Giving up this cycle.

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby r6_philly » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:35 pm

I don't think I got this kind of response when I posted about not going to Michigan w/ the 45k. Is it because the OP has different goals than me, or we just feel different somehow? I am curious.

My professors at my UG did caution me quite a bit this week about turning down UM with $$. My plans for the year if I don't go are solid and productive, but I am still unsure if it would be the best decision. Still pondering.

You guys made some great points for OP. They are adding to my own discussion as well.

coulduhelpplz
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby coulduhelpplz » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:40 pm

I fucking love you guys/girls, TLS. Thanks for the comments.

coulduhelpplz
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby coulduhelpplz » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:42 pm

yourdadcalled wrote:
kurla88 wrote:I have to agree with everyone else and say take the money at Michigan and run. With a 169/3.79, I think you're lucky to have gotten the 45K offer at Michigan.


yup


Uhm, not really. Check out LSN. If you got in early, then the $$ is pretty standard as you go up. 169-170 are almost always 45k.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby r6_philly » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:46 pm

coulduhelpplz wrote:
yourdadcalled wrote:
kurla88 wrote:I have to agree with everyone else and say take the money at Michigan and run. With a 169/3.79, I think you're lucky to have gotten the 45K offer at Michigan.


yup


Uhm, not really. Check out LSN. If you got in early, then the $$ is pretty standard as you go up. 169-170 are almost always 45k.


I think they use an index. Splitters also get similar offers. If you get above 172/3.8 you get more. I seems like a few points are worth tens of thousands.

I also didn't get any need based aid other than loans after the scholly. I feel like I can get more aid from HYSC from what I see without a scholly. I don't know what OP's situation is, but I feel like I will be paying more to go to UM with the $$.

coulduhelpplz
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby coulduhelpplz » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:48 pm

MidlawMyth wrote:If $45K at Michigan isn't enough to get you to go to law school, why did you go through the charade of the application process? Unless you are a 3.9/178, that's at the top of the range that almost anyone gets.


I would saw that my knowledge now as a 0L is vastly greater than it was as a -1L. The process of getting ready to apply and actually applying has lasted about 18 months. I'm happy that I know more now about the economy, about the ridiculous amount of grads vs. the scarcity of legal jobs, about the low chances of getting BigLaw/internships, about the myth of international law as a first-year associate...

I think it's OK to question the process; questioning is part of the learning and learning is what makes things interesting for me.

But I do appreciate the point. I probably have spent too much time reading TLS and thinking it's "HYS or you're rocking ID/shitlaw for life."

User avatar
lostjake
Posts: 320
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:07 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby lostjake » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:01 pm

gymboree wrote:The point's been made, but hasn't received enough attention. If you defer going to ls by 1 year, that's 1 year later you'll be practicing as a lawyer -- and therefore getting that salary, whatever it is. It seems you're concerned that salary won't be high enough. Let's pretend that no matter where you go, you get a pretty low starting salary: $60k. However, even if it's only $60,000 that's an additional $20,000/year for each year of law school, thus increasing your scholarship to $65k/year in a sense. Now, could you do that much better by reapplying? Even with a 171? That's highly unlikely. Sure, with a 175+ but, again, that's unlikely.

I gather that you would be applying to many of the same schools (the T14) and they will have seen your application before. It sounds like you wrote a nice one this cycle. But you'll have to start fresh, write a new PS (will it be better or worse than this cycle: unknown), gather at least an additional LOR (another unknown).

The variable and opportunity cost to reapply are too high.

Go to Michigan. Suck it up.

edit: grammar

Fail. You have to consider taxes and COL, plus loans. If he made 60k he'd barely have enough money to buy poop paper. Plus the $$$ money is over 3 years, otherwise he'd be going to school for free. Fail.

To OP, why don't you just take the free money somewhere.

User avatar
GeePee
Posts: 1273
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:35 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby GeePee » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:08 pm

coulduhelpplz wrote:
neimanmarxist wrote:I disagree with the poster above (no hard feelings Z3ro :) ) .

