Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

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UC Davis or Minnesota - Going out of my mind - PLEASE HELP!!!

UC Davis
52
60%
Minnesota
35
40%
 
Total votes: 87

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Always Credited
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby Always Credited » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:30 am

Wherever you attend, you will work. Jobs come and go, but where you're living could very well be quite permanent. If one location gives you a probable starting salary of $60k and another gives you $50k, but you prefer the latter, is $10k really that big of a difference in the scheme of things?

Neither school will have you working doc review unless you put out a record low GPA at Davis, or the economy reduces itself to such a state that doc review is actually a good job at that point.

JOThompson
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby JOThompson » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:33 am

The two schools offer remarkably similar job prospects, although it seems like the midwest is more insulated from the economic woes that have affected California. If you have even a slight preference for working in the west coast, go to Davis. It's true that UMN has been consistently ranked in the 20s, but that doesn't really translate to better jobs IMO. Don't sacrifice your ideal location/comfort for an extra couple percent of NLJ250 placement.

For what it's worth, I was making a similar decision between Davis and UMN/Iowa. I want to work on the west coast. If price was equal, I would've chosen Davis, even though it's ranked a bit lower.

Case2L
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby Case2L » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:36 am

Seems like most are saying Davis. I'm going to throw a wrench and say MInn. You are right, the school Dominates MSP with a capital D. It's also a beautiful, trendy city with a great music scene, awesome summers, and a cold but manageable winter. Also, I've worked in the Pacific Northwest with a lot of UMN grads - the degree has portability throughout the entire Northwest region. I can't speak for it's placement in California, but you'll have a good shot at Seattle and Portland. Obviously YOU are the one that has to study there for 3 years and if Davis feels much better than UMN, then so be it, but UMN is held in very high regard in the entire Northwest region, whereas Davis is predominantly a NorCal school.

Best of luck in whichever school you decide upon.

NorCalBaby
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby NorCalBaby » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:39 am

I agree with everyone else that class standing is what is going to matter at these two schools. If you hit top 10-20%, then you’ll have a nice shot at BigLaw or at getting some sort of sweet gig. Top 50% will still get you a decent job. Something you may want to consider, however, is that the “average” UMN student appears to be “better” than the average Davis student. Much better LSAT and GPA. Plus, Davis has a reputation for being laid back (all the NorCal gunners go to Hastings when they miss out on Berkeley or UCLA, hehe) and you even claim UMN seemed nerdy. Soooo, I know that one can never predict where they’ll end in law school, but I’d wager that your chances if being on the top of your class will be better at Davis than at UMN. Just some food for thought.

NorCalBaby
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby NorCalBaby » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:42 am

UMN does have sweet clerkship placement, though.

NorCalBaby
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby NorCalBaby » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:45 am

Also, UMN does seem to have some national reach. At least way more than Davis. So if you think you want to work anywhere else besides CA someday, UMN may be the way to go.

Devin the Dude
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby Devin the Dude » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:07 am

I know a few UMN grads. All graduated before ITE and about half are quite underemployed. Minneapolis is a wonderful, hip place and lots of people want to live there, including many from HYS. Also, William Mitchell is respected in the cities, although most people figure the U is a little better.

This may not interest you, but I've heard UMN places great in North Dakota if you can drum up some sort of connection. I'm about to attend a lower T1 where things are no better than at UMN, and maybe even worse, so I feel your pain.

I know nothing about Davis, but California is in such a state of fail that your in-state tuition may top $60k by the time you graduate.

I should suggest that I'm in this situation because my GPA is irreparably low, like retard-level. You might think your GPA sucks (I have no idea what it is), but as long as it's 3.something, you can fix yourself up with a 170s LSAT and be in a much better situation. I suggest you do so.

If you really want to go into politics, work on campaigns. It doesn't cost $150k in debt to do that.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:12 am

North Dakota? That should make your decision easy.

