozo/George Mason/Maryland/UConn
Brooklyn/Seton Hall/St. Johns/Hofstra/RU-N/RU-C/Villanova/Temple/American
Northeastern/Syracuse/Buffalo/Catholic/Suffolk/UDC/Any other TTT's
NYLS


Big Ten Network Regional:

Illinois/ND/WUSTL
Iowa/Wisconsin/Ohio State/Minnesota/Indiana
Loyola/Kent/DePaul/Pitt/Penn State/Case Western
William Mitchell/John Marshall/Marquette/Indiana-Indy/SLU/Michigan State/Any other TTT's


West Coast Latitude Restricted Regional:
UCD/UCH/UCI/UW/Arizona/ASU
Loyola/Pepperdine/San Diego/Santa Clara/USF/Oregon/L&C/Seattle/UNLV
Southwestern/Golden Gate/Gonzaga/Pacific/Any other TTT's


Individually Localized South Regional:

Emory
W&M/W&L/UGA/UNC/Wake/Tulane/UF/Alabama
FSU/Miami/Kentucky
Richmond/South Carolina/LSU/Ole Miss/Tennessee/Arkansas
Assorted Southern TTT's
Florida TTT's


Ron Paul 2012! Regional

Houston/Baylor/SMU/Colorado/BYU
Jefferson Davis Corrollary: The next tier is any western school named University of __________
Texas Tech/Texas Southern/Any Other TTT's



Wow, that took awhile. But it was worth it.


Not on USC. Sorry... they just don't place that many people away from the West Coast. Probably somewhat the case with UT as well... though they seem to do surprisingly well getting people into academia. Obviously, I have my own opinions on where these should be drawn (somewhat differently from where you have them). But I'll spare us all a pointless debate, and we'll all keep our own views :) Go after schools the way you see them and you'll all be happy.

National reach and rankings don't always coincide the way one might think. Some of the most top-notch schools out there still have a primary region they excel in.

09042014
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:18 pm

SaintClarence27 wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
stratocophic wrote:HYSCC - certain
NBPM - maybe, probably not
VDN - maybe, almost certainly not
CG - I turned down 10k per year from Vandy, the hell would I want to go to a school with worse QOL and performance in NLJ 250 placement?


Oh, stop it with the "HYSCC" garbage. That's even worse than this "T13" that seems to be floating around.


What I don't understand, if it's about QOL and NLJ 250, is why he'd pay sticker at Chicago, but not at NU.


As the resident NU 0L troll, even I have to admit this years NLJ250 was a bit a fluke. Schools that placed large amount of students in NYC got killed by no offers. Chicago will place better than NU.

What is crazy is paying sticker at BPM and not VDN. These schools are roughly peers.
Last edited by 09042014 on Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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stratocophic
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby stratocophic » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:53 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
SaintClarence27 wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
stratocophic wrote:HYSCC - certain
NBPM - maybe, probably not
VDN - maybe, almost certainly not
CG - I turned down 10k per year from Vandy, the hell would I want to go to a school with worse QOL and performance in NLJ 250 placement?


Oh, stop it with the "HYSCC" garbage. That's even worse than this "T13" that seems to be floating around.


What I don't understand, if it's about QOL and NLJ 250, is why he'd pay sticker at Chicago, but not at NU.


As the resident NU 0L troll, even I have to admit this years NLJ250 was a bit a fluke. Schools that placed large amount of students in NYC got killed by no offers. Chicago will place better than NU.

What is crazy is paying sticker at BPM and not VDN. These schools are roughly peers.

Matter of perception, whether it's accurate or not. V and D may be a function of being in the south and familiarity breeding contempt and all of that, but they seem more regional (if only slightly so) than B and M. P I'm largely unfamiliar with, but I've seen it grouped with the others more often than not so I figured what the hell. N may or may not be in the last group because I'm pissed at the fact that I'm the only splitter on TLS who couldn't get in just because I'm a young'un... and again going to N wouldn't give me any advantage over the other lower T12s due to my lack of WE, so I didn't really have a reason to separate it.

