Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

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crazyeddie
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Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby crazyeddie » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:27 pm

Okay, so I am seriously considering going to UIUC next year and have spent a lot of time researching different schools. I have come to the conclusion that UIUC is on the rise and will slowly (but surely) continue to rise. I believe that within a few years UIUC could regain its T-20 status. Here is why:

-Past 2 years UIUC has increased from 28th to 23rd to 21st.
-UIUC has a new Dean, Bruce Smith, who seems to have a fire under his a$$ to increase the quality of the school
-UIUC has "wised up" and become a numbers whore (taking high LSAT splitters), and as such has increased its student numerical quality
-Access to Chicago market means UIUC biglaw placement 6th best public school
-UIUC has been aggressively handing out scholarships in recent years to attract high quality students, and will likely continue to do so

Finally (& this is the comment that I am hoping sparks a fierce debate) I believe that UIUC has the ability to displace George Washington & WUSTL to secure its T-20 position.

Do you agree or disagree? And more importantly WHY?

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im_blue
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby im_blue » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:34 pm

Does it really matter? Their primary market is Chicago, and they've been killed at OCI by ITE. That said, it does look like Illinois has been successfully gaming the rankings like WUSTL.

itsmytime10
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby itsmytime10 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:43 pm

im_blue wrote:Does it really matter? Their primary market is Chicago, and they've been killed at OCI by ITE. That said, it does look like Illinois has been successfully gaming the rankings like WUSTL.


and how exactly do u know that they got "killed" at OCI or did u just feel like typing something?

crazyeddie
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby crazyeddie » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:49 pm

im_blue wrote:Does it really matter? .


It matters to me, which is why I created the thread. If it doesn't matter to you then....why...did...you...respond?

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romothesavior
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:52 pm

I think what the above poster is saying is that you should not choose UIUC based on its ranking; you should chose it based on your career goals. UIUC is a great school for the midwest, especially Chicago. It does have decent portability for the top of the class, but it isn't wise to choose UIUC over GW if you want DC, or UIUC over Hastings or Davis if you want Cali, etc. It really doesn't matter if UIUC is ranked 28th or in the top 20... the job prospects from the school will be about the same regardless.

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flyingpanda
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby flyingpanda » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:54 pm

crazyeddie wrote:
im_blue wrote:Does it really matter? .


It matters to me, which is why I created the thread. If it doesn't matter to you then....why...did...you...respond?


For the 687th time, out of the t14, all schools are regional, so it doesn't matter if a school jumps spots unless its regional strength is affected, which in this case it is not.

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Luis Gomez
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby Luis Gomez » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:04 pm

They certainly run the school like a top law school. Their scholarships are guaranteed and generous, their admission process competitive but transparent and the employment stats for the class of 09 where quite impressive amidst a recession.

This I care about, the ranking is helpful but not as important.

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anthonyc350
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby anthonyc350 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:08 pm

killed by in this economy=doesn't make sense.

MidlawMyth
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby MidlawMyth » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:09 pm

Less than 300 offers this year in Chicago BIGLAW.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby DerrickRose » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:22 pm

I am a current 1L at Illinois, and I will do my best to outline a case for it.

1. Stop calling it UIUC. Illinois sounds better, its what the sports teams are called, and its not confusing.

2. Yes, Illinois has been aggressively giving out scholarships to students with good credentials. I don't know how this affects their bottom line, but I sure am happy about it! It seems that that money has continued to flow in this cycle, and the Law School receives either virtually or actually no funding from the state itself, so it is insulated a little bit from the budget problems of the state. Financially, the College is in good shape.

3. I don't know if its a matter of "wising up", but our admissions dean Paul Pless is an absolute baller. I don't know whether its simply a matter of having a guy there who is a recent graduate who knows the ropes of the modern admissions process or what, but he has been very successful in improving the quality of our students and I have great faith that he will continue to do so.

4. Relative to past years, the Class of 2011 got killed at OCI. Guess what, so did the Class of 2011 at every school. The firms that didn't show up last year are coming back this year. Guess what, they're coming back to every school. While ITE has killed the legal market as a whole, I don't think it has substantially affected the relative standing of the various schools.