I am also a 0 L

Truthfully I think your chances of ending up above median at Michigan and landing a job that can pay your loans and the rent are better than (anyone's) chances of getting HYS in the next round . Don't bank on an LSAT score you don't have yet. Each successive cycle is wont to be more competitive than the last as the economy declines, the test prep companies get bigger, and students get wiser as to what it takes to make it into a good school. It costs something like $1000 to apply to 20 schools unless you qualify for a lot of fee waivers. If you're re-prepping for the LSAT, the total cost of that endeavor adds up quickly (don't I know it) . And don't forget the opportunity cost of starting to work as a lawyer a full year later.

Go to one of your T14s, work your butt off, and try and hit the median. If you do fabulously, apply to transfer. If you do okay, take marketable courses, do as well as you can, network , consider secondary markets, and get a job. When you get your job, live responsibly, and pay your loans. People are still getting hired out of these places. The sky is not falling. And the chances that it will are about as good as your (anyone's) hypothetical chance at making it into Super Dream School next cycle.


Though I do sort of feel like the sky is falling, I'm not so much worried about that.

I'm more thinking that I would like more money out of Mich (I don't want or need HYSCC). It seems crazy to me that we'll pay 150,000+ just to hunt down scraps in the legal market... 60,000/year, or whatever. I know what type of law I want to do and Mich can help me get there. I'm just at the age (28) where having a family is getting more and more important. Being stuck with crippling debt if I don't work 160 hours a week ist absolute scheisser.

If you don't want HYSCC, then go to Michigan now. If Michigan gave you money, and you don't go, they probably will not accept you next year (given what seems to be rampant YP this year, they will certainly question your motives in reapplying). If you attempt to improve your application by, say, getting a higher LSAT score, a WL seems to be a more likely outcome than in/$$$.

If you're afraid of legal prospects and the current market, don't become a lawyer. If you aren't looking to go to a higher ranked school, Mich with $45k is as good as you'll do now that you've gone through an application cycle.

coulduhelpplz
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby coulduhelpplz » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:11 pm

lostjake wrote:Fail. You have to consider taxes and COL, plus loans. If he made 60k he'd barely have enough money to buy poop paper. Plus the $$$ money is over 3 years, otherwise he'd be going to school for free. Fail.

To OP, why don't you just take the free money somewhere.


I got around 70k/3yrs from the schools one step lower than Mich. Scholarship negotiation with them failed (since they don't know how many people are going yet... not sure how much $$ they have left to give... etc.) so the difference between a t10 degree and, say, Vandy is actually less than the 25k of scholarship money because of COL.

The only argument might be to go to Wash U or UIUC for free. But there's still COL. Does that make Mich more obvious?

Maybe I could seat deposit at Mich and UCLA (if it's possible to do non-binding at both of the schools; I have to check). Then, come June, I could tell UCLA that I'll only go if they give me a full ride (once they have their attendance numbers back in). If they say no, I go to Mich. Silly?

User avatar
lostjake
Posts: 320
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:07 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby lostjake » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:17 pm

You're going to have to pay to live no matter where you go, living in college is actually much cheaper than living in real life unless you live with your parents. To be 100% honest with you I'd take the full ride somewhere and try to do well in your classes. You'll probably find that your chances at UIUC won't be much worse than at Michigan if you do well in your classes. If you do poorly you're not out nearly as much money and will still have a great degree. Same for Wash U.

coulduhelpplz
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby coulduhelpplz » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:19 pm

GeePee wrote:
coulduhelpplz wrote:
neimanmarxist wrote:I disagree with the poster above (no hard feelings Z3ro :) ) .

I am also a 0 L

Truthfully I think your chances of ending up above median at Michigan and landing a job that can pay your loans and the rent are better than (anyone's) chances of getting HYS in the next round . Don't bank on an LSAT score you don't have yet. Each successive cycle is wont to be more competitive than the last as the economy declines, the test prep companies get bigger, and students get wiser as to what it takes to make it into a good school. It costs something like $1000 to apply to 20 schools unless you qualify for a lot of fee waivers. If you're re-prepping for the LSAT, the total cost of that endeavor adds up quickly (don't I know it) . And don't forget the opportunity cost of starting to work as a lawyer a full year later.