09042014
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:31 pm

stratocophic wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
SaintClarence27 wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:[

Oh, stop it with the "HYSCC" garbage. That's even worse than this "T13" that seems to be floating around.


What I don't understand, if it's about QOL and NLJ 250, is why he'd pay sticker at Chicago, but not at NU.


As the resident NU 0L troll, even I have to admit this years NLJ250 was a bit a fluke. Schools that placed large amount of students in NYC got killed by no offers. Chicago will place better than NU.

What is crazy is paying sticker at BPM and not VDN. These schools are roughly peers.

Matter of perception, whether it's accurate or not. V and D may be a function of being in the south and familiarity breeding contempt and all of that, but they seem more regional (if only slightly so) than B and M. P I'm largely unfamiliar with, but I've seen it grouped with the others more often than not so I figured what the hell. N may or may not be in the last group because I'm pissed at the fact that I'm the only splitter on TLS who couldn't get in just because I'm a young'un... and again going to N wouldn't give me any advantage over the other lower T12s due to my lack of WE, so I didn't really have a reason to separate it.


I think the idea that NU only places well because of its students work experience is mostly a myth. I think it owes its placement much more to the fact that it has a small class and dominates a major legal market (chicago). Much in the same way NYU owes it's placement to NYC.

A lot of the admitted students, and NU students I've met don't have spectacular W/E. They count anything, including being a waiter as W/E.

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stratocophic
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby stratocophic » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:08 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
SaintClarence27 wrote:What I don't understand, if it's about QOL and NLJ 250, is why he'd pay sticker at Chicago, but not at NU.


As the resident NU 0L troll, even I have to admit this years NLJ250 was a bit a fluke. Schools that placed large amount of students in NYC got killed by no offers. Chicago will place better than NU.

What is crazy is paying sticker at BPM and not VDN. These schools are roughly peers.

Matter of perception, whether it's accurate or not. V and D may be a function of being in the south and familiarity breeding contempt and all of that, but they seem more regional (if only slightly so) than B and M. P I'm largely unfamiliar with, but I've seen it grouped with the others more often than not so I figured what the hell. N may or may not be in the last group because I'm pissed at the fact that I'm the only splitter on TLS who couldn't get in just because I'm a young'un... and again going to N wouldn't give me any advantage over the other lower T12s due to my lack of WE, so I didn't really have a reason to separate it.


I think the idea that NU only places well because of its students work experience is mostly a myth. I think it owes its placement much more to the fact that it has a small class and dominates a major legal market (chicago). Much in the same way NYU owes it's placement to NYC.

A lot of the admitted students, and NU students I've met don't have spectacular W/E. They count anything, including being a waiter as W/E.
Seems reasonable, although my lack of interest in Chitown still keeps it grouped with VD for me. Poor Duke, now officially relegated to the least useful T12. TBF it's more than they deserve for being anti-splitter snobs.

09042014
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:30 pm

stratocophic wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Matter of perception, whether it's accurate or not. V and D may be a function of being in the south and familiarity breeding contempt and all of that, but they seem more regional (if only slightly so) than B and M. P I'm largely unfamiliar with, but I've seen it grouped with the others more often than not so I figured what the hell. N may or may not be in the last group because I'm pissed at the fact that I'm the only splitter on TLS who couldn't get in just because I'm a young'un... and again going to N wouldn't give me any advantage over the other lower T12s due to my lack of WE, so I didn't really have a reason to separate it.


I think the idea that NU only places well because of its students work experience is mostly a myth. I think it owes its placement much more to the fact that it has a small class and dominates a major legal market (chicago). Much in the same way NYU owes it's placement to NYC.

A lot of the admitted students, and NU students I've met don't have spectacular W/E. They count anything, including being a waiter as W/E.
Seems reasonable, although my lack of interest in Chitown still keeps it grouped with VD for me. Poor Duke, now officially relegated to the least useful T12. TBF it's more than they deserve for being anti-splitter snobs.


Yea, if you really don't want Chicago, NU loses a lot of its luster.

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Grizz
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby Grizz » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:46 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Yea, if you really don't want Chicago, NU loses a lot of its luster.


Just out of curiosity, why is this? Not arguing, just wondering.