FreddyBigShot
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby FreddyBigShot » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:27 am

Devin the Dude wrote:I know a few UMN grads. All graduated before ITE and about half are quite underemployed. Minneapolis is a wonderful, hip place and lots of people want to live there, including many from HYS. Also, William Mitchell is respected in the cities, although most people figure the U is a little better.

This may not interest you, but I've heard UMN places great in North Dakota if you can drum up some sort of connection. I'm about to attend a lower T1 where things are no better than at UMN, and maybe even worse, so I feel your pain.

I know nothing about Davis, but California is in such a state of fail that your in-state tuition may top $60k by the time you graduate.

I should suggest that I'm in this situation because my GPA is irreparably low, like retard-level. You might think your GPA sucks (I have no idea what it is), but as long as it's 3.something, you can fix yourself up with a 170s LSAT and be in a much better situation. I suggest you do so.

If you really want to go into politics, work on campaigns. It doesn't cost $150k in debt to do that.


:shock:

Well this is beyond disconcerting. Luckily, I'll have very little debt, but maybe going back and fulfilling my pre-med requirements would be abetter option and then attending any MD or DO school I can get into (where any graduate is guaranteed a six figure salary and plenty of work). Damn the ABA!!! I've ALWAYS wanted to be a lawyer, but I also plan on having a family to feed.

JOThompson
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby JOThompson » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:43 am

If you're passionate about the law, become a lawyer. You will find a job out of UMN (perhaps not a biglaw one). It's a fine regional school and it absolutely dominates Minneapolis.

FreddyBigShot
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby FreddyBigShot » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:48 am

JOThompson wrote:If you're passionate about the law, become a lawyer. You will find a job out of UMN (perhaps not a biglaw one). It's a fine regional school and it absolutely dominates Minneapolis.


I know I'll find a job. But if it's some shitlaw job that pays $65-80k a year (and I could make that by being a teacher, and get better benefits and job security and need less schooling and and work less and retire earlier), then me thinks my passion may be displaced :(

Devin the Dude
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby Devin the Dude » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:53 am

$65-80k??? Try $18-30k, seriously.

If you want to be a lawyer, go to law school. If you have a family to feed, by all means, run as far as you can.

I only wish MD/DO was an option to me. I'd be doing that in a heartbeat, and I've wanted to be a lawyer for as long as I can remember.

FreddyBigShot
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby FreddyBigShot » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:56 am

Devin the Dude wrote:$65-80k??? Try $18-30k, seriously.

If you want to be a lawyer, go to law school. If you have a family to feed, by all means, run as far as you can.

I only wish MD/DO was an option to me. I'd be doing that in a heartbeat, and I've wanted to be a lawyer for as long as I can remember.


Wait, you're saying that graduates of a T25 law school (UMN), who graduated when the economy was good, are making $18-30k per year?!?!?!?!?!?

:shock:

FreddyBigShot
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby FreddyBigShot » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:12 pm

I should add that I could attend Vandy or UCLA at sticker, but I thought these two options with little debt would be wiser choices. I suppose I'd have a shot at the lower T14 if I reapplied, but if grads from UMN pre-ITE are making $18-$30k, then I suspect grads of GULC and Cornell ITE are making $60-75k with massive debt in areas with higher COL. So, unless I attend HYS on scholly, I shouldn't plan on having kids, I take it?

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jks289
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby jks289 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:24 pm

FreddyBigShot wrote:I should add that I could attend Vandy or UCLA at sticker, but I thought these two options with little debt would be wiser choices. I suppose I'd have a shot at the lower T14 if I reapplied, but if grads from UMN pre-ITE are making $18-$30k, then I suspect grads of GULC and Cornell ITE are making $60-75k with massive debt in areas with higher COL. So, unless I attend HYS on scholly, I shouldn't plan on having kids, I take it?