Go to one of your T14s, work your butt off, and try and hit the median. If you do fabulously, apply to transfer. If you do okay, take marketable courses, do as well as you can, network , consider secondary markets, and get a job. When you get your job, live responsibly, and pay your loans. People are still getting hired out of these places. The sky is not falling. And the chances that it will are about as good as your (anyone's) hypothetical chance at making it into Super Dream School next cycle.


Though I do sort of feel like the sky is falling, I'm not so much worried about that.

I'm more thinking that I would like more money out of Mich (I don't want or need HYSCC). It seems crazy to me that we'll pay 150,000+ just to hunt down scraps in the legal market... 60,000/year, or whatever. I know what type of law I want to do and Mich can help me get there. I'm just at the age (28) where having a family is getting more and more important. Being stuck with crippling debt if I don't work 160 hours a week ist absolute scheisser.

If you don't want HYSCC, then go to Michigan now. If Michigan gave you money, and you don't go, they probably will not accept you next year (given what seems to be rampant YP this year, they will certainly question your motives in reapplying). If you attempt to improve your application by, say, getting a higher LSAT score, a WL seems to be a more likely outcome than in/$$$.

If you're afraid of legal prospects and the current market, don't become a lawyer. If you aren't looking to go to a higher ranked school, Mich with $45k is as good as you'll do now that you've gone through an application cycle.


Slight "wants my spot at Mich" troll.

Why am I the only one who's afraid of investing $150k just to make $50k/year, even if it is doing what I really want? Am I nuts?

To work in the DOE (my goal), you need to go to a top school with top grades. But govt. work doesn't pay the astronomical sums of money that biglaw does...

MidlawMyth
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:48 am

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby MidlawMyth » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:34 pm

lostjake wrote:You're going to have to pay to live no matter where you go, living in college is actually much cheaper than living in real life unless you live with your parents. To be 100% honest with you I'd take the full ride somewhere and try to do well in your classes. You'll probably find that your chances at UIUC won't be much worse than at Michigan if you do well in your classes. If you do poorly you're not out nearly as much money and will still have a great degree. Same for Wash U.
That's a big "if" to bet a 40 year career on.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby r6_philly » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:45 pm

coulduhelpplz wrote:Slight "wants my spot at Mich" troll.

Why am I the only one who's afraid of investing $150k just to make $50k/year, even if it is doing what I really want? Am I nuts?

To work in the DOE (my goal), you need to go to a top school with top grades. But govt. work doesn't pay the astronomical sums of money that biglaw does...


LRAP will cover $50k jobs with the DOE. If you go to UM, the threshhold is 60k. If you come out making 50k at DOE you will make $0 loan repayments. Have a kid or two you won't have to repay a cent even if you do get salary increases later on.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby r6_philly » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:48 pm

If you are deadset on working PI, DOE or otherwise, go to UM. Don't worry about loans. Other T14s also have LRAPs that cover PI, although I don't know the exact figures. I do know UM's because I looked it up. You have nothing to worry about if you would be happy making less than $100k for 10 years. (I wouldn't be personally, I have kids and I would be making much less than if I don't go to ls).

User avatar
clintonius
Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:50 am

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby clintonius » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:16 pm

Read the entire thread and OP didn't bother to drop the PI bomb until the end? wtf. You say you don't need a top five school, so the potential lsat retake is purely for $ purposes. And you didn't consider the LRAP? Go to Michigan.

februaryftw
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:01 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby februaryftw » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:30 pm

coulduhelpplz wrote:
GeePee wrote:
coulduhelpplz wrote:
neimanmarxist wrote:I disagree with the poster above (no hard feelings Z3ro :) ) .