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beach_terror
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby beach_terror » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:49 pm

Paying sticker for Villanova, because it's the best school I got into in the market I know I want to work in (Philly). Still hoping to get off the Temple WL (instate), but if that doesn't happen Nova is my next best option for the illadelphia. I also have the option to commute to save on housing/food my 2L and 3L if I decide to move back home for it.

09042014
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:53 pm

rad law wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Yea, if you really don't want Chicago, NU loses a lot of its luster.


Just out of curiosity, why is this? Not arguing, just wondering.


It places really well there. It's still a national school, but inside Chicago its better than the rest of the 7-14 top schools.

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Grizz
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby Grizz » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:54 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
rad law wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Yea, if you really don't want Chicago, NU loses a lot of its luster.


Just out of curiosity, why is this? Not arguing, just wondering.


It places really well there. It's still a national school, but inside Chicago its better than the rest of the 7-14 top schools.


Oh I get it now. Makes sense.

09042014
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:56 pm

rad law wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
rad law wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Yea, if you really don't want Chicago, NU loses a lot of its luster.


Just out of curiosity, why is this? Not arguing, just wondering.


It places really well there. It's still a national school, but inside Chicago its better than the rest of the 7-14 top schools.


Oh I get it now. Makes sense.


Yea the 7-14 schools, while being national, usually have area's where they beat the rest. Uva and Gulc for DC, Boalt for Cali, Penn and Cornell for NYC, Uva and Duke for the South, NU and Michigan for the midwest.

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Grizz
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby Grizz » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:01 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
rad law wrote:
Oh I get it now. Makes sense.


Yea the 7-14 schools, while being national, usually have area's where they beat the rest. Uva and Gulc for DC, Boalt for Cali, Penn and Cornell for NYC, Uva and Duke for the South, NU and Michigan for the midwest.


Of course. RC fail on my part. It's been a long Sunday afternoon.

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wadeny
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby wadeny » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:09 pm

For some in-state residents, I can imagine sticker at a low price public school (like UGA, W&M, etc) might make sense. But generally, I agree with a lot of other posters drawing the line at the T10.

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jcl2
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby jcl2 » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:30 am

jacko wrote:
Rand M. wrote:
jacko wrote:
JOThompson wrote:I think it's worthwhile to shell out full price at certain regional powerhouses like SMU or UWashington as well.


I'm starting to think that full price at the University of Washington might be too much. I'm on the sticker at T14 only bandwagon.


The thing about regional powerhouses is that they are usually state schools. If a school is public then "sticker" would probably be significantly reduced in the first place for those who are in-state.


Yeah, but COA for UW is 120,00K for an instate resident. Combined with the saturated Seattle market and the law school's refusal to give many scholarships, it doesn't seem like a strong as a choice as people make it out to be.


I'm going to UW at sticker and would definitely take it over sticker at schools in the 11-14 range, and, for personal non-financial reasons, probably everything but HYS and B. 120K is a lot of money, I'm hoping not to have to take out loans for cost of living though, so it should be closer to 60-70k for me, but 120k in loans would be manageable even on a worst case scenario salary of 40-50k per year, if you stretch out your payment plan, your payments will be less than $500 per month. 200k+, which is what you will take out for sticker plus cost of living at any T14, would be tough to manage on anything but biglaw. Thing is, at the schools at the lower end of the T14 you only have a 50% shot, at best, at biglaw, and if you don't get it you will be in a much worse position than if you had half as much debt. Further, while NW biglaw prospects might be marginally better from a lower T14 (arguable), your prospects outside of biglaw will not likely be any better from someplace like Cornell or Georgetown than they would be if you went to UW.

If your goal is biglaw, getting biglaw is more important than living in the NW, and you are willing to accept the risk of ending up in significant debt without biglaw, then lower T14 is a better choice than UW, but if you want to end up in Seattle, or anywhere in the NW, there are lots of reasons why UW in-state could be the better choice.

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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby motiontodismiss » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:05 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Yea the 7-14 schools, while being national, usually have area's where they beat the rest. Uva and Gulc for DC, Boalt for Cali, Penn and Cornell for NYC, Uva and Duke for the South, NU and Michigan for the midwest.


