Fordham Vs Duke

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thegrandinquisitor
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Re: Fordham Vs Duke

Postby thegrandinquisitor » Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:55 pm

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Last edited by thegrandinquisitor on Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

queenofhearts
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Re: Fordham Vs Duke

Postby queenofhearts » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:08 pm

What kind of PI do you want to go into, what kind of contribution do you want to make to society? From what I understand, Fordham has a really excellent human rights program. Does Duke? From what I know, it seems kind of limited... Also, like OS said, Duke and Fordham are like night and day in terms of lifestyle. Living in NY vs. NC is a drastic difference. I really don't think it's the no-brainer-for-Duke that people are saying it is. It depends on you and where you feel you would fit best, and what kinds of opportunities each school can offer you.

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romothesavior
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Re: Fordham Vs Duke

Postby romothesavior » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:22 pm

queenofhearts wrote:What kind of PI do you want to go into, what kind of contribution do you want to make to society? From what I understand, Fordham has a really excellent human rights program. Does Duke? From what I know, it seems kind of limited... Also, like OS said, Duke and Fordham are like night and day in terms of lifestyle. Living in NY vs. NC is a drastic difference. I really don't think it's the no-brainer-for-Duke that people are saying it is. It depends on you and where you feel you would fit best, and what kinds of opportunities each school can offer you.


Specialty rankings and/or course offerings should only be used as a deal-breaker between two similar schools. Human rights employers aren't going to take a Fordham median kid over a Duke median kid just because the Fordham kid had a really great human rights class or an exciting PI clinic. Plus "human rights" (as I understand it) is a pretty small and competitive field. Everybody wants to be the next Thurgood Marshall, but ain't gonna happen for most.

Unless you just LOVE Fordham and NYC, I cannot see how this is even a question for you. I can understand taking a T30 (pardon me... in this case T34 :D ) for free over a T10 at sticker, but with NYC's high COL and the scholarship from Duke, this shouldn't even be a question. From a cost/benefit point of view, Duke is the clear winner.

queenofhearts
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Re: Fordham Vs Duke

Postby queenofhearts » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:34 pm

romothesavior wrote:
queenofhearts wrote:What kind of PI do you want to go into, what kind of contribution do you want to make to society? From what I understand, Fordham has a really excellent human rights program. Does Duke? From what I know, it seems kind of limited... Also, like OS said, Duke and Fordham are like night and day in terms of lifestyle. Living in NY vs. NC is a drastic difference. I really don't think it's the no-brainer-for-Duke that people are saying it is. It depends on you and where you feel you would fit best, and what kinds of opportunities each school can offer you.


Specialty rankings and/or course offerings should only be used as a deal-breaker between two similar schools. Human rights employers aren't going to take a Fordham median kid over a Duke median kid just because the Fordham kid had a really great human rights class or an exciting PI clinic. Plus "human rights" (as I understand it) is a pretty small and competitive field. Everybody wants to be the next Thurgood Marshall, but ain't gonna happen for most.

Unless you just LOVE Fordham and NYC, I cannot see how this is even a question for you. I can understand taking a T30 (pardon me... in this case T34 :D ) for free over a T10 at sticker, but with NYC's high COL and the scholarship from Duke, this shouldn't even be a question. From a cost/benefit point of view, Duke is the clear winner.


Yes, but the point with Fordham is that it can offer more than just a great human rights class or PI clinic, right? Being in NY enables a lot of networking opportunities that Durham doesn't. Human rights is a lot broader than being the next Thurgood Marshall by the way....

I think the other thing to consider is that rarely is someone who is totally at home and really happy in Durham going to feel the same in NY, and vice versa. I know that things like that don't get too much respect on TLS, but I tend to think that there's some truth to succeeding (by which I mean doing well in law school, obviously not necessarily after you graduate) more where you are most comfortable, etc.

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thickfreakness
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Re: Fordham Vs Duke

Postby thickfreakness » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:36 pm

If you have to be in NYC for law school then go to Fordham.