Having said that, before during and after ITE, Illinois is among the best non-T14's for Chicago Biglaw. Period. Its also tremendous for the Chicago legal market more generally, and for the rest of Illinois and the Midwest.

5. Bruce Smith is amazing. I don't know what the nuts and bolts of being a law school dean entails, but if being frighteningly intelligent and well dressed is part of it, he's doing a hell of a job.

6. Illinois used to be a consistent T20. I have no idea what that means. But its worth noting.

7. Speaking with tons of bias, Illinois is just a much more fun place to be than its major competitors (WUSTL and ND primarily). Its not the most beautiful campus in the world (though it is very nice), its not in the biggest town (though Champaign isn't as bad as people say it is) but it just has a friendly, fun vibe about it from top to bottom.

crazyeddie
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby crazyeddie » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:54 pm

Good post DerrickRose.

To reply to those that say that rankings don't matter. Short term...true. Long term...WRONG. I will be the first to admit that there are LOTS of things more important than rankings to consider when selecting a school. But the fact remains that these rankings can serve as a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.

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flyingpanda
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby flyingpanda » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:56 pm

crazyeddie wrote:Good post DerrickRose.

To reply to those that say that rankings don't matter. Short term...true. Long term...WRONG. I will be the first to admit that there are LOTS of things more important than rankings to consider when selecting a school. But the fact remains that these rankings can serve as a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.


What are you talking about? Long term it matters even less.

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SaintClarence27
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby SaintClarence27 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:10 pm

aznflyingpanda wrote:
crazyeddie wrote:Good post DerrickRose.

To reply to those that say that rankings don't matter. Short term...true. Long term...WRONG. I will be the first to admit that there are LOTS of things more important than rankings to consider when selecting a school. But the fact remains that these rankings can serve as a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.


What are you talking about? Long term it matters even less.


Not in terms of trends, it doesn't.

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flyingpanda
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby flyingpanda » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:51 pm

SaintClarence27 wrote:
aznflyingpanda wrote:
crazyeddie wrote:Good post DerrickRose.

To reply to those that say that rankings don't matter. Short term...true. Long term...WRONG. I will be the first to admit that there are LOTS of things more important than rankings to consider when selecting a school. But the fact remains that these rankings can serve as a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.


What are you talking about? Long term it matters even less.


Not in terms of trends, it doesn't.


For someone's long term employment, it's not going to matter if the school suddenly jumps up in rank years from now.

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SaintClarence27
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby SaintClarence27 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:53 pm

aznflyingpanda wrote:
SaintClarence27 wrote:
aznflyingpanda wrote:
crazyeddie wrote:Good post DerrickRose.

To reply to those that say that rankings don't matter. Short term...true. Long term...WRONG. I will be the first to admit that there are LOTS of things more important than rankings to consider when selecting a school. But the fact remains that these rankings can serve as a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.


What are you talking about? Long term it matters even less.


Not in terms of trends, it doesn't.


For someone's long term employment, it's not going to matter if the school suddenly jumps up in rank years from now.


I suppose it depends what Rose meant. The long term trends *do* matter, but long term in terms of a personal career, I'd agree - the long term rankings mean jack.

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flyingpanda
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby flyingpanda » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:03 pm

SaintClarence27 wrote:
I suppose it depends what Rose meant. The long term trends *do* matter, but long term in terms of a personal career, I'd agree - the long term rankings mean jack.


I agree with what Rose said and I'm not bashing UIUC, it's a great school. I'm just saying this rise in rankings doesn't matter to crazyeddie as much as he thinks it does.

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UFMatt
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby UFMatt » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:25 pm

OP, I disagree, at least to some degree. It's settling back into more of its historical spot.

Here is the ranking of UIUC since 1994. As you can see, it was at an all-time high in the mid 90s, dropped down for about a decade, and has just jumped back up in the past 2 years. I would argue that the difference between the high and low points is negligible for the purposes of assessing quality. If UIUC jumps up or down a few spots, it's still a good school.

