Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

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ilovelawapps
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby ilovelawapps » Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:35 am

What are you leaning towards?
Last edited by ilovelawapps on Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby Blindmelon » Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:52 am

BU student here - so I'm biased, but I agree that Fordham > BU for NYC. Strong regional school with the ability to network directly in the city.
If you want options outside of NY though, BU > Fordham basically everywhere else.

ilovelawapps
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby ilovelawapps » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:06 am

Blindmelon wrote:BU student here - so I'm biased, but I agree that Fordham > BU for NYC. Strong regional school with the ability to network directly in the city.
If you want options outside of NY though, BU > Fordham basically everywhere else.


Thanks for the advice. Lets say I wanted to keep my options open (say west coast, maybe international), but then decided I wanted to work in NYC after graduation-am I going to be at a huge advantage. I went to the ASD and people were generally saying that ~30% (I think) go to NYC to work. Is that the top 30% and are those at nlj250 firms? I guess I really want to keep my NYC options open but dont want to be limited to them. Bottom line, do BU grads have good chances at getting jobs in NYC?

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vanwinkle
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:46 am

ilovelawapps wrote:Thanks for the advice. Lets say I wanted to keep my options open (say west coast, maybe international)

If this is your goal, neither BU or Fordham is the right choice for you. If you want to work on the west coast, you need to aim for a west coast school (one of the UC schools, for example) or aim further upward (T14). If by "international" you mean you really want to work abroad, you need to aim for HYS.

If what you mean by "international" is just "work for a law firm that does at least some international transactional work", then you probably do want to aim for NYC BigLaw, and Fordham is your best bet. However, you need to understand that this isn't going to be some romantic thing where they put you on flights to romantic international destinations. You're going to do the same paperwork for the same American companies in the same American office buildings all day, it'll just be paperwork for a company that wants to open a site in Rome or something.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby Blindmelon » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:15 pm

Well, ITE who the hell knows. I don't think that the top of class necessarily heads to NYC, there are a bunch of biglaw offices in Boston that BU grads go to. BU has really strong ties to NYC, but ITE NYC is not in good shape and the competition is tough. We out-placed Fordham in biglaw in 2009 (by like 6% or whatever, not that much) but its most likely because we feed a ton locally and Boston is a pretty insular market and our main competition is the H-bomb (who splinter off to wherever) and BC (which is on equal footing).

I agree with a lot of what winkle says - international law is mainly a myth - but I would say BU has a definite edge over Fordham when it comes to foreign placement. We have a massive LLM program and the school leverages their contacts to place non-LLM students abroad. Also, because of this, BU has a much better international rep. then you would think. For example, the UN High Commissioner's office generally takes very very few interns from US Law schools. This year, they took students from only 3 schools - Harvard, Stanford, and BU.
This year - BU won Oxford's International IP law moot court competition - BU law was the only American school competing.
We have a ton of study abroad opportunities (I think they are a rip off), but they have a international law clinic thats done via web conferencing - the "African I-Parliment Clinic" where students work remotely with UN’s Economic Development Office in Nairobi on legislative analysis, drafting and recommendations.
BU was one of four Schools named to Public Service Honor Roll by The National Jurist Magazine - includes international service opportunities.
Theres a 1L international law recruitment program - 1 friend of mine got a job a firm in Brazil and another in France through it. You have to be fluent though.
Also - we have a ton of alumni in the state department, etc and I've found them extremely helpful. I won't go into details - but a lot of alumni work abroad and are really helpful.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby OperaSoprano » Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:36 pm

Blindmelon wrote:Well, ITE who the hell knows. I don't think that the top of class necessarily heads to NYC, there are a bunch of biglaw offices in Boston that BU grads go to. BU has really strong ties to NYC, but ITE NYC is not in good shape and the competition is tough. We out-placed Fordham in biglaw in 2009 (by like 6% or whatever, not that much) but its most likely because we feed a ton locally and Boston is a pretty insular market and our main competition is the H-bomb (who splinter off to wherever) and BC (which is on equal footing).

I agree with a lot of what winkle says - international law is mainly a myth - but I would say BU has a definite edge over Fordham when it comes to foreign placement. We have a massive LLM program and the school leverages their contacts to place non-LLM students abroad. Also, because of this, BU has a much better international rep. then you would think. For example, the UN High Commissioner's office generally takes very very few interns from US Law schools. This year, they took students from only 3 schools - Harvard, Stanford, and BU.
This year - BU won Oxford's International IP law moot court competition - BU law was the only American school competing.
We have a ton of study abroad opportunities (I think they are a rip off), but they have a international law clinic thats done via web conferencing - the "African I-Parliment Clinic" where students work remotely with UN’s Economic Development Office in Nairobi on legislative analysis, drafting and recommendations.
BU was one of four Schools named to Public Service Honor Roll by The National Jurist Magazine - includes international service opportunities.
Theres a 1L international law recruitment program - 1 friend of mine got a job a firm in Brazil and another in France through it. You have to be fluent though.
Also - we have a ton of alumni in the state department, etc and I've found them extremely helpful. I won't go into details - but a lot of alumni work abroad and are really helpful.


