Berkeley v Michigan

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Berkeley v Michigan for Academia, Gov, PI

Berkeley
50
56%
Michigan
39
44%
 
Total votes: 89

tamlyric
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby tamlyric » Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:58 pm

Tangerine Gleam wrote:OP's top priority goal is academia, yes? Michigan does better in that regard, I think.

Tough call, broseph. These are my final two as well.


Michigan. You know you wanna. :P

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby bilbobaggins » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:01 pm

Berkeley > Ann Arbor.

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby Dignan » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:02 pm

Tangerine Gleam wrote:OP's top priority goal is academia, yes? Michigan does better in that regard, I think.

Tough call, broseph. These are my final two as well.

Michigan is not better for academia. Berkeley has done slightly better in recent years, but they're basically peers for academic placement. Check out:

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml

And, if you're going to have any shot at academia (which is definitely a long shot), you're going to need to connect with faculty in the field that you're interested in. That's far more important than a percentage point or two difference in overall placement.

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Tangerine Gleam
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:06 pm

I stand corrected. Thanks for clarifying, Dig. I think I was confused by a graph showing total number of T14 grads currently in academia -- but upon secod thought, this would be an inacceate metric for several reasons

Also, I give my regards to Fake Dean Tom, who is really happy to
to be paying for a Berkeley Law degree and is always sweeping in with great advice.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:18 pm

Academia is a very broad description for a career choice. If "academia" means law school prof. at a top 18 law school, then top 5% of your law school class should be your goal, not top 10%.

Wooster33
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby Wooster33 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:19 pm

bilbobaggins wrote:Berkeley > Ann Arbor.


I think most people would disagree, even with the weather edge to Berkeley.

hooty86
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby hooty86 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:25 pm

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Last edited by hooty86 on Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tangerine Gleam
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:30 pm

hooty86 wrote:
Wooster33 wrote:
bilbobaggins wrote:Berkeley > Ann Arbor.


I think most people would disagree, even with the weather edge to Berkeley.


+5 billion, seriously


Wait, seriously?

I will most likely end up in AA this fall but would still like Berkeley more than Ann Arbor even if they both had the same shitty weather.

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bilbobaggins
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby bilbobaggins » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:34 pm

Tangerine Gleam wrote:
hooty86 wrote:
Wooster33 wrote:
bilbobaggins wrote:Berkeley > Ann Arbor.


I think most people would disagree, even with the weather edge to Berkeley.


+5 billion, seriously


Wait, seriously?

I will most likely end up in AA this fall but would still like Berkeley more than Ann Arbor even if they both had the same shitty weather.


Berkeley and AA are similar to each other structurally except:

+ Proximity to SF, the Pacific Ocean, etc.
+ Much better weather.
+ Better cultural scene (because of SF).
- More street people. (I could care less, but apparently this is a big issue for the average TLSer).
- More expensive

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worldtraveler
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby worldtraveler » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:49 pm

I made this same choice last year and picked Berkeley. I'm 100% happy with that choice, although I'm sure I would have liked Michigan as well.
If you want academia, Berkeley now has a program where they match you with a faculty mentor during your 2L year and you take a year long course on legal scholarship which gets you ready to publish an article. They've also done quite well placing graduates lately, although I don't have stats on Michigan to compare it.

I'm happy to answer any questions you might have about Berkeley if you want to PM me.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:00 pm

Tangerine Gleam wrote:
hooty86 wrote:
Wooster33 wrote:
bilbobaggins wrote:Berkeley > Ann Arbor.


I think most people would disagree, even with the weather edge to Berkeley.


+5 billion, seriously


Wait, seriously?

I will most likely end up in AA this fall but would still like Berkeley more than Ann Arbor even if they both had the same shitty weather.

I think it's very much a preference thing. As another person from the Bay who has also spent a significant amount of time in Berkeley, I think Ann Arbor is significantly nicer of a town than Berkeley. For some reason that I can't quite put my finger on, the town of Berkeley just felt... dirtier. The weather in Berkeley, of course, is far better than in AA. Although now that I've experienced these things called "seasons," I do somewhat enjoy them.