Penn just became a whole lot less attractive (don't want NYC) and Mich/NU just became a whole lot more attractive (want Chicago).

pollaclc
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby pollaclc » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:11 pm

your parents footing the bill, ftw

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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby keg411 » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:15 pm

I have drawn the line that I will not pay sticker anywhere - period (mostly because I had no shot with my numbers at T14 or even T20). Choosing to attend my state school where I not only have legal connetions in the state, I have connections to the law school itself. Riding out a couple of WL's and schools I have yet to hear from due to late apps, but when push comes to shove, there is only about a 5% chance that I change my mind about the school I attend and none of the schools I have yet to hear from/WL'd at are worth sticker.

If my numbers were better, I'd probably take say the risk would be worth it for me at T13 + Vandy (no GTown because I don't like DC, Vandy added because I like the southeast).

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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby motiontodismiss » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:20 pm

pollaclc wrote:your parents footing the bill, ftw


+10000000000000000000

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missvik218
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby missvik218 » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:23 pm

wadeny wrote:For some in-state residents, I can imagine sticker at a low price public school (like UGA, W&M, etc) might make sense. But generally, I agree with a lot of other posters drawing the line at the T10.

I don't even consider paying in-state tuition at these as "sticker” maybe paying full OOS tuition would equal sticker. But in-state (for UGA because that's where I'm probably going) is like having a 110k scholly from higher ranked schools in the region.

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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby motiontodismiss » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:30 pm

For some, instate at their local state school isn't an option because their state U's are either bankrupt (CA) or they suck (a lot of other states).

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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby Grizz » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:45 pm

missvik218 wrote:
wadeny wrote:For some in-state residents, I can imagine sticker at a low price public school (like UGA, W&M, etc) might make sense. But generally, I agree with a lot of other posters drawing the line at the T10.

I don't even consider paying in-state tuition at these as "sticker” maybe paying full OOS tuition would equal sticker. But in-state (for UGA because that's where I'm probably going) is like having a 110k scholly from higher ranked schools in the region.


This. Without scholarships outside of T6 (I did get a couple), I would have been UGA for low in-state tuition and access to the ATL market.

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You Gotta Have Faith
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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby You Gotta Have Faith » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:18 pm

rad law wrote:
missvik218 wrote:
wadeny wrote:For some in-state residents, I can imagine sticker at a low price public school (like UGA, W&M, etc) might make sense. But generally, I agree with a lot of other posters drawing the line at the T10.

I don't even consider paying in-state tuition at these as "sticker” maybe paying full OOS tuition would equal sticker. But in-state (for UGA because that's where I'm probably going) is like having a 110k scholly from higher ranked schools in the region.


This. Without scholarships outside of T6 (I did get a couple), I would have been UGA for low in-state tuition and access to the ATL market.


I think you all make valid points. If you are from a state with a decent state school such as UGA, or Alabama, or Indiana, or Iowa, etc. then going there to pay in-state tuition should definitely play into your reasoning, if that is a reasonable option for you (based on your cycle).

However, for many people (Idaho, Wyoming, VT, Utah, Hawai'i, etc., etc.) going to their in-state school may not make sense, based on their goals, even with in-state tuition. Thus they are forced to (1) turn to private options that can be more expensive, or (2) pay out-of-state tuition at the good state schools (which frankly, can be just as expensive as the private schools).

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Re: Where did you draw the line for sticker?

Postby legalized » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:00 pm

underachiever wrote:Yale
Harvard
[deleted cause i have zero interest]
Columbia

The only [edit: 3] schools where your as close to guaranteed as possible to get a 6-figure starting salary, to recoup the 200k in loans for school and the lost profitability of the 3 years during LS, quickly enough to make it worthwhile.


What underachiever said, incl. edits. :)

Some of those other top tens i never heard of the college itself until I started researching law school. I'm not paying 6 figures for a school noone but lawyers knows or cares about. If I'm spending that kind of money I need to know it will make ANY hiring manager perk up and pay attention in ANY field after I graduate...even 20 years from now.




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