I am also a 0 L

Truthfully I think your chances of ending up above median at Michigan and landing a job that can pay your loans and the rent are better than (anyone's) chances of getting HYS in the next round . Don't bank on an LSAT score you don't have yet. Each successive cycle is wont to be more competitive than the last as the economy declines, the test prep companies get bigger, and students get wiser as to what it takes to make it into a good school. It costs something like $1000 to apply to 20 schools unless you qualify for a lot of fee waivers. If you're re-prepping for the LSAT, the total cost of that endeavor adds up quickly (don't I know it) . And don't forget the opportunity cost of starting to work as a lawyer a full year later.

Go to one of your T14s, work your butt off, and try and hit the median. If you do fabulously, apply to transfer. If you do okay, take marketable courses, do as well as you can, network , consider secondary markets, and get a job. When you get your job, live responsibly, and pay your loans. People are still getting hired out of these places. The sky is not falling. And the chances that it will are about as good as your (anyone's) hypothetical chance at making it into Super Dream School next cycle.


Though I do sort of feel like the sky is falling, I'm not so much worried about that.

I'm more thinking that I would like more money out of Mich (I don't want or need HYSCC). It seems crazy to me that we'll pay 150,000+ just to hunt down scraps in the legal market... 60,000/year, or whatever. I know what type of law I want to do and Mich can help me get there. I'm just at the age (28) where having a family is getting more and more important. Being stuck with crippling debt if I don't work 160 hours a week ist absolute scheisser.

If you don't want HYSCC, then go to Michigan now. If Michigan gave you money, and you don't go, they probably will not accept you next year (given what seems to be rampant YP this year, they will certainly question your motives in reapplying). If you attempt to improve your application by, say, getting a higher LSAT score, a WL seems to be a more likely outcome than in/$$$.

If you're afraid of legal prospects and the current market, don't become a lawyer. If you aren't looking to go to a higher ranked school, Mich with $45k is as good as you'll do now that you've gone through an application cycle.


Slight "wants my spot at Mich" troll.

Why am I the only one who's afraid of investing $150k just to make $50k/year, even if it is doing what I really want? Am I nuts?

To work in the DOE (my goal), you need to go to a top school with top grades. But govt. work doesn't pay the astronomical sums of money that biglaw does...


I don't know him at all, but I am pretty sure GeePee is in at Harvard and doesn't need your Michigan spot.

I think he is basically right, btw.

User avatar
whuts4lunch
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:54 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby whuts4lunch » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:40 pm

kurla88 wrote:Here's a thought though - deposit at Michigan, and retake the LSAT in June. If you do a lot better, withdraw and reapply to the t-14 next year. You probably won't get into Michigan again, but good shot at everywhere else.


This.

coulduhelpplz
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby coulduhelpplz » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:56 pm

clintonius wrote:Read the entire thread and OP didn't bother to drop the PI bomb until the end? wtf. You say you don't need a top five school, so the potential lsat retake is purely for $ purposes. And you didn't consider the LRAP? Go to Michigan.


my original post:

coulduhelpplz wrote:Ok, so I know some people retake high LSAT scores. Are there as many people who redo cycles?


and

coulduhelpplz wrote:Is this sort of self-doubt normal?


It just sort of melded into what it is. If you check the only other thread I've ever created, all the other info is on there in the first few posts.

I'm just going through a process of doubt. That's the OP.

And yes, getting more money to do PI is perfectly acceptable and applauded on TLS. Just check out any "Michigan Darrow vs. Harvard thread (re: I want to do PI/govt jobs)" and you'll see that people recommend taking the money every time unless, of course, the OP wants to be president or a SCJ.

I know about LRAP, but there are requirements to qualifying... but that's a different convo. Big thanks to r6_philly for bringing it up though.

coulduhelpplz
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby coulduhelpplz » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:57 pm

februaryftw wrote:
coulduhelpplz wrote:
Slight "wants my spot at Mich" troll.

Why am I the only one who's afraid of investing $150k just to make $50k/year, even if it is doing what I really want? Am I nuts?

To work in the DOE (my goal), you need to go to a top school with top grades. But govt. work doesn't pay the astronomical sums of money that biglaw does...