I think you might be a little confused about hiring and salary stuff. It's not that the lower school you attend the less you make. Anyone going into BigLaw will start at 160K. It doesn't matter where you graduate from. But a larger portion of the higher ranked school are going ot be able to find those jobs, where as only the top 10-20% of the lower ranked school will. Within "shitlaw" as you call (by the way this site is full of people with a vareity of professional values and goals. It isn't all about money so let's not disparage those choices) you will make less, and there is more range within salaries here, depending on market, specialty, firm size, etc. If you want BigLaw and attend any of the schools on your plate (including UCLA and VAndy) you will need to graduate in the top of your class (15-30% depending on the market) and will likely be regionally limited to some degree. So you should balance you geographic preferences, and the amount of debt you are comfortable with. Remember, being debt adverse is smart, but there are also very reasonable ways to manage even large debt loads. This is your entire career and future so make the choice that is right overall, not just the least expensive. Good luck!

FreddyBigShot
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby FreddyBigShot » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:37 pm

jks289 wrote:
FreddyBigShot wrote:I should add that I could attend Vandy or UCLA at sticker, but I thought these two options with little debt would be wiser choices. I suppose I'd have a shot at the lower T14 if I reapplied, but if grads from UMN pre-ITE are making $18-$30k, then I suspect grads of GULC and Cornell ITE are making $60-75k with massive debt in areas with higher COL. So, unless I attend HYS on scholly, I shouldn't plan on having kids, I take it?


I think you might be a little confused about hiring and salary stuff. It's not that the lower school you attend the less you make. Anyone going into BigLaw will start at 160K. It doesn't matter where you graduate from. But a larger portion of the higher ranked school are going ot be able to find those jobs, where as only the top 10-20% of the lower ranked school will. Within "shitlaw" as you call (by the way this site is full of people with a vareity of professional values and goals. It isn't all about money so let's not disparage those choices) you will make less, and there is more range within salaries here, depending on market, specialty, firm size, etc. If you want BigLaw and attend any of the schools on your plate (including UCLA and VAndy) you will need to graduate in the top of your class (15-30% depending on the market) and will likely be regionally limited to some degree. So you should balance you geographic preferences, and the amount of debt you are comfortable with. Remember, being debt adverse is smart, but there are also very reasonable ways to manage even large debt loads. This is your entire career and future so make the choice that is right overall, not just the least expensive. Good luck!


I understand how BigLaw works. But are there any Vandy and UCLA grads who came of age before-ITE, who are making $18-30k per year like there are UMN grads apparently???

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PDaddy
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby PDaddy » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:51 pm

NorCalBaby wrote:I agree with everyone else that class standing is what is going to matter at these two schools. If you hit top 10-20%, then you’ll have a nice shot at BigLaw or at getting some sort of sweet gig. Top 50% will still get you a decent job. Something you may want to consider, however, is that the “average” UMN student appears to be “better” than the average Davis student. Much better LSAT and GPA. Plus, Davis has a reputation for being laid back (all the NorCal gunners go to Hastings when they miss out on Berkeley or UCLA, hehe) and you even claim UMN seemed nerdy. Soooo, I know that one can never predict where they’ll end in law school, but I’d wager that your chances if being on the top of your class will be better at Davis than at UMN. Just some food for thought.


You cannot make this wager, especially if it depends on the LSAT/GPA's of entering students. The school's culture will impact performance. The faculty will impact performance. Whether or not LRW is graded will impact performance. The number of required 1L courses will impact performance. The section OP winds up in will impact performance. Even the weather can impact performance, whether or not someone works better in a sunless environment (like I do, for example).

The "nerdy kids" at Minn might have a better approach to legal studies that becomes infectious and turns OP into a top-5% caliber student. There's no way to pick where one may perform better as a 1L, and certainly not based mostly on LSAT/GPA's. 1L performance depends mainly on the psychology of that individual. If Vandy or UCLA is in the mix, even at sticker, you might still want to take a serious look at them.