If you can and want to function in a non-urban environment then you should probably go to Duke.

I think that's about all there is to say that hasn't been said. The only reason you should take Fordham over Duke is that you just need to be in NYC for law school.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Fordham Vs Duke

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:45 pm

queenofhearts wrote:I think the other thing to consider is that rarely is someone who is totally at home and really happy in Durham going to feel the same in NY, and vice versa. I know that things like that don't get too much respect on TLS, but I tend to think that there's some truth to succeeding (by which I mean doing well in law school, obviously not necessarily after you graduate) more where you are most comfortable, etc.


Maybe I'm just adaptable, but I'm pretty comfortable in both San Francisco (home) and Durham (skool).

Although you do bring up a good point, namely that one's personal preferences come into play.

Key for OP is to consider what they want and what kind of opportunities and lifestyle they want, and then to weigh the relative costs.

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Re: Fordham Vs Duke

Postby Geist13 » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:01 am

If you're going for PI it is in your interest to take on more debt and go to the school that open more doors (in this case, over the course of an entire career, many more doors). Look into the CCRAA. Essentially if you get a PI job, your monthly loan payments will be set as a percentage of your income. So it's what you make that determines your payment, not how much you have borrowed. Then, after 120 consecutive payments (10 years in public interest) all of your remaining debt is forgiven without taxation.

Seriously, do a little bit of research. Duke is much much better. Not necessarily in terms of what you learn, but in terms of the immediate advantage you will have over other job applicants (many from schools like fordham).

Again, if you are set on PI, you want to look for the place that gives you the best opportunities; money is a secondary concern if you're going for PI. It makes no sense to limit your career opportunities simply because you don't want to make some monthly payments (especially since you'll still leave fordham with a fair amount of debt). The jobs that are harder to get often have much more interesting work, you want to be able to be as competitive as possible for those jobs.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Fordham Vs Duke

Postby OperaSoprano » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:04 am

queenofhearts wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
queenofhearts wrote:What kind of PI do you want to go into, what kind of contribution do you want to make to society? From what I understand, Fordham has a really excellent human rights program. Does Duke? From what I know, it seems kind of limited... Also, like OS said, Duke and Fordham are like night and day in terms of lifestyle. Living in NY vs. NC is a drastic difference. I really don't think it's the no-brainer-for-Duke that people are saying it is. It depends on you and where you feel you would fit best, and what kinds of opportunities each school can offer you.


Specialty rankings and/or course offerings should only be used as a deal-breaker between two similar schools. Human rights employers aren't going to take a Fordham median kid over a Duke median kid just because the Fordham kid had a really great human rights class or an exciting PI clinic. Plus "human rights" (as I understand it) is a pretty small and competitive field. Everybody wants to be the next Thurgood Marshall, but ain't gonna happen for most.

Unless you just LOVE Fordham and NYC, I cannot see how this is even a question for you. I can understand taking a T30 (pardon me... in this case T34 :D ) for free over a T10 at sticker, but with NYC's high COL and the scholarship from Duke, this shouldn't even be a question. From a cost/benefit point of view, Duke is the clear winner.


Yes, but the point with Fordham is that it can offer more than just a great human rights class or PI clinic, right? Being in NY enables a lot of networking opportunities that Durham doesn't. Human rights is a lot broader than being the next Thurgood Marshall by the way....

I think the other thing to consider is that rarely is someone who is totally at home and really happy in Durham going to feel the same in NY, and vice versa. I know that things like that don't get too much respect on TLS, but I tend to think that there's some truth to succeeding (by which I mean doing well in law school, obviously not necessarily after you graduate) more where you are most comfortable, etc.


