How does IBR affect your decision?

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Burberry by Burberry
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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby Burberry by Burberry » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:58 pm

jks289 wrote:IBR includes spousal income so unless you plan to marry someone who makes no money or not get married, IBR can end up being completely worthless.

IIRC, IBR will only consider the income of the spouse if taxes are filed jointly.

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Always Credited
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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby Always Credited » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:58 pm

No problem at all... I should stress that it "IS" indeed an option if, for whatever reason, you're unable to commit more than the IBR monthly payment to the payment of your loans. Its just not the most cost-efficient method should you have the income available to get rid of the debt at a higher rate than IBR demands.

To the above poster, the current language of IBR is such that its left ambiguous whether or not $200,000 of debt can count as a " partial financial hardship" even if you're making $100,000+ out of the gate. The facts would suggest that it does, while the rational would suggest that it isn't exactly meant to help the debt of BigLaw salaries. So we'll see how it plays out.

Edit: Above poster meaning Webbylu from the previous page.

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby webbylu87 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:04 pm

Always Credited wrote:No problem at all... I should stress that it "IS" indeed an option if, for whatever reason, you're unable to commit more than the IBR monthly payment to the payment of your loans. Its just not the most cost-efficient method should you have the income available to get rid of the debt at a higher rate than IBR demands.

To the above poster, the current language of IBR is such that its left ambiguous whether or not $200,000 of debt can count as a " partial financial hardship" even if you're making $100,000+ out of the gate. The facts would suggest that it does, while the rational would suggest that it isn't exactly meant to help the debt of BigLaw salaries. So we'll see how it plays out.

Edit: Above poster meaning Webbylu from the previous page.


Well this can be calculated by finding out what your monthy payment on $200k worth of debt would be (based on a 10 year repayment plan) and finding the income threshold that would be closest but below that calculated payment using IBR, can it not?

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nowinGA
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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby nowinGA » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:04 pm

Thanks for the link. Very helpful. I have been using one http://www.ibrinfo.org/what.vp.html , but I like that this is straight from the government.

From what I understand, even if you make a lot, as long as your loan balance is high enough, you are eligible. So...even if you start out making $100K...if you have $300K in loans, you would be eligible. (major hypothetical here to make a point...)

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Always Credited
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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby Always Credited » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:09 pm

webbylu87 wrote:
Always Credited wrote:No problem at all... I should stress that it "IS" indeed an option if, for whatever reason, you're unable to commit more than the IBR monthly payment to the payment of your loans. Its just not the most cost-efficient method should you have the income available to get rid of the debt at a higher rate than IBR demands.

To the above poster, the current language of IBR is such that its left ambiguous whether or not $200,000 of debt can count as a " partial financial hardship" even if you're making $100,000+ out of the gate. The facts would suggest that it does, while the rational would suggest that it isn't exactly meant to help the debt of BigLaw salaries. So we'll see how it plays out.

Edit: Above poster meaning Webbylu from the previous page.


Well this can be calculated by finding out what your monthy payment on $200k worth of debt would be (based on a 10 year repayment plan) and finding the income threshold that would be closest but below that calculated payment using IBR, can it not?


No no, I mean that its currently up in the air as to whether or not someone making a BigLaw salary can even apply for IBR. So the calculations for IBR based on a $130,000/year salary would be pointless if it is deemed that "partial financial hardship" is based more on current salary than on current debt load, or on the ratio of one to the other.

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webbylu87
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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby webbylu87 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:10 pm

nowinGA wrote:Thanks for the link. Very helpful. I have been using one http://www.ibrinfo.org/what.vp.html , but I like that this is straight from the government.

From what I understand, even if you make a lot, as long as your loan balance is high enough, you are eligible. So...even if you start out making $100K...if you have $300K in loans, you would be eligible. (major hypothetical here to make a point...)


