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(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
jjr3
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Postby jjr3 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:47 pm

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Hopefullawstudent
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby Hopefullawstudent » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:56 pm

meh. instead of worrying so much about slight fluctuations in particular metrics why can't people just stop worrying about slight fluctuations/differences in the rankings? #5 and #6? both are in the 98th percentile of law schools by rankings with 1/2 of a percent difference between them. why can't people just be happy with that! :wink:

-HL

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Rock Chalk
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby Rock Chalk » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:57 pm

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Rand M.
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby Rand M. » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:09 pm

Rock Chalk wrote:I actually thought it was more negligible until you explained it that way. 50 people out of 260 giving one an A and the other a B means about 1 in 5 people think Chicago is significantly better, assuming no one thinks the opposite.


This is the credited way to look at things. The difference really isn't as negligible as the OP is suggesting.

270910
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby 270910 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:27 pm

The only information that matters: the difference between Chicago and NYU is probably not worth even a third of a letter grade.

What I mean by that is, identically performing students at each institution probably have very close to identical prospects.

The same couldn't be said, say, of Harvard and Penn, where median at Harvard will see much better employment prospects than median at Penn.

The reputation score comes from a tiny sample, by the way. It's also crazy that there are only 5 'slots' in which to rank 200 law schools.

Every single metric UNWR uses is stupid. It just so happens that their rankings reflect employment outcomes, but the causal relationship is usually tenuous at best.

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rayiner
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby rayiner » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:30 pm

That 20% response rate makes the reputation score highly suspect. Coupled with the lack of data about who is being polled, what their geographic distribution is, etc, makes the lawyer/judge ranking to be nearly useless.

showNprove
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby showNprove » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:41 pm

A sample size of 30 has been shown to give a relatively good approximation of averages. Although there could be a number of errors in the methodology of the survey, in general a survey of 260 should not be categorically dismissed.

There is a lot of speculation of error, but no one has any evidence. Skepticism is healthy, but dismissal is not obviously warranted.

FWIW, there is a very strong correlation between those scores and placement (within the T17, > 85%). Northwestern is the school that screws up the correlation most, and its undervaluation in the surveys is also probably why rayiner dismisses them so quickly.

270910
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby 270910 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:43 pm

showNprove wrote:A sample size of 30 has been shown to give a relatively good approximation of averages. Although there could be a number of errors in the methodology of the survey, in general a survey of 260 should not be categorically dismissed.

There is a lot of speculation of error, but no one has any evidence. Skepticism is healthy, but dismissal is not obviously warranted.

FWIW, there is a very strong correlation between those scores and placement (within the T17, > 85%). Northwestern is the school that screws up the correlation most, and its undervaluation in the surveys is also probably why rayiner dismisses them so quickly.


Another big reason is that 2 decades ago, Northwestern wasn't nearly the school it is now in terms of faculty or career prospects for graduates - and a survey of attorneys will include a lot of graduates from that age.

09042014
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby 09042014 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:52 pm

showNprove wrote:A sample size of 30 has been shown to give a relatively good approximation of averages. Although there could be a number of errors in the methodology of the survey, in general a survey of 260 should not be categorically dismissed.

There is a lot of speculation of error, but no one has any evidence. Skepticism is healthy, but dismissal is not obviously warranted.

FWIW, there is a very strong correlation between those scores and placement (within the T17, > 85%). Northwestern is the school that screws up the correlation most, and its undervaluation in the surveys is also probably why rayiner dismisses them so quickly.


A random sample, this one does have a huge degree of self selection going on. There also no reason to believe USNEWs is picking a representative sample to send to.

The rep scores have a great deal of correlation with rankings because they are a huge component of those rankings.

Uva 4.6 when Duke has 4.3, when the place the same? Something is wrong.

And NU really only gets destroyed by the peer rankings. Other deans don't like NU.

CanadianWolf
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:01 pm

I agree that Northwestern Univ. School Of Law deserves a higher ranking & is held back by peer assessment scores that seem unjust compared to the quality of the students, law professors, facilities, funds, law journals & stellar employment statistics. I suspect that the results would be much different if the identity of the peer voters was revealed. It is difficult to gauge any possible bias in the voting without knowing who comprised the 20% of returned ballots, where they went to law school & their current position; but, if these facts were revealed, the response rate would likely decrease.
Desert Fox proposed a rating & ranking system for law schools that eliminated opinion criteria in favor of measuring both quality in & quality out. The quality in was essentially the numerical statistics of entering law students & the quality out was the placement success for the graduating class of each law school.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:10 pm

Then there must be merit to the proposed system.

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AngryAvocado
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby AngryAvocado » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:14 pm

disco_barred wrote:The only information that matters: the difference between Chicago and NYU is probably not worth even a third of a letter grade.

What I mean by that is, identically performing students at each institution probably have very close to identical prospects.

The same couldn't be said, say, of Harvard and Penn, where median at Harvard will see much better employment prospects than median at Penn.

The reputation score comes from a tiny sample, by the way. It's also crazy that there are only 5 'slots' in which to rank 200 law schools.