This is so true it's ridiculous. As a personal example, I applied only to urban schools with good subway systems, because I don't have a car, and ability to get around is really important to me (I've lived in NYC for almost five years.) This isn't to say that I would never have left NYC for a fabulous deal from a highly ranked school, but even if a suburban or rural T14 had wanted me, it would have been a huge sacrifice to give up my life here. (A sacrifice I might make under the right circumstances, for the right school, but still a sacrifice.) Faced with this decision, one of this year's applicants took Fordham + $75k (ie, not a full ride, since full rides are exceptionally rare) over UVA at sticker. I told her she had to go down to UVA and take a good look at what she was passing up (I did this rather wistfully, given my own recent adventures down there), but due to life and lifestyle circumstances, she deposited at Fordham. I think this was a case of recognizing her own best fit, and I wanted her to be sure before making a life decision this important. For my part, there are some very cool people of my acquaintance who are at Duke, but I know it wouldn't be the best fit for me, even if I'd had any chance at admission.

I felt extraordinarily grateful to be at Fordham, and I will agree with queenofhearts that the success/happiness correlation exists. Whatever I have now, I have because my school gave me a chance. To get back to OP's question, the most prestigious PI employers will care about school and rank, but most others care about your demonstrated commitment to the field. I was able to walk into a wonderful internship ahead of dozens of T14 applicants, and no one ever even asked for my grades. I got this internship because I had networked here in New York, and put in dozens of hours of volunteer work there. The attorney specifically requested me because she knew I cared about the organization, though she hadn't seen my work firsthand. Thus, I might have beat out a Duke applicant for that internship, even one with excellent grades.

If OP wanted biglaw, this logic would not hold, because the hiring criteria is much different. You need to consider how non-elite (IE: most) PI hiring works, and what organizations are looking for.

EDITED: realized I wrote UVA for free, when I meant to write at sticker.

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thickfreakness
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Re: Fordham Vs Duke

Postby thickfreakness » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:09 am

OperaSoprano wrote:As a personal example, I applied only to urban schools with good subway systems, because I don't have a car, and ability to get around is really important to me (I've lived in NYC for almost five years.) This isn't to say that I would never have left NYC for a fabulous deal from a highly ranked school, but even if a suburban or rural T14 had wanted me, it would have been a huge sacrifice to give up my life here. Faced with this decision, one of this year's applicants took Fordham + $75k (ie, not a full ride, since full rides are exceptionally rare) over UVA for free. I told her she had to go down to UVA and take a good look at what she was passing up (I did this rather wistfully, given my own recent adventures down there), but due to life and lifestyle circumstances, she deposited at Fordham. I think this was a case of recognizing her own best fit, and I wanted her to be sure before making a life decision this important. For my part, there are some very cool people of my acquaintance who are at Duke, but I know it wouldn't be the best fit for me, even if I'd had any chance at admission.



Great post, OS.

I actually chose Duke because of the lifestyle concerns. I suppose my numbers would have had a decent chance at CCN, but I'm much more comfortable in a place where I can have space and a slower pace of life. I've been driving everywhere I want to go (and parking in said place's immediate vicinity) since I was around 16, and that's not something that's easy to just give up, especially when my wife is the same way. This is possible (nay, almost necessary) in Durham, not to mention the tremendous amount of space you can get for the money, temperate (but cooler from where I currently sit) weather, and spacious, green campus.

Fordham and Duke are about as disparate as you can get in terms of living standards.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Fordham Vs Duke

Postby OperaSoprano » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:29 am

thickfreakness wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:As a personal example, I applied only to urban schools with good subway systems, because I don't have a car, and ability to get around is really important to me (I've lived in NYC for almost five years.) This isn't to say that I would never have left NYC for a fabulous deal from a highly ranked school, but even if a suburban or rural T14 had wanted me, it would have been a huge sacrifice to give up my life here. Faced with this decision, one of this year's applicants took Fordham + $75k (ie, not a full ride, since full rides are exceptionally rare) over UVA for free. I told her she had to go down to UVA and take a good look at what she was passing up (I did this rather wistfully, given my own recent adventures down there), but due to life and lifestyle circumstances, she deposited at Fordham. I think this was a case of recognizing her own best fit, and I wanted her to be sure before making a life decision this important. For my part, there are some very cool people of my acquaintance who are at Duke, but I know it wouldn't be the best fit for me, even if I'd had any chance at admission.