No problem. I was using IBR Info as well but I prefer the government's FAQ. They also have one for the public service loan forgiveness which can be found here: https://studentaid.ed.gov/students/attachments/siteresources/PSLF_QAs_final_02%2012%2010.pdf

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webbylu87
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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby webbylu87 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:11 pm

Always Credited wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:
Always Credited wrote:No problem at all... I should stress that it "IS" indeed an option if, for whatever reason, you're unable to commit more than the IBR monthly payment to the payment of your loans. Its just not the most cost-efficient method should you have the income available to get rid of the debt at a higher rate than IBR demands.

To the above poster, the current language of IBR is such that its left ambiguous whether or not $200,000 of debt can count as a " partial financial hardship" even if you're making $100,000+ out of the gate. The facts would suggest that it does, while the rational would suggest that it isn't exactly meant to help the debt of BigLaw salaries. So we'll see how it plays out.

Edit: Above poster meaning Webbylu from the previous page.


Well this can be calculated by finding out what your monthy payment on $200k worth of debt would be (based on a 10 year repayment plan) and finding the income threshold that would be closest but below that calculated payment using IBR, can it not?


No no, I mean that its currently up in the air as to whether or not someone making a BigLaw salary can even apply for IBR. So the calculations for IBR based on a $130,000/year salary would be pointless if it is deemed that "partial financial hardship" is based more on current salary than on current debt load, or on the ratio of one to the other.


Oh, I see. Yeah, I'm awful at financial stuff so I'm still trying to understand all this. That makes sense though.

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nowinGA
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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby nowinGA » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:14 pm

Always Credited wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:
Always Credited wrote:No problem at all... I should stress that it "IS" indeed an option if, for whatever reason, you're unable to commit more than the IBR monthly payment to the payment of your loans. Its just not the most cost-efficient method should you have the income available to get rid of the debt at a higher rate than IBR demands.

To the above poster, the current language of IBR is such that its left ambiguous whether or not $200,000 of debt can count as a " partial financial hardship" even if you're making $100,000+ out of the gate. The facts would suggest that it does, while the rational would suggest that it isn't exactly meant to help the debt of BigLaw salaries. So we'll see how it plays out.

Edit: Above poster meaning Webbylu from the previous page.


Well this can be calculated by finding out what your monthy payment on $200k worth of debt would be (based on a 10 year repayment plan) and finding the income threshold that would be closest but below that calculated payment using IBR, can it not?


No no, I mean that its currently up in the air as to whether or not someone making a BigLaw salary can even apply for IBR. So the calculations for IBR based on a $130,000/year salary would be pointless if it is deemed that "partial financial hardship" is based more on current salary than on current debt load, or on the ratio of one to the other.


What do you mean by "currently up in the air?" Where/what is the discussion?

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Always Credited
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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby Always Credited » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:20 pm

I explained it in a previous post, but I'll reiterate here: the language states that to be eligible for IBR, you need to show at least "partial financial hardship" - meaning, you need to give a reason why the government should help pick up your tab. It isn't entirely clear, however, what classifies as "partial financial hardship": is simply having 200k in loans enough to classify your situation as at least partially financially difficult? If so, paying sticker but getting a BigLaw job of $130,000/year could still count you in for IBR (whether this is prudent or not is discussed in a previous post I made).

However, a large debt load alone may not be ample evidence of "partial financial hardship", since you make so much money. In that case, the guy with $200,000 in debt but a starting salary of $35,000 may qualify by showing that he's unable to pay off his loans. So, he'd qualify for IBR.

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nowinGA
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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby nowinGA » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:22 pm

Always Credited wrote:I explained it in a previous post, but I'll reiterate here: the language states that to be eligible for IBR, you need to show at least "partial financial hardship" - meaning, you need to give a reason why the government should help pick up your tab. It isn't entirely clear, however, what classifies as "partial financial hardship": is simply having 200k in loans enough to classify your situation as at least partially financially difficult? If so, paying sticker but getting a BigLaw job of $130,000/year could still count you in for IBR (whether this is prudent or not is discussed in a previous post I made).

However, a large debt load alone may not be ample evidence of "partial financial hardship", since you make so much money. In that case, the guy with $200,000 in debt but a starting salary of $35,000 may qualify by showing that he's unable to pay off his loans. So, he'd qualify for IBR.