I don't know him at all, but I am pretty sure GeePee is in at Harvard and doesn't need your Michigan spot.

I think he is basically right, btw.


Sorry, sarcasm fail. I meant to write a smiley or something.

mhernton
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby mhernton » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:01 pm

This seems to be a very immature way to look you choice. You took you shot, and it didn't end up perfectly with a full ride, so now you're going to throw away the opportunity of a lifetime. Welcome to the real world where your choices have consequences. We all have the fear of ending up below the median, but most of us are not letting that fear paralyze us. Those of us in the middle of T1 wish we had your problem, admission to 5 T14 schools and a 45K scholarship. Lets put things in perspective for you...I have an MBA and graduated at the bottom of the recession when no one was hiring. I'm already almost a 100K in the hole and I'm going to Law school because adding the degree regardless of the cost is the best way for me to take care of my family. Just remember that you never get anywhere in life without taking a risk....

coulduhelpplz
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby coulduhelpplz » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:05 pm

.

coulduhelpplz
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby coulduhelpplz » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:11 pm

mhernton wrote:This seems to be a very immature way to look you choice.
Maybe, though perhaps my choices are what led to:
mhernton wrote:admission to 5 T14 schools and a 45K scholarship.



And:
mhernton wrote:You took you shot, and it didn't end up perfectly with a full ride, so now you're going to throw away the opportunity of a lifetime.

There are many opportunities in life for people who work hard; the cool part is getting to choose from amongst them.

mhernton wrote:Welcome to the real world where your choices have consequences.

No one's doubting you there. That's why I'm debating throwing down 150k for it.


mhernton wrote:We all have the fear of ending up below the median, but most of us are not letting that fear paralyze us.

Thank you for answering the original question. I appreciate knowing that other people face some amount of doubt as well.

User avatar
A'nold
Posts: 3622
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:07 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby A'nold » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:13 pm

TCS wrote:Why would someone so afraid of six-figure debt even apply to law school in the first place? Do you really expect the world to just hand you money? Do you really only take freerolls, or do you make calculated risks?

You're into a T14, with $. You're already making a safer bet than 95% of students entering law school this year. If that kind of risk is too rich for your blood, you need to consider a career with less pressure, because life in biglaw is going to make you jump out of a fucking window.


I was going to post something, until I saw this gem. TITCR.

This thread baffles me. "Well, since I didn't get a Darrow, I'm going to wait until next year to apply so I can up my LSAT score by 1 or 2 points........" :?: :?:

MidlawMyth
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:48 am

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby MidlawMyth » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:18 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
kurla88 wrote:Here's a thought though - deposit at Michigan, and retake the LSAT in June. If you do a lot better, withdraw and reapply to the t-14 next year. You probably won't get into Michigan again, but good shot at everywhere else.


This.
That would be incredibly stupid. Not only would Michigan certainly reject him, but everyone else that accepted him would too. He has a very high chance of wasting a year of his life AND having a worse outcome.

coulduhelpplz
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:05 pm

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby coulduhelpplz » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:30 pm

I guess I wasn't really intending to defend why I was doubting myself, but to see if others did the same.

You know though, this is top-law-schools.com. I felt like an ass talking about this with my friends (who are going to great T2 schools), but I didn't think I'd get the same reception on this site. Aren't we striving for the best? The very, very fucking best? Just a side note.

User avatar
clintonius
Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:50 am

Re: Giving up this cycle.

Postby clintonius » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:38 pm

coulduhelpplz wrote:Aren't we striving for the best? The very, very fucking best?
coulduhelpplz wrote:I don't want or need HYSCC

Apparently not.

Look, you're confused, which I can appreciate. Just this week I shit myself over the amount of debt I'll be taking on if I decide to attend NYU. It's intimidating as all hell, and I don't think anybody is questioning your hesitation over shelling out that amount of money. It's just that you have received a fantastic offer and are likely to shoot yourself in the foot if you decide it isn't good enough. I'm confused as to what more you want from this forum.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: carlos_danger and 5 guests