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby Dignan » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:29 am

worldtraveler wrote:I made this same choice last year and picked Berkeley. I'm 100% happy with that choice, although I'm sure I would have liked Michigan as well.
If you want academia, Berkeley now has a program where they match you with a faculty mentor during your 2L year and you take a year long course on legal scholarship which gets you ready to publish an article. They've also done quite well placing graduates lately, although I don't have stats on Michigan to compare it..

Earlier, I quoted the Leiter link, which covered 2003 to 2007. Here are stats from the most recent year:

--LinkRemoved--

Berkeley and Michigan both placed 11 grads apiece, which is solid. Michigan is 35% larger thank Berkeley, so Berkeley's placement rate is better. Although Berkeley has done a little better than Michigan in academia placement in recent years, the two schools are substantially similar. It's not like we're talking about the difference between Yale and Cornell here.

Wooster33
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby Wooster33 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:58 am

As another person from the Bay who has also spent a significant amount of time in Berkeley, I think Ann Arbor is significantly nicer of a town than Berkeley.


TITCR. The only reason to prefer Berkeley is 1) weather and 2) its proximity to SF. Berkeley itself is vastly inferior as a city.

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby Dignan » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:07 am

Wooster33 wrote:
As another person from the Bay who has also spent a significant amount of time in Berkeley, I think Ann Arbor is significantly nicer of a town than Berkeley.


TITCR. The only reason to prefer Berkeley is 1) weather and 2) its proximity to SF. Berkeley itself is vastly inferior as a city.

Obviously, this is a personal matter. I don't get why anyone between the ages of 20 and 50 would prefer Ann Arbor to Berkeley, but everyone is different. IMO, Berkeley has a better social scene, better restaurants, and great hiking trails in the hills above the city. To me, Ann Arbor is boring as hell. But, really, it's a personal thing. Which city is better? There's no objective right answer. Visit both and find out for yourself.

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Tangerine Gleam
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:09 am

Wooster33 wrote:
As another person from the Bay who has also spent a significant amount of time in Berkeley, I think Ann Arbor is significantly nicer of a town than Berkeley.


TITCR. The only reason to prefer Berkeley is 1) weather and 2) its proximity to SF. Berkeley itself is vastly inferior as a city.


Yes, while the city of Berkeley itself may not be tops, it will always be 20-30 minutes from The Best City.

Truthfully, when I say that I prefer Berkeley to Ann Arbor, I mean to say, "I would rather go to school in Berkeley than in Ann Arbor."

I see little reason to evaluate Berkeley in a vacuum...that's kinda irrelevant; it's the whole area that's great. Ann Arbor, on the other hand, is the main attraction. But to each his own!

Wooster33
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby Wooster33 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:30 am

Tangerine Gleam wrote:
Wooster33 wrote:
As another person from the Bay who has also spent a significant amount of time in Berkeley, I think Ann Arbor is significantly nicer of a town than Berkeley.


TITCR. The only reason to prefer Berkeley is 1) weather and 2) its proximity to SF. Berkeley itself is vastly inferior as a city.


Yes, while the city of Berkeley itself may not be tops, it will always be 20-30 minutes from The Best City.

Truthfully, when I say that I prefer Berkeley to Ann Arbor, I mean to say, "I would rather go to school in Berkeley than in Ann Arbor."

I see little reason to evaluate Berkeley in a vacuum...that's kinda irrelevant; it's the whole area that's great. Ann Arbor, on the other hand, is the main attraction. But to each his own!


Absolutely. But I will say this: Those who dislike Berkeley, really dislike it. And that feeling is hardly unusual. Berkeley residents (non-students) are just weird. But students, particularly grad students, are an interesting bunch. And there are a lot of international students, too. But the city just plain sucks--run-down, filled with street people, etc.

hooty86
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby hooty86 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:51 am

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Last edited by hooty86 on Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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worldtraveler
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:58 am

People from SoCal hate everything that isn't SoCal. I'd be more worried if they didn't hate Berkeley.

Wooster33
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby Wooster33 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:02 am

worldtraveler wrote:People from SoCal hate everything that isn't SoCal. I'd be more worried if they didn't hate Berkeley.