Gotcha. Missed that.

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby Anonymous Loser » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:18 pm

Always Credited wrote: *** It isn't entirely clear, however, what classifies as "partial financial hardship": is simply having 200k in loans enough to classify your situation as at least partially financially difficult? ***


What in the world are you talking about? What qualifies as "partial financial hardship" is perfectly clear; there is no debate whatsoever about its meaning anywhere outside of this thread.

20 U.S.C.A. § 1098e(a)(3) (West Supp. 2009) wrote:(3) Partial financial hardship

The term “partial financial hardship”, when used with respect to a borrower, means that for such borrower--

(A) the annual amount due on the total amount of loans made, insured, or guaranteed under part B or C (other than an excepted PLUS loan or excepted consolidation loan) to a borrower as calculated under the standard repayment plan under section 1078(b)(9)(A)(i) or 1087e(d)(1)(A) of this title, based on a 10-year repayment period; exceeds

(B) 15 percent of the result obtained by calculating, on at least an annual basis, the amount by which--

(i) the borrower's, and the borrower's spouse's (if applicable), adjusted gross income; exceeds

(ii) 150 percent of the poverty line applicable to the borrower's family size as determined under section 9902(2) of Title 42.


If participation in the IBR program would lower your monthly federal educational loan payments, you qualify. It's just that simple.

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby Wooster33 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:19 pm

I think you are missing the point of IBR, the idea is to help lawyers who have chosen lower paying fields. A majority of the time that is public interest, which is why it makes sense for the "tax payers" to pay into the system. Society gets an ultimate benefit


And I think you are missing my point. If a person knows they want to enter public service they can choose their law school accordingly. I don't see why the taxpayer should have to pick up the tab so somebody can attend a T14 rather than their local TTT on scholarship.

Society benefitting? I wasn't aware there was a paucity of lawyers seeking employment in government service. Do you really think elite, prestigious positions at, say, the DOJ ought to qualify for this sort of debt discharge?

Indeed, with the possible exception of very low-paying legal aid work, government/PI jobs are usually pretty hard to come by. Thus, there is little demonstrated societal need for an incentive program such as IBR. In fact, the program has the perverse affect of pushing out those who have a genuine interest in public service in place of those who want an easy way to discharge their student loan debt.

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby jks289 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:28 pm

Wooster33 wrote:
I think you are missing the point of IBR, the idea is to help lawyers who have chosen lower paying fields. A majority of the time that is public interest, which is why it makes sense for the "tax payers" to pay into the system. Society gets an ultimate benefit


And I think you are missing my point. If a person knows they want to enter public service they can choose their law school accordingly. I don't see why the taxpayer should have to pick up the tab so somebody can attend a T14 rather than their local TTT on scholarship.

Society benefitting? I wasn't aware there was a paucity of lawyers seeking employment in government service. Do you really think elite, prestigious positions at, say, the DOJ ought to qualify for this sort of debt discharge?

Indeed, with the possible exception of very low-paying legal aid work, government/PI jobs are usually pretty hard to come by. Thus, there is little demonstrated societal need for an incentive program such as IBR. In fact, the program has the perverse affect of pushing out those who have a genuine interest in public service in place of those who want an easy way to discharge their student loan debt.


Well for starters the IBR program is not limited to lawyers. It exists to help teachers, doctors, emergency management officials, anyone who works for non-profits, even librarians. It is available to anyone who takes out federals loans to seek higher education in the US. So the "societal need" for IBR isn't that rich lawyers don't have to pay back loans, but so individuals can seek our vital graduate education without fear of non-dischargeable student debt they will never be able to pay back.

To answer your specific question about DOJ positions qualifying for loan forgiveness, of course they should count. Prosecutors are public servants who make significantly less than their private sector counter-parts. The only way the DOJ and similar agencies will attract the best and brightest is to make accepting a lower salary a reasonable financial choice.

