UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

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clintonius
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby clintonius » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:11 am

splinter23x wrote:
D Brooks wrote:Where is the cutoff? Chicago? NYU? Michigan?

Good question. I'd take UVA for free over all three of them. I really think it's Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Columbia that are so good, so well-respected all over the world, that no one should ever pass them up. After those 4, scholarships can come into play. Just a personal opinion.

Is this one of those fuckers from the "who would turn down harvard evar!?" thread trying to pay (inadequate) penance?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:22 am

I think OP probably has the choice of the ages. Congratulations, seriously. This means you basically win at life.

Tofu
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby Tofu » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:29 am

clintonius wrote:
splinter23x wrote:
D Brooks wrote:Where is the cutoff? Chicago? NYU? Michigan?

Good question. I'd take UVA for free over all three of them. I really think it's Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Columbia that are so good, so well-respected all over the world, that no one should ever pass them up. After those 4, scholarships can come into play. Just a personal opinion.

Is this one of those fuckers from the "who would turn down harvard evar!?" thread trying to pay (inadequate) penance?


hahaha

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vanwinkle
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:30 am

OperaSoprano wrote:I think OP probably has the choice of the ages. Congratulations, seriously. This means you basically win at life.

There is this. It's like having to choose between filet mignon and lobster. Even if you can't have both, you're still likely to be satisfied with what you choose either way.

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Dignan
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby Dignan » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:20 am

vanwinkle wrote:Do keep in mind that the COL between UVA and CLS for three years will be huge as well, and increase the difference in total costs of attendance. Adding in COL, your total CLS debt will be closer to 200K, and UVA will probably be somewhere around 60K.

Where are people getting their numbers from? Some people (not vanwinkle, necessarily) seem to be assuming that UVA is offering the OP a full ride, but he didn't say that. He just said what his debt would be at the end of law school, and it sounds to me like that debt will be offset by either personal savings or family money.

I'm guessing that the OP is getting $60k-$90K from UVA. That's nice, but it's not a full ride.

OP: Tough choice. If you were dead set on Media/IP/communications in NYC, then CLS is worth it, imo. If the Media/IP/communications thing is something of a whim and you don't really care whether you work in NYC or DC, then UVA (with $60k - $90K) is probably the wiser choice. Good luck.

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AngryAvocado
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby AngryAvocado » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:40 am

Dignan wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:Do keep in mind that the COL between UVA and CLS for three years will be huge as well, and increase the difference in total costs of attendance. Adding in COL, your total CLS debt will be closer to 200K, and UVA will probably be somewhere around 60K.

Where are people getting their numbers from? Some people (not vanwinkle, necessarily) seem to be assuming that UVA is offering the OP a full ride, but he didn't say that. He just said what his debt would be at the end of law school, and it sounds to me like that debt will be offset by either personal savings or family money.

I'm guessing that the OP is getting $60k-$90K from UVA. That's nice, but it's not a full ride.

OP: Tough choice. If you were dead set on Media/IP/communications in NYC, then CLS is worth it, imo. If the Media/IP/communications thing is something of a whim and you don't really care whether you work in NYC or DC, then UVA (with $60k - $90K) is probably the wiser choice. Good luck.


OP did say "UVA gratis," implying that it would be free of charge. Judging from the fact that he estimated his debt at CLS to be ">120k" (as opposed to ">200k"), I'm guessing you're right though. If it is UVA w/ 60-90k, OP has a decision on his/her hands. If it's a full ride, it's a no brainer: UVA. Full ride at MVP > Sticker (or thereabouts) at CCN, and I'm surprised to see people even considering otherwise. TLS can be such a schizophrenic place sometimes... :lol:

imchuckbass58
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby imchuckbass58 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:42 am

So, I don't know what a dean's scholarship is, but to edit my earlier post:

If it's a completely full ride, UVA.

If it's closer to half-tuition, CLS.

Norm DePlume
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby Norm DePlume » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:28 pm

OP here. Two points:

1) My salutation ("How are you Gentlemen") reflected no deep-seated Southern-fried sexism. It was, rather, intended as a whimsical homage to Zero Wing/All Your Base Are Belong to Us. And now that I've explained it, ISN'T IT FUNNY. Anyway, sorry about that to those who quite justifiably saw it as something more slighting.