Every single metric UNWR uses is stupid. It just so happens that their rankings reflect employment outcomes, but the causal relationship is usually tenuous at best.


Right. Chicago and NYU place identically across the board. All those differences in academic placement, elite clerkships, V10/V50/V100 placement, etc. are all due to self-selection. :roll:

The fact of the matter is that Chicago has the better reputation (however slight that advantage may be), and that can be a significant advantage when it comes to certain fields or Creme de la Creme positions. If all you care about is raw biglaw, though, then you're right: the differences are probably pretty minor.

That said, I do agree that the USNWR reputation methodology is a bit wack.

09042014
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby 09042014 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:16 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Desert Fox proposed a rating & ranking system for law schools that eliminated opinion criteria in favor of measuring both quality in & quality out.

TBF, hundreds of people have proposed a ranking system such as this.


But I get credit.

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Rock Chalk
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby Rock Chalk » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:22 pm

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twistedwrister
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby twistedwrister » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:39 pm

Rock Chalk wrote:
AngryAvocado wrote:The fact of the matter is that Chicago has the better reputation (however slight that advantage may be), and that can be a significant advantage when it comes to certain fields or Creme de la Creme positions.

This is kind of what I was getting at. A one in five chance that the person interviewing you/reviewing apps will more highly regard a Chicago degree than one from NYU is not negligible.


Or, there is a chance that the person interviewing you will regard a degree from NYU more highly than one from Chicago.

2008 Vault Law School Rankings (http://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa/education/law-ranking)

1 Stanford Law School
2 University of Michigan Law School
3 New York University School of Law
4 University of Virginia School of Law
5 University of Chicago Law School
6 Harvard Law School
7 Columbia Law School
8 UC Berkeley School of Law
9 Northwestern University School of Law
10 Yale Law School

Honestly, I don't think the Vault rankings mean much, but I don't see why they would mean any less than the USNWR assessment scores. Both are based on surveys of lawyers.

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Rock Chalk
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby Rock Chalk » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:48 pm

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CanadianWolf
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:49 pm

Great analysis.

twistedwrister
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby twistedwrister » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:52 pm

Rock Chalk wrote:
twistedwrister wrote:Or, there is a chance that the person interviewing you will regard a degree from NYU more highly than one from Chicago.

2008 Vault Law School Rankings (http://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa/education/law-ranking)

1 Stanford Law School
2 University of Michigan Law School
3 New York University School of Law
4 University of Virginia School of Law
5 University of Chicago Law School
6 Harvard Law School
7 Columbia Law School
8 UC Berkeley School of Law
9 Northwestern University School of Law
10 Yale Law School

Honestly, I don't think the Vault rankings mean much, but I don't see why they would mean any less than the USNWR assessment scores. Both are based on surveys of lawyers.

TBF, any rankings that put Harvard 6th and Yale 10th are absolute trash.


That's my point. If the Vault rankings are trash, so are the USNWR assessment scores, especially when you are splitting hairs.

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Rock Chalk
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby Rock Chalk » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:01 pm

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CanadianWolf
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:04 pm

Better to ask why is Harvard #6 & Yale #10 than to just trash the rating & ranking system because you don't like the result. For example, what if the results reflected a survey seeking the worst law schools of the USNews top 10?

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Rock Chalk
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby Rock Chalk » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:07 pm

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tamlyric
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby tamlyric » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:09 pm

Rock Chalk wrote:
twistedwrister wrote:Or, there is a chance that the person interviewing you will regard a degree from NYU more highly than one from Chicago.

2008 Vault Law School Rankings (http://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa/education/law-ranking)

1 Stanford Law School
2 University of Michigan Law School
3 New York University School of Law
4 University of Virginia School of Law
5 University of Chicago Law School
6 Harvard Law School
7 Columbia Law School
8 UC Berkeley School of Law
9 Northwestern University School of Law
10 Yale Law School

Honestly, I don't think the Vault rankings mean much, but I don't see why they would mean any less than the USNWR assessment scores. Both are based on surveys of lawyers.

TBF, any rankings that put Harvard 6th and Yale 10th are absolute trash.


TBF, only some rankings that put HLS 6th and YLS 10th are absolute trash. It depends on what the quality being measured is. The Vault rankings are supposed to be measuring how well particular schools prepare their students to work in a "firm environment." Do you know how well these schools prepare their students to work in a firm environment? I certainly don't.

tamlyric
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby tamlyric » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:10 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Better to ask why is Harvard #6 & Yale #10 than to just trash the rating & ranking system because you don't like the result. For example, what if the results reflected a survey seeking the worst law schools of the USNews top 10?


Exactly. :lol:

CanadianWolf
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:12 pm

Great point. My impression is that Yale prepares its law students for independent work & thought that prepares one for a judicial or academic career while law schools such as Northwestern & Duke promote practical, collaborative work efforts.

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Rock Chalk
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Re: USNWR Reputation Scores

Postby Rock Chalk » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:15 pm

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