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby Wooster33 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:40 pm

Well for starters the IBR program is not limited to lawyers. It exists to help teachers, doctors, emergency management officials, anyone who works for non-profits, even librarians
.

How is this an argument for the current program? It is ridiculous that IBR (25 year) covers anything and IBR (10 year) covers pretty much anything government-related or non-profit. It is over-inclusive. While society would benefit from incentivizing certain professions, there is absolutely no need to encourage people to be librarians! But let's stick to lawyers, as this forum is "Top Law Schools." The last thing the government should be doing is encouraging more people to go to law school. Society doesn't need more of them, and society doesn't need to be picking up the tab for their overpriced educations, either.

To answer your specific question about DOJ positions qualifying for loan forgiveness, of course they should count. Prosecutors are public servants who make significantly less than their private sector counter-parts. The only way the DOJ and similar agencies will attract the best and brightest is to make accepting a lower salary a reasonable financial choice.


Better hours, better benefits, more prestige. There is absolutely NO "societal need" to further incent people to enter elite, career-boosting positions at the DOJ, and it's laughable you would assert otherwise. They are flooded with well-qualified applicants without IBR. It is apaprent that these positions are sought after by highly qualified applicants in the absence of IBR, and further incentivization is a complete waste of taxpayer resources.

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:50 pm

Wooster33 wrote:Society benefitting? I wasn't aware there was a paucity of lawyers seeking employment in government service. Do you really think elite, prestigious positions at, say, the DOJ ought to qualify for this sort of debt discharge?

Yes, there is a clear societal benefit. The DOJ doesn't just need lawyers, they need good lawyers. They need lawyers who are qualified and competent enough to hang with the well-paid lawyers they'll often be facing off against. To accomplish this they can either 1) pay the same as corporate law does (which would involve incredibly higher payment to employees over their entire 30-plus-year career) or 2) forgive the debts they have to accrue to get there (which ends up being a lot cheaper than salary-matching since it's only paying off a certain amount once which is far lower than the difference in salary over 30 years).

The DOJ is representing the interests of society, and thus there's a clear societal benefit in them getting the best lawyers they can, and IBR is a cheaper way to do so than wage-matching.

Wooster33 wrote:Indeed, with the possible exception of very low-paying legal aid work, government/PI jobs are usually pretty hard to come by. Thus, there is little demonstrated societal need for an incentive program such as IBR. In fact, the program has the perverse affect of pushing out those who have a genuine interest in public service in place of those who want an easy way to discharge their student loan debt.

It's not that easy. You still have to commit to working for an organization that offers much lower pay for at least 10 years to receive the benefit. From an economic standpoint, you get a lot more money by going to BigLaw and paying off your loans with the extra money you make. An associate at a firm paying market can make more money in their first 3 years than many PI firms will pay some lawyers in their first 10! Even if they pay off their loans themselves, they'll still end up making more money in their first 5 years of employment than most PI employees make in their first 10. You don't seem to grasp the enormous pay gap that exists between BigLaw and PI work, and the fact that IBR does not fully close that gap.

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby jks289 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:56 pm

Wooster33 wrote:
Well for starters the IBR program is not limited to lawyers. It exists to help teachers, doctors, emergency management officials, anyone who works for non-profits, even librarians
.

How is this an argument for the current program? It is ridiculous that IBR (25 year) covers anything and IBR (10 year) covers pretty much anything government-related or non-profit. It is over-inclusive. While society would benefit from incentivizing certain professions, there is absolutely no need to encourage people to be librarians! But let's stick to lawyers, as this forum is "Top Law Schools." The last thing the government should be doing is encouraging more people to go to law school. Society doesn't need more of them, and society doesn't need to be picking up the tab for their overpriced educations, either.

To answer your specific question about DOJ positions qualifying for loan forgiveness, of course they should count. Prosecutors are public servants who make significantly less than their private sector counter-parts. The only way the DOJ and similar agencies will attract the best and brightest is to make accepting a lower salary a reasonable financial choice.