2) My scholarship to UVA is a "full tuition scholarship." I'm in-state, which helps, and the exact amount--subject to change, of course, in the coming years--is $38.8K.

3) Three points, actually. To repeat: this is enormously helpful. In the interests of full disclosure, I'm still slightly inclined to go to CLS, although the persuasive cases that have been made to the contrary are giving me pause.

4) Four. Four points. One thing I didn't mention is that I'm intending to defer. UVA has offered to defer both admission and the Scholarship, but I'd have to re-apply for CLS financial aid. Something I'm hoping is that changed financial circumstances (my dad's retiring; mother may be laid off) might persuade them to be a bit more generous in their grant offer. I assume this is the wrong board for that sort of question, though.

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Kiersten1985
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby Kiersten1985 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:33 pm

splinter23x wrote:Columbia. It opens more doors, has a better name among lawyers, and is a much much bigger name among the lay crowd and internationally. I could be wrong but I think most Columbia students could go to UVA with aid if they wanted to, but they don't. Columbia is simply outstanding, congratulations.

Also New York > Charlottesville.


+1000

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ReelectClayDavis
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby ReelectClayDavis » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:47 pm

splinter23x wrote:I could be wrong but I think most Columbia students could go to UVA with aid if they wanted to, but they don't.


Unlikely that most Columbia admits could, since UVA maintains a median GPA that is higher than Columbia's 75th percentile GPA. Someone with ~3.7/173 will get into Columbia, but would hurt UVA's GPA median. UVA seems to just YP these people rather than pay $$ to boost only one median, which makes sense because they can then offer big bucks to the > median GPA > median LSAT candidates.

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OneKnight
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby OneKnight » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:58 pm

ReelectClayDavis wrote:
splinter23x wrote:I could be wrong but I think most Columbia students could go to UVA with aid if they wanted to, but they don't.


Unlikely that most Columbia admits could, since UVA maintains a median GPA that is higher than Columbia's 75th percentile GPA. Someone with ~3.7/173 will get into Columbia, but would hurt UVA's GPA median. UVA seems to just YP these people rather than pay $$ to boost only one median, which makes sense because they can then offer big bucks to the > median GPA > median LSAT candidates.


+1 Not to mention OP has this opportunity in part because he is an in-state candidate.

Also, to the OP: What you should really do in this situation is take off every Zig.

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ReelectClayDavis
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby ReelectClayDavis » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:00 pm

OneKnight wrote:
ReelectClayDavis wrote:
splinter23x wrote:I could be wrong but I think most Columbia students could go to UVA with aid if they wanted to, but they don't.


Unlikely that most Columbia admits could, since UVA maintains a median GPA that is higher than Columbia's 75th percentile GPA. Someone with ~3.7/173 will get into Columbia, but would hurt UVA's GPA median. UVA seems to just YP these people rather than pay $$ to boost only one median, which makes sense because they can then offer big bucks to the > median GPA > median LSAT candidates.


+1 Not to mention OP has this opportunity in part because he is an in-state candidate.

Also, to the OP: What you should really do in this situation is take off every Zig.


for great justice. OP, congrats on two great choices, make your time to visit both and see where you are happier.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby Stringer Bell » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:08 pm

I would take the UVA money in a second, but my goals are different. If Columbia gives you a much better chance at doing what you want (I admittedly know nothing about media law) then it would be a reasonable choice. However if thinking "ZOMG, COLUMBIA!!!" is the main reason you want to go there then that decision would hold less merit.

hubtubrub wrote:go to columbia.

this site is full fo uva trolls.

(well I should be a uva troll)... i'm going there anyway... but I would rather go to columbia.


While UVA has a strong presence on this site, I think that fact plays little relevance to the advice given ITT. If you replaced UVA with Michigan, NU, Duke, Penn, or Boalt, the dialogue would probably be the same.

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agentzer0
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby agentzer0 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:21 pm

you know how journalists/media outlets will, in the interest of full disclosure, tell you when they have some other connection to the story they are reporting and may have a conflict of interest?

Well, I'm looking at you vanwinkle.

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vanwinkle
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:38 pm

agentzer0 wrote:you know how journalists/media outlets will, in the interest of full disclosure, tell you when they have some other connection to the story they are reporting and may have a conflict of interest?

