Avoid UMich

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danquayle
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby danquayle » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:57 pm

84Sunbird2000 wrote:
soundgardener wrote:This thread is like Waiting for Godot.


+1. Nice reference.


Very nice indeed.

The Washington Poast
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby The Washington Poast » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:57 pm

Tangerine Gleam wrote:If OP is legit, then don't be surprised if he doesn't come around for a day or two. If I had just dropped out of a T9 school


Egregious anti-UVA trolling

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Helmholtz
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:58 pm

clintonius wrote:It was a pretty solid anti-Georgetown troll, if nothing else.


+1

If this is true, I really feel bad about Oblomov's predicament, but I did chuckle at the "well, maybe not Georgetown, but any of the others"

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romothesavior
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:59 pm

The Washington Poast wrote:
Tangerine Gleam wrote:If OP is legit, then don't be surprised if he doesn't come around for a day or two. If I had just dropped out of a T9 school


Egregious anti-UVA trolling


Nice first post. Very TLS-y of you.

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danquayle
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby danquayle » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:00 pm

hooty86 wrote:
danquayle wrote:
JRMjr wrote:one person questions Michigans career services and then drops out of law school. from this we know:

-they probably struggled with the job hunt (and its clearly all UM's fault since the the schools job to get the student post-grad employment.)
-continuing your education (which OP prob sunk at least 3 semesters worth of $$ into) is useless.

Great points! another amusing but totally worthless TLS rant.


It is exceedingly difficult to get any job, especially the kind of job t-14 students expect, outside of OCI. Barring inborn connections, familial or otherwise, it can be nearly impossible. In this sense, Oblomov is accurately displaying his frustration.

Law school is a professional school. An expensive one. Schools are obliged to make a serious effort in the job hunt.


It's not that hard. My acquaintance in the bottom 20% at UMich landed a pretty prestigious FEDERAL government job with no connections.


I'm talking BigLaw. I don't know how you get even go about getting a BigLaw job outside of OCI. There are plenty of other good jobs out there, but so many people want BigLaw or bust.

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danquayle
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby danquayle » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:01 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
clintonius wrote:It was a pretty solid anti-Georgetown troll, if nothing else.


+1

If this is true, I really feel bad about Oblomov's predicament, but I did chuckle at the "well, maybe not Georgetown, but any of the others"


Yeah, that was sharp. It's even funnier if it is true.

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Matthies
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby Matthies » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:04 pm

danquayle wrote:
hooty86 wrote:
danquayle wrote:
JRMjr wrote:one person questions Michigans career services and then drops out of law school. from this we know:

-they probably struggled with the job hunt (and its clearly all UM's fault since the the schools job to get the student post-grad employment.)
-continuing your education (which OP prob sunk at least 3 semesters worth of $$ into) is useless.

Great points! another amusing but totally worthless TLS rant.


It is exceedingly difficult to get any job, especially the kind of job t-14 students expect, outside of OCI. Barring inborn connections, familial or otherwise, it can be nearly impossible. In this sense, Oblomov is accurately displaying his frustration.

Law school is a professional school. An expensive one. Schools are obliged to make a serious effort in the job hunt.


It's not that hard. My acquaintance in the bottom 20% at UMich landed a pretty prestigious FEDERAL government job with no connections.


I'm talking BigLaw. I don't know how you get even go about getting a BigLaw job outside of OCI. There are plenty of other good jobs out there, but so many people want BigLaw or bust.


And yet you say it can't be done. Your what we call on TLS an 'expert" then. :P

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danquayle
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby danquayle » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:08 pm

Matthies wrote:
danquayle wrote:
I'm talking BigLaw. I don't know how you get even go about getting a BigLaw job outside of OCI. There are plenty of other good jobs out there, but so many people want BigLaw or bust.


And yet you say it can't be done. Your what we call on TLS an 'expert" then. :P


How is it done?

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thalassocrat
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby thalassocrat » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:12 pm

blhoward2 wrote:I don't get why you'd drop out your 2L year? You've already paid TWO years of tuition. If you walk away, you have absolutely nothing to show for it. Why wouldn't u finish and at least have some kind of options.


Even worse, I did some e-stalking after he posted (I didn't even know Oblomov went to Mich, so I wanted to make sure he wasn't just completely lying) and looked through his old posts. I think he's a 2.5L summer starter, so he'd be graduating this December. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.

03121202698008
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby 03121202698008 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:25 pm

thalassocrat wrote:
blhoward2 wrote:I don't get why you'd drop out your 2L year? You've already paid TWO years of tuition. If you walk away, you have absolutely nothing to show for it. Why wouldn't u finish and at least have some kind of options.


Even worse, I did some e-stalking after he posted (I didn't even know Oblomov went to Mich, so I wanted to make sure he wasn't just completely lying) and looked through his old posts. I think he's a 2.5L summer starter, so he'd be graduating this December. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.


I wonder if he's the dude that sat at my table during the ASW and kept telling us how bad career services was instead of answering our questions.

Edit: This guy told us he didn't do a single thing himself...or send out a single non-OCS resume. He thought they should do it all for him.