Image

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TCScrutinizer
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby TCScrutinizer » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:32 pm

I'm going there; it's going to be T20 next year for sure.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby XxSpyKEx » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:28 pm

DerrickRose wrote:4. Relative to past years, the Class of 2011 got killed at OCI. Guess what, so did the Class of 2011 at every school. [/


Yes, but better schools getting “killed” meant around 1/3-1/2 the class getting into large law firms. Getting killed at UIUC meant around 1/10 of the class getting into large law firms. But that’s pretty much the same as similar schools in that range.

DerrickRose wrote:The firms that didn't show up last year are coming back this year. Guess what, they're coming back to every school. While ITE has killed the legal market as a whole


Actually this is wrong. Analysts are only predicting modest increases this fall in 2L SA recruiting. Last year there was 256 2L SA spots total in Chicago, so a modest increase would be something like 300 spots, and half of those spots will not be UIUC students.

DerrickRose wrote:Having said that, before during and after ITE, Illinois is among the best non-T14's for Chicago Biglaw. Period. Its also tremendous for the Chicago legal market more generally, and for the rest of Illinois …


That’s true. However, law firms feed into UIUC’s class after they hire pretty deeply into t3 classes, then t6 classes, then t13 classes, then GULC, then finally schools like UIUC. The problem is when there’s only 256 spots (or 300) in the market, and that’s the only real market that all your grads concentrate themselves in, it means that a lot of people are going to have a difficult time finding employment.

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SaintClarence27
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby SaintClarence27 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:43 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:4. Relative to past years, the Class of 2011 got killed at OCI. Guess what, so did the Class of 2011 at every school. [/


Yes, but better schools getting “killed” meant around 1/3-1/2 the class getting into large law firms. Getting killed at UIUC meant around 1/10 of the class getting into large law firms. But that’s pretty much the same as similar schools in that range.

DerrickRose wrote:The firms that didn't show up last year are coming back this year. Guess what, they're coming back to every school. While ITE has killed the legal market as a whole


Actually this is wrong. Analysts are only predicting modest increases this fall in 2L SA recruiting. Last year there was 256 2L SA spots total in Chicago, so a modest increase would be something like 300 spots, and half of those spots will not be UIUC students.

DerrickRose wrote:Having said that, before during and after ITE, Illinois is among the best non-T14's for Chicago Biglaw. Period. Its also tremendous for the Chicago legal market more generally, and for the rest of Illinois …


That’s true. However, law firms feed into UIUC’s class after they hire pretty deeply into t3 classes, then t6 classes, then t13 classes, then GULC, then finally schools like UIUC. The problem is when there’s only 256 spots (or 300) in the market, and that’s the only real market that all your grads concentrate themselves in, it means that a lot of people are going to have a difficult time finding employment.


I was pretty impressed with the class of 2009 employment stats, all things considered. It didn't seem like they had too tough of a time.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby XxSpyKEx » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:51 pm

SaintClarence27 wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:4. Relative to past years, the Class of 2011 got killed at OCI. Guess what, so did the Class of 2011 at every school. [/


Yes, but better schools getting “killed” meant around 1/3-1/2 the class getting into large law firms. Getting killed at UIUC meant around 1/10 of the class getting into large law firms. But that’s pretty much the same as similar schools in that range.

DerrickRose wrote:The firms that didn't show up last year are coming back this year. Guess what, they're coming back to every school. While ITE has killed the legal market as a whole


Actually this is wrong. Analysts are only predicting modest increases this fall in 2L SA recruiting. Last year there was 256 2L SA spots total in Chicago, so a modest increase would be something like 300 spots, and half of those spots will not be UIUC students.

DerrickRose wrote:Having said that, before during and after ITE, Illinois is among the best non-T14's for Chicago Biglaw. Period. Its also tremendous for the Chicago legal market more generally, and for the rest of Illinois …


That’s true. However, law firms feed into UIUC’s class after they hire pretty deeply into t3 classes, then t6 classes, then t13 classes, then GULC, then finally schools like UIUC. The problem is when there’s only 256 spots (or 300) in the market, and that’s the only real market that all your grads concentrate themselves in, it means that a lot of people are going to have a difficult time finding employment.