Better hours, better benefits, more prestige. There is absolutely NO "societal need" to further incent people to enter elite, career-boosting positions at the DOJ, and it's laughable you would assert otherwise. They are flooded with well-qualified applicants without IBR. It is apaprent that these positions are sought after by highly qualified applicants in the absence of IBR, and further incentivization is a complete waste of taxpayer resources.


I'm not sure how to respond to this. You don't think society needs librarians?

You can't say let's just discuss IBR as it pertains to lawyers. That doesn't make any sense. IBR isn't a program for lawyers. It is a program for federals loans available to a wide variety of professionals. IBR is not "Loan Forgiveness," though the two are related programs. Under IBR most professionals pay back with interest the entirety of their loans. The fact that the government protects people from predatory private lenders is hardly a controversial thing. It is almost universally popular, except among said lenders and their lobbyists. It is a no-lose situation. If you contribute back to society in one of the defined categories (that you don't think a DOJ prosecutor qualifies because they have better hours than someone making double their salaries just defies logic) you only pay back half your principal. (Side note: 10 years is the "easy way out?") If you choose another route you pay it all back, at 6.8% fixed (a higher rate than most banks lend at currently). I sense some smoldering conservative rage in this, but I just can’t discern the logic of your argument.

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby Wooster33 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:06 pm

I'm not sure how to respond to this. You don't think society needs librarians?


No, I don't think society needs to incent individuals to become librarians. There are plenty of qualified individuals to fill society's need for librarians.

IBR is not "Loan Forgiveness," though the two are related programs. Under IBR most professionals pay back with interest the entirety of their loans.


The 25 year scheme for non-public interest people is less objectionable, and many individuals will pay all or most of their loans under this scheme.

The fact that the government protects people from predatory private lenders is hardly a controversial thing. It is almost universally popular, except among said lenders and their lobbyists. It is a no-lose situation. If you contribute back to society in one of the defined categories (that you don't think a DOJ prosecutor qualifies because they have better hours than someone making double their salaries just defies logic) you only pay back half your principal. (Side note: 10 years is the "easy way out?") If you choose another route you pay it all back, at 6.8% fixed (a higher rate than most banks lend at currently). I sense some smoldering conservative rage in this, but I just can’t discern the logic of your argument.


First, I think you are confusing the recent federal takeover of the student loan industry with the IBR program and its debt discharge. Secondly, my research on the IBR program never uncovered a requirement of having to pay back half your principal. In fact, you don't have to pay a single cent on your principal, you just need to make your IBR payments which might not even cover accruing interest. I am repeating myself but here it goes one mroe time: I don't think positions which are flooded with eminently qualfied candidates in the absence of IBR ought to qualify. I sense some irrational liberal entitlement in your comments, but I just don't see how you can think that programs which are flush with highly qualified individuals need additional debt forgiveness to incent individuals to pursue these positions. Doing so is a transparent waste of taxpayer dollars, a simple transfer payemnt to whom you deem more "deserving."

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby Wooster33 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:09 pm

Yes, there is a clear societal benefit. The DOJ doesn't just need lawyers, they need good lawyers.


Are you honestly saying that there are not enough good lawyers applying for positions with the DOJ? It would be hard to take you seriously if you were.

You don't seem to grasp the enormous pay gap that exists between BigLaw and PI work, and the fact that IBR does not fully close that gap.


No crap. Doesn't mean a thing, people do not make their employment choices solely based on salary. Job stability, personal preference, the ability of the position to further your career, hour requirements, etc. The reason big law pay is so high is that in some of these other important areas it comes up short--lots of hours, uncertain future, lack of rewarding work.

The paramount question here should be: Is there a paucity of qualified lawyers in X field of public interest. If the answer is yes, then a case can be made to provide incentives to raise the number of qualified lawyers in that area. However, a lot of public interest work is very difficult to get, which means there are a lot of eminently qualified individuals seeking that employment. Further incentivizing these individuals is a complete waste of taxpayer money. DOJ, ACLU, and other top tier public interest non-profits are not suffering from a paucity of first-rate legal talent. Quite the opposite.
Last edited by Wooster33 on Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby legalease9 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:15 pm

thickfreakness wrote:
Great Satchmo wrote:
thickfreakness wrote:Zero. I'm married and likely going the private practice route so I'll be paying all of my loans back.