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Matthies
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby Matthies » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:29 pm

danquayle wrote:
Matthies wrote:
danquayle wrote:
I'm talking BigLaw. I don't know how you get even go about getting a BigLaw job outside of OCI. There are plenty of other good jobs out there, but so many people want BigLaw or bust.


And yet you say it can't be done. Your what we call on TLS an 'expert" then. :P


How is it done?


Step 1 - get the *(&^ out of school and go meet working lawyers and judges. Step 2- make friends and stay in contact with them, Step 3 by the time you're a 3L you will be amazed at who the people you know, know at the firm you want to work at. The felid of law is much smaller than most people think, lots of people know lots of other people. Step 4- if you're not a total douche and your new powerful friends like you they pick up the phone and make the call and you get an interview over everyone else in the OCI pool. Its not that hard, it just takes getting the hell out of school and meeting the right people before you actual need to start asking favors.

I've done it. Will this work at Cravath, most likely not, but there are other big law firms in other markets where it works very well indeed. With summer classes getting smaller and firms needing 1st years to hit the ground running who would you rather hire some guy who re-wrote memos in your office and went on booze cruses for eight weeks that you never actually met or the guy your best friend from law school 30 years ago calls you on the phone and says you need to grab this kid before someone else does? The days of hiring an entire summer class, or 100 people summer classes are over. Who you know beats everything else.

The attrition rate in big law is around 80% by year 3, big part of that is that many new hires can't hack it/don't meet firm goals. A personal recommendation to a decision maker that you can beats hiring by committee any day of the week. Especially now. Big firms are more business than law, the new paradigm does not allow for keeping mildly productive people on staff until they come up to steam and actually start earning their pay. Clients no longer are willing to pay top dollar just for pedigree or to train your new associates. Its critical now more than ever that firms hire the best they can. Finding the best is easier done when someone you trust tells you they are the best than it is in a 30 min interview of 50 people in one day who all look pretty much the same on paper. 2007 is gone, people need to understand that and know its not ever coming back. Law students need to understand that so they can adjust to that changing market. Putting all your eggs in the OCI basket is bad idea in 2010. Do OCI yes, of course, but have a plan B, C and D and work just as hard on those.

junelsat
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby junelsat » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:32 pm

blhoward2 wrote:
junelsat wrote:
blhoward2 wrote:I don't get why you'd drop out your 2L year? You've already paid TWO years of tuition. If you walk away, you have absolutely nothing to show for it. Why wouldn't u finish and at least have some kind of options.


Is that a flat-coat retriever in your picture?


She's actually a mutt, part lab part spaniel. Or so I was told by the pet store where I paid $30 for her. My vet swears she is a pure-bred flat-coat retriever though.



Definitely a flat coat, I know that face anywhere. If I'm right, this dog has a rambunctious personality and likes people more than dogs. Also, probably somewhat neurotic. You got some deal!

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kn6542
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby kn6542 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:33 pm

danquayle wrote:
I'm talking BigLaw. I don't know how you get even go about getting a BigLaw job outside of OCI. There are plenty of other good jobs out there, but so many people want BigLaw or bust.

Uh, I don't even have an interest in biglaw and I can figure out how to find a biglaw job outside of OCI. Is this srsly a mystery to you?

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FlanAl
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby FlanAl » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:38 pm

Matthies,

Know that this is off thread topic you you really seem to know your stuff when it comes to networking. Should I try to start as a 0L? How do I make friends with people who are 40 years older than me? Should i hit whatever lawyers i know up for internships?
haha thanks i started a thread on this earlier today but it died a quick death

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Matthies
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby Matthies » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:42 pm

FlanAl wrote:Matthies,

Know that this is off thread topic you you really seem to know your stuff when it comes to networking. Should I try to start as a 0L? How do I make friends with people who are 40 years older than me? Should i hit whatever lawyers i know up for internships?
haha thanks i started a thread on this earlier today but it died a quick death


Don't start till you start school. And watever you do don't ask anyone for a job/internship/celrk till you have know them for a awhile, I mean several months of meeting them regualrly. See my post on the Denver thread where I outline what i did. I'm not an expert, I was just in law school for five years so I had plenty of time to figure out what did and didnt not work :)

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby Stringer Bell » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:43 pm

Matthies wrote:
danquayle wrote:
Matthies wrote:
danquayle wrote:
I'm talking BigLaw. I don't know how you get even go about getting a BigLaw job outside of OCI. There are plenty of other good jobs out there, but so many people want BigLaw or bust.


And yet you say it can't be done. Your what we call on TLS an 'expert" then. :P


How is it done?


Step 1 - get the *(&^ out of school and go meet working lawyers and judges. Step 2- make friends and stay in contact with them, Step 3 by the time you're a 3L you will be amazed at who the people you know, know at the firm you want to work at. The felid of law is much smaller than most people think, lots of people know lots of other people. Step 4- if you're not a total douche and your new powerful friends like you they pick up the phone and make the call and you get an interview over everyone else in the OCI pool. Its not that hard, it just takes getting the hell out of school and meeting the right people before you actual need to start asking favors.