I was pretty impressed with the class of 2009 employment stats, all things considered. It didn't seem like they had too tough of a time.


They didn’t. The problem is that it’s the class of 2009 and those stats are meaningless because they did OCI in 2007 and their SA in 2008. Here’s what happened since then in Chicago:

XxSpyKEx wrote:
….
NALP firms in Chicago (I think there are a good number of IP boutiques in here because I haven’t even heard of some of these firms).

Law firm name
2008 2009 2010 [2L SA class]

Baker & McKenzie LLP – Chicago
2 8 4

Banner & Witcoff, Ltd.
5 3 3

Barnes & Thornburg LLP
3 0 0

BRINKS HOFER GILSON & LIONE
7 12 1

BRYAN CAVE LLP – CHICAGO
6 3 2

Butler Rubin Saltarelli & Boyd LLP
1 1 1

Chapman and Cutler LLP
10 9 7

DLA Piper LLP (US)
18 7 5

Drinker Biddle & Reath LLP
12 5 4

DYKEMA (Dykema Gossett PLLC) - CHICAGO OFFICE
6 3 2

FITCH EVEN TABIN & FLANNERY
7 1 0

FOLEY & LARDNER LLP- CHICAGO
21 9 4

Goldberg Kohn Ltd.
8 1 1

Greenberg Traurig, LLP
6 7 3

Hinshaw & Culbertson LLP
18 7 8

Holland & Knight LLP – Chicago
6 4 2

JENNER & BLOCK LLP
40 46 16 :shock:

JONES DAY – CHICAGO
17 21 8

K&L Gates LLP - Chicago, IL
10 13 3

Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP
29 15 5

KIRKLAND & ELLIS LLP – Chicago
54 52 32

LATHAM & WATKINS LLP – CHICAGO
25 20 9

Locke Lord Bissell & Liddell LLP – Chicago
11 2 2

Lovells LLP
7 4 2

Marshall, Gerstein & Borun LLP
4 2 4

MAYER BROWN LLP
71 46 11 :shock:

McAndrews, Held & Malloy, Ltd.
7 4 4

McDermott Will & Emery LLP
14 14 8

McDonnell Boehnen Hulbert & Berghoff LLP
9 9 9

McGuireWoods LLP – Chicago
8 11 4

Michael Best & Friedrich LLP
2 2 1

Miller Shakman & Beem LLP
2 1 0

Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP
5 3 0

Neal, Gerber & Eisenberg LLP
19 10 0

NIXON PEABODY LLP - Chicago, IL
2 1 2

Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker LLP
14 5 5

Perkins Coie LLP
4 3 1

Pircher, Nichols & Meeks
3 3 3

Quarles & Brady LLP
3 3 0

Reed Smith – Chicago
6 6 2

Ropes & Gray LLP
0 6 5

Schiff Hardin LLP
12 21 8

SEYFARTH SHAW LLP – CHICAGO
9 6 0

Shefsky & Froelich Ltd
2 1 1

SIDLEY AUSTIN LLP – CHICAGO
75 43 20 :shock:

SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM LLP - CHICAGO
57 33 9 :shock:

Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP
43 14 6 :shock:

Thompson Coburn LLP
3 1 1

Ungaretti & Harris LLP
6 4 3

Vedder Price, P.C.
10 5 0

WILDMAN, HARROLD, ALLEN & DIXON LLP
14 17 3

Winston & Strawn LLP
67 54 22

2008 SA total= 809

2009 SA total= 581

2010 SA total= 256 :shock:

2010 SA/ 2009 SA = 256/581= 44% of the SAs that were available in 2009 were available in 2010

2010 SA/2008 SA = 256/809 = 31.6% of the SAs that were available in 2008 were available in 2010

The 256 number doesn’t seem to bad, but then again, it is right around the size of NU’s class alone, and then you figure there are 6 schools in the Chicagoland area aiming for those + UIUC, WUSTL, ND, IU, & UMich at least to some extent shooting for those spots. Pretty brutal all things considered.