I think most people not from the area hate it pretty universally to begin with. Though a good portion of Berkeley students claim that the city "grows" on them. De-sensitized is more like it ;) The local wackiness is certainly a source of entertainment.

But I think the credited advice is: The locations couldn't be more different. Best to visit (if the OP hasn't already) and decide for herself.

hooty86
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby hooty86 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:04 am

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Last edited by hooty86 on Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby Dignan » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:15 am

hooty86 wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:People from SoCal hate everything that isn't SoCal. I'd be more worried if they didn't hate Berkeley.


They don't hate San Francisco. Berkeley is another story.

Most of my extended family is from SoCal. Although they hate Berkeley more than SF, they don't care for either. Most SoCal people I know also hate Seattle, NYC, and Baltimore. I'm sure they dig the "clean" cities like Ann Arbor and Orlando.

If LA is your idea of paradise, then Berkeley is probably not for you.

fortissimo
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby fortissimo » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:23 am

Dignan wrote:Most of my extended family is from SoCal. Although they hate Berkeley more than SF, they don't care for either. Most SoCal people I know also hate Seattle, NYC, and Baltimore. I'm sure they dig the "clean" cities like Ann Arbor and Orlando.

If LA is your idea of paradise, then Berkeley is probably not for you.


Isn't Seattle also a "clean" city? It's extremely clean.

But yeah, dirtiest cities in America are hands down New York City and San Francisco. Chicago and DC are cleaner than both, especially Chicago. (I'm amazed it's considered metro.)

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby Dignan » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:31 am

fortissimo wrote:
Dignan wrote:Most of my extended family is from SoCal. Although they hate Berkeley more than SF, they don't care for either. Most SoCal people I know also hate Seattle, NYC, and Baltimore. I'm sure they dig the "clean" cities like Ann Arbor and Orlando.

If LA is your idea of paradise, then Berkeley is probably not for you.


Isn't Seattle also a "clean" city? It's extremely clean.

I'm not sure about that. The Capitol Hill neighborhood, which is probably the closest thing that Seattle has to Berkeley with respect to restaurants/bars/student hang outs, doesn't seem particularly clean to me. The suburbs north of Seattle are very clean. But, come to think of it, the areas in North Berkeley (and the Berkeley Hills) are clean as well.

fortissimo
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby fortissimo » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:34 am

Dignan wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
Dignan wrote:Most of my extended family is from SoCal. Although they hate Berkeley more than SF, they don't care for either. Most SoCal people I know also hate Seattle, NYC, and Baltimore. I'm sure they dig the "clean" cities like Ann Arbor and Orlando.

If LA is your idea of paradise, then Berkeley is probably not for you.


Isn't Seattle also a "clean" city? It's extremely clean.

I'm not sure about that. The Capitol Hill neighborhood, which is probably the closest thing that Seattle has to Berkeley with respect to restaurants/bars/student hang outs, doesn't seem particularly clean to me. The suburbs north of Seattle are very clean. But, come to think of it, the areas in North Berkeley (and the Berkeley Hills) are clean as well.


Seattle doesn't have nearly as many homeless or drug users, so that contributes to the impression of being much cleaner (partly because the people are literally "clean," pun intended).

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Dignan
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Re: Berkeley v Michigan

Postby Dignan » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:37 am

fortissimo wrote:
Dignan wrote:
fortissimo wrote:Isn't Seattle also a "clean" city? It's extremely clean.

I'm not sure about that. The Capitol Hill neighborhood, which is probably the closest thing that Seattle has to Berkeley with respect to restaurants/bars/student hang outs, doesn't seem particularly clean to me. The suburbs north of Seattle are very clean. But, come to think of it, the areas in North Berkeley (and the Berkeley Hills) are clean as well.


Seattle doesn't have nearly as many homeless or drug users, so that contributes to the impression of being much cleaner (partly because the people are literally "clean," pun intended).

Actually, Seattle has a significant problem with both the homeless and drug users (two groups that overlap, not surprisingly). But one big difference between SF/Berkeley and Seattle is that the latter does a better job of keeping its homeless people away from tourist areas.




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