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jack duluoz
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby jack duluoz » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:01 pm

i voted umn just to keep the poll closer. lol. :mrgreen:

i dunno, man. 20k is a good chunk of change and u seem to like davis better...

xyzzzzzzzz
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby xyzzzzzzzz » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:02 pm

..
Last edited by xyzzzzzzzz on Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bigben
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby bigben » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:09 pm

Geist13 wrote:
FreddyBigShot wrote: Jobs>>>location at this point (as long as that location is NOT the South).


Exactly. And those jobs are determined much more by your rank and GPA than whether your school is ranked 22 or 30 (I'm not sure of Davis' rank off the top of my head). The importance of jobs is the reason you should, in this instance, pick the school you feel more comfortable at.


yup.

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Fast_Fingers
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby Fast_Fingers » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:12 pm

Since you want to work in California, go Davis. And sorry for being nerdy.

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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby eth3n » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:16 pm

FreddyBigShot wrote:I know I'll find a job. But if it's some shitlaw job that pays $65-80k a year (and I could make that by being a teacher, and get better benefits and job security and need less schooling and and work less and retire earlier), then me thinks my passion may be displaced :(


*must...control...fist of death...*

bigben
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby bigben » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:19 pm

FreddyBigShot wrote:
JOThompson wrote:If you're passionate about the law, become a lawyer. You will find a job out of UMN (perhaps not a biglaw one). It's a fine regional school and it absolutely dominates Minneapolis.


I know I'll find a job. But if it's some shitlaw job that pays $65-80k a year (and I could make that by being a teacher, and get better benefits and job security and need less schooling and and work less and retire earlier), then me thinks my passion may be displaced :(


LOL oh man you have not done your homework. Neither of these schools is going to give you a good shot at big law, and outside of big law, you would be lucky to start at 65k. Below 50k is much more likely, and it's not even a guarantee that you will find a job as a lawyer anywhere.

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jks289
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby jks289 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:23 pm

bigben wrote:
FreddyBigShot wrote:
JOThompson wrote:If you're passionate about the law, become a lawyer. You will find a job out of UMN (perhaps not a biglaw one). It's a fine regional school and it absolutely dominates Minneapolis.


I know I'll find a job. But if it's some shitlaw job that pays $65-80k a year (and I could make that by being a teacher, and get better benefits and job security and need less schooling and and work less and retire earlier), then me thinks my passion may be displaced :(


LOL oh man you have not done your homework. Neither of these schools is going to give you a good shot at big law, and outside of big law, you would be lucky to start at 65k. Below 50k is much more likely, and it's not even a guarantee that you will find a job as a lawyer anywhere.


You obviously haven't done your homework on how these schools place within their regional markets. Everyone on this site just regurgitates the bad advice then have read here, it is this cycle of nonsense. OP knows odds of BigLaw decrease at lower T1, but to say he doesn't have a "good shot" or would be lucky to start at 65K is just incorrect.

keg411
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Re: Davis or UMN - 14 Hours left - Gut vs. Brain - PLEASE HELP!!

Postby keg411 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:23 pm

OP, first off, you need to take a deep breath and relax. It sounds like you are "BigLaw or Bust", in which case, you need to re-take and try for T14. Anything else and you will likely not make 160k out of school and you will have to deal with that. And not making that does not mean that you won't be able to feed your family so you need to relax about that as well.

The opportunites out of UMN and Davis are going to be about equal - only the top 10-20% have a chance at BigLaw (not, not guaranteed; just a chance). Most likely you will not finish that high. You seem to have it right in order to minimize debt and not taking UCLA sticker (and are avoiding Vandy at sticker since you are "no" on the South which I'd agree with even if it's your best shot at "BigLaw or Bust", it might be in a region you don't want).

My suggestion to you is re-take for T14 or decide between UMN/Davis where you would rather practice.




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