IBR applies to people in private practice, right?


Maybe, but I'll probably be in a firm making six figures so I think that precludes IBR as an option.


Not necessarily. say you make 100k. 100k-11201 of poverty threshold ) * 15% )/12 = 1109/month. You could theoretically limit your payments to that amount, while debt from sticker university can be 200k+ considering COL.

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:19 pm

Wooster33 wrote:
Yes, there is a clear societal benefit. The DOJ doesn't just need lawyers, they need good lawyers.

Are you honestly saying that there are not enough good lawyers applying for positions with the DOJ? It would be hard to take you seriously if you were.

It depends on how you define "good". The DOJ represents the federal government, it has to take on the best lawyers at the best law firms on a regular basis, so it makes sense for them to need the best lawyers themselves. Programs like this certainly help the DOJ attract more of the very best and brightest, and to keep them for a longer term since this program incentivizes them staying there for 10 years. Many bright people have joined the DOJ, get that on their resume, and then jump to law firms where they can make a lot more money. A program like this helps them retain those talented people.

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jks289
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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby jks289 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:20 pm

Wooster33 wrote:
Yes, there is a clear societal benefit. The DOJ doesn't just need lawyers, they need good lawyers.


Are you honestly saying that there are not enough good lawyers applying for positions with the DOJ? It would be hard to take you seriously if you were.


To clarify my principal comment, I was assuming that since the government ultimately forgave the loan they would consider all payments retroactively as having gone to the principal, in the sense of the actual amount recouped. The way a bank would for a discharged loan. Ten years IBR would be slightly less than half the original amount. Edited to add: No I'm not confusing the federal loan takeovers with IBR. IBR, GradPlus, and Stafford loans are designed to make education affordable and protect people from predatory private lenders.

I don't really want to keep getting into this but you are basing your entire argument on such a massive logic fail. The DOJ jobs are desirable to top young attorneys largely due to debt forgiveness, hence many qualified people apply. To then say many qualified people apply therefore there is no need for debt forgiveness is circular. Obviously, you and I --and honestly you and the rest of most people on all political stripes-- are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think IBR is absolutely vital to higher education, and I don't see any method (or reason) for excluding lawyers, doctors, rocket scientist or anyone else who might make a decent living. You've chosen a bizarre stance, but bless you for being so persistent in it.
Last edited by jks289 on Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:27 pm

jks289 wrote:The DOJ jobs are desirable to top young attorneys largely due to debt forgiveness, hence many qualified people apply.

This is the trap he was trying to lure folks into. The DOJ jobs were desirable before IBR came along (though not quite as much so). The catch is that they were desirable as a stepping-stone for a lot of the best and brightest, who would come aboard for a few years and then leap off into the world of high-paying private work. IBR still is necessary to help retain these people, which is a point he's ignoring.

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby Wooster33 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:32 pm

IBR still is necessary to help retain these people, which is a point he's ignoring.


A better argument, to be sure. If this is a huge concern there are other, less costly and more direct ways to work around the problem.

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:38 pm

Wooster33 wrote:
IBR still is necessary to help retain these people, which is a point he's ignoring.

A better argument, to be sure. If this is a huge concern there are other, less costly and more direct ways to work around the problem.

I'd love to hear what those are.

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Re: How does IBR affect your decision?

Postby Wooster33 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:44 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Wooster33 wrote:
IBR still is necessary to help retain these people, which is a point he's ignoring.

A better argument, to be sure. If this is a huge concern there are other, less costly and more direct ways to work around the problem.

I'd love to hear what those are.


It isn't terribly difficult to vet a candidate for committment to public service. If one really believes salary is inadequate to attract and retain qualified legal talent, then a direct salary increase is always preferrable. This does not skew the analysis in favor of only candidates with large amounts of debt or against those people who have already paid theirs off. You could also structure salary/pension/benefits etc. to scale more with legal experience.




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