The only thing I would note that wasn’t in my original post was that it is actually probably closer to 15+ schools at least to some extent aiming for Chicago because I didn’t even think about schools like Iowa, OSU, etc and then there is t14s on the coasts where some students are trying to move inward.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby DerrickRose » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:09 am

XxSpyKEx wrote:law firms feed into UIUC’s class after they hire pretty deeply into t3 classes, then t6 classes, then t13 classes, then GULC, then finally schools like UIUC.


Deplorable Cornell trolling.

But seriously, I am a firm believer in the idea that assuming a standard level of effort, your GPA goes up as you go down the rankings. And if I wanted Chicago Biglaw, I would much rather be top 1/4 at Illinois than median at GULC.

If the market keeps sucking, all these "Which school should I choose" threads have the same answer: NONE.

But there's no reason to think that way. Illinois delivers a great legal education, and during a time when there is a lot of question about the future of the 160K-type associate salary structure, the competitive scholarships offered by the admissions department offer a much less risky option.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby DerrickRose » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:12 am

XxSpyKEx wrote: I didn’t even think about schools like Iowa, OSU, etc


That's because in Chicago Illinois > All Big Ten Schools not named NW or Michigan.

itsmytime10
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby itsmytime10 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:20 am

DerrickRose wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote: I didn’t even think about schools like Iowa, OSU, etc


That's because in Chicago Illinois > All Big Ten Schools not named NW or Michigan.


Blah Blah Blah. In Chicago there are only two schools that places better than Illinois. NU and U of Chicago. Here is what i will tell you about biglaw hiring, there is a big influence by the alums. If Illinois has consistently placed over 50% of their grads in Chicago then trust me every single firm in Chicago is full of Illinois grads. That means there are a lot of partners from Illinois in these big firms and they will always influence hiring decisions. Pull up any firm in Chicago and see what schools dominate in terms of number of Lawyers and then come back and post.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Illinois (UIUC) on the rise

Postby DerrickRose » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:02 am

itsmytime10 wrote:Here is what i will tell you about biglaw hiring, there is a big influence by the alums. If Illinois has consistently placed over 50% of their grads in Chicago then trust me every single firm in Chicago is full of Illinois grads. That means there are a lot of partners from Illinois in these big firms and they will always influence hiring decisions. Pull up any firm in Chicago and see what schools dominate in terms of number of Lawyers and then come back and post.


Okay, here's a handful of big Chicago firms (selected among the top 10 or so because their websites made searching easy, I'm pretty sure these are all V100)

Sidley Austin Chicago Office:
Northwestern - 60
Illinois - 42
Chicago - 25
Iowa - 14
Notre Dame - 11
WUSTL - 5

Kirkland & Ellis Chicago Office:
Northwestern - 84
Chicago - 72
Illinois - 45
WUSTL - 14
Notre Dame - 11
Iowa - 7

Winston & Strawn Chicago Office:
Illinois - 51
Northwestern - 35
Chicago - 25
Notre Dame - 23
WUSTL - 16
Iowa - 8

Seyfarth Shaw Chicago Office:
Northwestern - 21
Illinois - 15
Chicago - 11
WUSTL - 5
Notre Dame - 3
Iowa - 2

McDermott Will & Emery Chicago Office
Northwestern - 39
Illinois - 26
Chicago - 19
Iowa - 8
Notre Dame - 7
WUSTL - 3

Total of the 5:
Northwestern - 239
Illinois - 179
Chicago - 152
Notre Dame - 55
WUSTL - 43
Iowa - 30


Now don't take these numbers to mean that Illinois is better than Chicago, they are merely reflective of the much more national reach that Chicago has, but as to your point about the number of alums at big firms, these are simply the facts.

And while WUSTL and ND also have broader national reaches than Illinois, the fact that people pick them over Illinois when they want Chicago biglaw seems odd.




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