Well, I'm looking at you vanwinkle.

I don't hide the fact that I'm a current UVA student. Anyone who clicks the little "profile" button under my posts can see that it says "UVA Class of 2012". It's not a secret on this forum that I attend UVA. Obviously you know it, despite being new here.

Also, you don't actually accuse me of any bias in my reasoning. It's kind of telling that a current CLS student said nearly the same thing I did on the first page. I'm not speaking with a UVA bias, I just advised OP to choose UVA because it's the best advice I can give. I also said pretty clearly that while I think UVA is the wiser choice, OP couldn't really go wrong choosing either option. That's not the kind of thing someone with bias or trying to unfairly influence someone says.

If you think my advice is wrong, say that. If you think my being a UVA student is unfairly biasing my opinion, then accuse me of that. But don't be a passive aggressive asshole about it. That's entirely unnecessary.

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Dignan
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby Dignan » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:48 pm

Norm DePlume wrote:2) My scholarship to UVA is a "full tuition scholarship."

Ok. If CLS tuition/fees continue to escalate at their current rate of 5% a year, the total cost of tuition will be $157K over three years. If you figure that COL will be $5K/yr higher in Manhattan than Charlotsville (and I think that's being very charitable towards Manhattan), you're looking at a total COA difference of over $170K. That is a lot of money.

In general, I am a supporter of taking out debt to follow a dream. But if you're going to forgo $170K, you better have a coherent dream that CLS will clearly help you achieve.

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wackjickham
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby wackjickham » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:49 pm

I took UVA with ~2/3 over NYU, so a similar situation in some respects but also vastly different. I too have spent time in Charlottesville and found it charming, but was really drawn to New York for a different experience. In the end, I decided that the COL in NYC combined with the extra debt from school would be pretty suffocating for me. I knew I would be kicking myself for every night out at a bar and would have to live extremely cheaply. I would rather live in New York later in my life when I could actually enjoy it, rather than 3 years where 3/4 of my time would be spent in a library anyway.

If you want to go V10, go to Columbia. If you just want to do BigLaw, go to UVA. It seems as if you are extremely debt averse, and at least in my case I decided I would be much happier at UVA than NYU, despite NYU's attractive location.

Obviously Columbia =/= NYU and 2/3 =/= Full ride. Just my $0.02

CanadianWolf
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:53 pm

I have only read the first four posts but suggest that Columbia is the better option even though it intially appears to be the more expensive option. My understanding, and I may be wrong, is that upon graduation from Columbia Law School each graduate is given a check for one million dollars that may be cashed ten years from the date of issue.
P.S. One poster on this thread is a Virginia troll. Surprise! Surprise!

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Dignan
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby Dignan » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:00 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:I have only read the first four posts but suggest that Columbia is the better option even though it intially appears to be the more expensive option. My understanding, and I may be wrong, is that upon graduation from Columbia Law School each graduate is given a check for one million dollars that may be cashed ten years from the date of issue.

Yeah, the one-million dollar check is a big plus for CLS. It helps draw stronger applicants away from Harvard and Yale. There are, however, many strings attached. In addition to the ten-year wait period that you noted, you will only receive the check if you've worked for 10 years in qualifying employment, which is defined as working as a street vendor in Morningside Heights.

CanadianWolf
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:02 pm

It's a cashier's check from Washington Mutual placed directly into a Lehman Brother's account.
P.S. We gentlemen are fine.
Double P.S. Don't be foolish, based on your second post, this one isn't even close.

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AngryAvocado
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby AngryAvocado » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:20 pm

Lawl @ million dollar check. Seriously, though, I'm surprised to see people acting like CLS = made for life. This isn't HYS we're talking about here. Performance still very much matters at CLS, and I know of more than a few people below median there that can attest to that. What if OP has a crappy first semester? Now, he's facing an uphill battle just to finish around median and he can forget about V10 entirely. Oh, and he's looking at probably close to 200k in debt. I just can't see how it's wise to advise someone to do that when his other option is dropping one tier to MVP for a full ride.