Great post, OS.

I actually chose Duke because of the lifestyle concerns. I suppose my numbers would have had a decent chance at CCN, but I'm much more comfortable in a place where I can have space and a slower pace of life. I've been driving everywhere I want to go (and parking in said place's immediate vicinity) since I was around 16, and that's not something that's easy to just give up, especially when my wife is the same way. This is possible (nay, almost necessary) in Durham, not to mention the tremendous amount of space you can get for the money, temperate (but cooler from where I currently sit) weather, and spacious, green campus.

Fordham and Duke are about as disparate as you can get in terms of living standards.


Yes! Thank you for posting this. I have never owned a car, and I don't have a driver's license, though I know how to drive and could get one if I had to. My life is about walking, subways, and, if it's late, taxi rides back uptown. Usually, I just walk within my own neighborhood (I live six blocks north of school), unless the weather is terrible. I walk to the grocery store and carry my groceries home in my arms. If my cat needs to go to the vet, I can walk there too. I'll never need to pay for a gym, lol. I could see myself giving this up one day, but it would take a lot more than perceived prestige. I think your choice made absolutely perfect sense, however, and would argue we both have the best standard of living we could have asked for. I have no spacious, green campus, but I have the Metropolitan Opera House and all of gorgeous Lincoln Center directly across 62nd St.

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violinst
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Re: Fordham Vs Duke

Postby violinst » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:03 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
thickfreakness wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:As a personal example, I applied only to urban schools with good subway systems, because I don't have a car, and ability to get around is really important to me (I've lived in NYC for almost five years.) This isn't to say that I would never have left NYC for a fabulous deal from a highly ranked school, but even if a suburban or rural T14 had wanted me, it would have been a huge sacrifice to give up my life here. Faced with this decision, one of this year's applicants took Fordham + $75k (ie, not a full ride, since full rides are exceptionally rare) over UVA for free. I told her she had to go down to UVA and take a good look at what she was passing up (I did this rather wistfully, given my own recent adventures down there), but due to life and lifestyle circumstances, she deposited at Fordham. I think this was a case of recognizing her own best fit, and I wanted her to be sure before making a life decision this important. For my part, there are some very cool people of my acquaintance who are at Duke, but I know it wouldn't be the best fit for me, even if I'd had any chance at admission.



Great post, OS.

I actually chose Duke because of the lifestyle concerns. I suppose my numbers would have had a decent chance at CCN, but I'm much more comfortable in a place where I can have space and a slower pace of life. I've been driving everywhere I want to go (and parking in said place's immediate vicinity) since I was around 16, and that's not something that's easy to just give up, especially when my wife is the same way. This is possible (nay, almost necessary) in Durham, not to mention the tremendous amount of space you can get for the money, temperate (but cooler from where I currently sit) weather, and spacious, green campus.

Fordham and Duke are about as disparate as you can get in terms of living standards.


Yes! Thank you for posting this. I have never owned a car, and I don't have a driver's license, though I know how to drive and could get one if I had to. My life is about walking, subways, and, if it's late, taxi rides back uptown. Usually, I just walk within my own neighborhood (I live six blocks north of school), unless the weather is terrible. I walk to the grocery store and carry my groceries home in my arms. If my cat needs to go to the vet, I can walk there too. I'll never need to pay for a gym, lol. I could see myself giving this up one day, but it would take a lot more than perceived prestige. I think your choice made absolutely perfect sense, however, and would argue we both have the best standard of living we could have asked for. I have no spacious, green campus, but I have the Metropolitan Opera House and all of gorgeous Lincoln Center directly across 62nd St.


Suddenly, everything makes sense to me, for I know exactly what all of you are talking about. (a former New Yorker who had spent years in the Midwest before settling in the South recently).

Hey-O
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Re: Fordham Vs Duke

Postby Hey-O » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:42 pm

Well, I chose Fordham and I'm really happy with the decision. I can't wait to go to school in the fall. I hope I'm right.




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