I've done it. Will this work at Cravath, most likely not, but there are other big law firms in other markets where it works very well indeed. With summer classes getting smaller and firms needing 1st years to hit the ground running who would you rather hire some guy who re-wrote memos in your office and went on booze cruses for eight weeks that you never actually met or the guy your best friend from law school 30 years ago calls you on the phone and says you need to grab this kid before someone else does? The days of hiring an entire summer class, or 100 people summer classes are over. Who you know beats everything else.

The attrition rate in big law is around 80% by year 3, big part of that is that many new hires can't hack it/don't meet firm goals. A personal recommendation to a decision maker that you can beats hiring by committee any day of the week. Especially now. Big firms are more business than law, the new paradigm does not allow for keeping mildly productive people on staff until they come up to steam and actually start earning their pay. Clients no longer are willing to pay top dollar just for pedigree or to train your new associates. Its critical now more than ever that firms hire the best they can. Finding the best is easier done when someone you trust tells you they are the best than it is in a 30 min interview of 50 people in one day who all look pretty much the same on paper. 2007 is gone, people need to understand that and know its not ever coming back. Law students need to understand that so they can adjust to that changing market. Putting all your eggs in the OCI basket is bad idea in 2010. Do OCI yes, of course, but have a plan B, C and D and work just as hard on those.



This is good advice in general and I'm not disagreeing with your premise, but I imagine putting part 1 to work can be somewhat easier said than done if you go to a school without a geographically close home market (UVA, UMich, Cornell)

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FlanAl
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby FlanAl » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:47 pm

I'll check out the denver thread but what about family friends or friends parents?

thanks again for your help!

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Matthies
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby Matthies » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:05 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:

This is good advice in general and I'm not disagreeing with your premise, but I imagine putting part 1 to work can be somewhat easier said than done if you go to a school without a geographically close home market (UVA, UMich, Cornell)


Agree 100% told a freind not to go to iowa over CU for this exact reason. Friend now back in Denver with no job. Me personally, i only know how to do it one way, so I had to go to school in the town i wanted to work in. i did not even consider schools of higher rank outside where i wanted to work. bujt again, I only know how to do it the way i did it.

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Matthies
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby Matthies » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:09 pm

FlanAl wrote:I'll check out the denver thread but what about family friends or friends parents?

thanks again for your help!


To be honset i don't really have any experince with that, did not have aby family/freinds that where lawyers here until i started school. but if you can get something through family, do it. At the one really big huge firm I clerked at there were lots of people with the same last name :)

bigben
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby bigben » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:02 pm

Matthies wrote:
FlanAl wrote:Matthies,

Know that this is off thread topic you you really seem to know your stuff when it comes to networking. Should I try to start as a 0L? How do I make friends with people who are 40 years older than me? Should i hit whatever lawyers i know up for internships?
haha thanks i started a thread on this earlier today but it died a quick death


Don't start till you start school. And watever you do don't ask anyone for a job/internship/celrk till you have know them for a awhile, I mean several months of meeting them regualrly. See my post on the Denver thread where I outline what i did. I'm not an expert, I was just in law school for five years so I had plenty of time to figure out what did and didnt not work :)


You can definitely start networking now. The way to do it is to find friends of family or friends of friends who are lawyers. Try to meet them in a round-about way. Talk to them about your decision to go to law school and about the profession in general. Don't ask them for a job, just let them know who you are and make a good impression.

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FlanAl
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby FlanAl » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:39 pm

thanks matthies and bigben sorry to get things off track

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Bronte
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby Bronte » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:51 pm

FlanAl wrote:thanks matthies and bigben sorry to get things off track


Haha, what track?

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calgal17
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby calgal17 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:54 pm

Well this has at least turned into an interesting discussion of how to get a job!

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los blancos
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby los blancos » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:57 am

bigben wrote:
Matthies wrote:
FlanAl wrote:Matthies,

Know that this is off thread topic you you really seem to know your stuff when it comes to networking. Should I try to start as a 0L? How do I make friends with people who are 40 years older than me? Should i hit whatever lawyers i know up for internships?
haha thanks i started a thread on this earlier today but it died a quick death


Don't start till you start school. And watever you do don't ask anyone for a job/internship/celrk till you have know them for a awhile, I mean several months of meeting them regualrly. See my post on the Denver thread where I outline what i did. I'm not an expert, I was just in law school for five years so I had plenty of time to figure out what did and didnt not work :)


You can definitely start networking now. The way to do it is to find friends of family or friends of friends who are lawyers. Try to meet them in a round-about way. Talk to them about your decision to go to law school and about the profession in general. Don't ask them for a job, just let them know who you are and make a good impression.


What if I srsly know no one in the BigLaw community?

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Matthies
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Re: Avoid UMich

Postby Matthies » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:48 am

los blancos wrote:What if I srsly know no one in the BigLaw community?


Option 1: Go and try and meet someone in Biglaw community
Option 2: Meet someone who is a real lawyer who might know someone in the big law community
Option 3 (most popular choice): Do nothing then blame school/OCS/illegal aliens/the ABA for you not being able to find job




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