Now, if OP would feel like he's giving up a dream by going to UVA or would always kick himself for not taking the chance, than maybe it's worth it for him. Objectively, though, I don't think it's the wiser decision of the two.

queenofhearts
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby queenofhearts » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:30 pm

Norm DePlume wrote:OP here. Two points:

1) My salutation ("How are you Gentlemen") reflected no deep-seated Southern-fried sexism. It was, rather, intended as a whimsical homage to Zero Wing/All Your Base Are Belong to Us. And now that I've explained it, ISN'T IT FUNNY. Anyway, sorry about that to those who quite justifiably saw it as something more slighting.

2) My scholarship to UVA is a "full tuition scholarship." I'm in-state, which helps, and the exact amount--subject to change, of course, in the coming years--is $38.8K.

3) Three points, actually. To repeat: this is enormously helpful. In the interests of full disclosure, I'm still slightly inclined to go to CLS, although the persuasive cases that have been made to the contrary are giving me pause.

4) Four. Four points. One thing I didn't mention is that I'm intending to defer. UVA has offered to defer both admission and the Scholarship, but I'd have to re-apply for CLS financial aid. Something I'm hoping is that changed financial circumstances (my dad's retiring; mother may be laid off) might persuade them to be a bit more generous in their grant offer. I assume this is the wrong board for that sort of question, though.



Both your humor and apology are appreciated. The scholarship at UVA is an amazing opportunity, but I don't think you should go if you're just feeling guilty for not taking advantage of it. Is there a reason why you're still leaning more toward CLS? That might be the thing to listen to, although vanwinkle has made some really great points as well. Go with the one you're more likely to enjoy and do well at.

Also, agentzer0, it's not really a "conflict of interest" for vanwinkle to want OP to attend UVA. It's not like it's going to benefit him in any way where OP attends. I think it's fairly obvious that it's useful for TLS to have advice from people actually attending the school...

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extragnarls
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby extragnarls » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:44 pm

wackjickham wrote:I took UVA with ~2/3 over NYU, so a similar situation in some respects but also vastly different. I too have spent time in Charlottesville and found it charming, but was really drawn to New York for a different experience. In the end, I decided that the COL in NYC combined with the extra debt from school would be pretty suffocating for me. I knew I would be kicking myself for every night out at a bar and would have to live extremely cheaply. I would rather live in New York later in my life when I could actually enjoy it, rather than 3 years where 3/4 of my time would be spent in a library anyway.

If you want to go V10, go to Columbia. If you just want to do BigLaw, go to UVA. It seems as if you are extremely debt averse, and at least in my case I decided I would be much happier at UVA than NYU, despite NYU's attractive location.

Obviously Columbia =/= NYU and 2/3 =/= Full ride. Just my $0.02


Wow. It's like I wrote this myself, except replace NYU with CLS. OP, I sincerely think you'd crazy to turn down the full tuition offer from UVA. This is especially true if your parents can't provide a financial safety net. I'm trying to avoid citing placement data, because that inevitably devolves into a discussion about its reliability, but what I gathered when I researched T6 vs. T10 schools is that the gap isn't that large, T6 is by no means a golden ticket, and below-median at Columbia is very much a sweaty-palms place to find yourself ITE.

One way to look at this (and a valid way, in my opinion) is that because you're an in-state VA resident, you're getting an unusually good offer, given your LSAT/GPA, and in support of that I would wager that if you browse LSN you'll find that very few people turn down T10 full rides unless it's for HYS, much less for a modest scholarship at a T6.

CanadianWolf
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:48 pm

The financial decision is one that only you and your family are qualified to make. Without regard to finances, Columbia University School of Law will introduce you to another world culturally speaking. If, however, you are satisfied with the Univ. of Virginia, its culture, wish to remain in a sophisticated Southern fraternity oriented culture, then it would be foolish to pass up the full tuition scholarship. You may or may not respond well to NYC & the culture of the urban Northeastern US.
Assuming that you are male, NYC is the top city in the world for a single, straight male. Interestingly enough, this was a news release today as NYC replaced Chicago as the top American city. The point is that NYC offers a great social life for a highly educated, professional. Not fratastic, but it might be worth considering.

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CG614
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Re: UVA w/Scholarship vs. Columbia

Postby CG614 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:59 pm

Dude, get out of Charlottesville and experience something different. You were at UVA for undergrad, that would make the decision for me. Enjoy Foxfield this weekend.




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