To be noted: In 2009 and 2007, BU posted a higher percentage of grads going into NLJ250 jobs, however, in 2008, 2006 and 2005, Fordham beat BU. I should point out that there is some underreporting in the NLJ250 data (IE: some firms that employed both Fordham and BU grads declined to make mention of these new hires). We don't know the response rate for the NLJ250 reports, which is frustrating, because they are just about the only unbiased source for this information. Schools are obviously not unbiased, but they do let us know what percentage of grads sent in salary and employment data.

I recently attended Fordham's OCI orientation, and received our OCI list, current as of April 7th. I was impressed. Last year we had 253 firms, and as the economy improves (and more employers register) we may beat that number. Statistics are available here: --LinkRemoved-- -- You can check firms that hire from BU as well.

JB6816
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby JB6816 » Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:42 pm

I would pick BU.

In my opinion, if you are not 100% set on NYC, BU will afford you more opportunities after graduation.

lshopeful3232
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby lshopeful3232 » Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:47 pm

JB6816 wrote:I would pick BU.

In my opinion, if you are not 100% set on NYC, BU will afford you more opportunities after graduation.



interesting, perhaps MORE opportunities as in, more locations for employment.....but are they BETTER? (im talking salary here)

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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby Informative » Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:13 am

Forham places significantly better in NYC. This is a no-brainer.

ilovelawapps
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby ilovelawapps » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:56 am

vanwinkle wrote:
ilovelawapps wrote:Thanks for the advice. Lets say I wanted to keep my options open (say west coast, maybe international)

If this is your goal, neither BU or Fordham is the right choice for you. If you want to work on the west coast, you need to aim for a west coast school (one of the UC schools, for example) or aim further upward (T14). If by "international" you mean you really want to work abroad, you need to aim for HYS.

If what you mean by "international" is just "work for a law firm that does at least some international transactional work", then you probably do want to aim for NYC BigLaw, and Fordham is your best bet. However, you need to understand that this isn't going to be some romantic thing where they put you on flights to romantic international destinations. You're going to do the same paperwork for the same American companies in the same American office buildings all day, it'll just be paperwork for a company that wants to open a site in Rome or something.


I really appreciate all the info you gave me here, I had no idea about BU's foreign placement. Im not dead set on doing international law, I just think it would be awesome to work abroad for 2 years or so in a US firms foreign office or something. Again, Vanwinkle says you have to be HYS material for that though so, who knows.

OS-Thank you for the link, it was really helpful. I'm visiting Fordham tomorrow (I already went an ASD but it was back in January so I want to see the school again). Tough choice man!

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vanwinkle
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:37 pm

ilovelawapps wrote:I really appreciate all the info you gave me here, I had no idea about BU's foreign placement. Im not dead set on doing international law, I just think it would be awesome to work abroad for 2 years or so in a US firms foreign office or something. Again, Vanwinkle says you have to be HYS material for that though so, who knows.

Lemme clarify what I meant. It's possible to actually do international law from lower-ranked schools than HYS, at each school a few people do it every year. It's rare, though, and something you've really gotta fight for to develop even a chance at. If you really, really want to do it, going to HYS is your only strong shot at it, because those schools are recognized internationally very easily compared to, say, Fordham or BU.

However, that's really referring to BigLaw-type jobs. If you want to go do a fellowship that involves volunteering in South Africa for a couple years or something, that should be much easier to line up. But I got the impression you were talking more about corporate law since you discussed IP and the NLJ250; if you're willing to go do low-paying PI work, then there's a lot more open to you internationally to do.

ilovelawapps
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby ilovelawapps » Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:40 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
ilovelawapps wrote:I really appreciate all the info you gave me here, I had no idea about BU's foreign placement. Im not dead set on doing international law, I just think it would be awesome to work abroad for 2 years or so in a US firms foreign office or something. Again, Vanwinkle says you have to be HYS material for that though so, who knows.

Lemme clarify what I meant. It's possible to actually do international law from lower-ranked schools than HYS, at each school a few people do it every year. It's rare, though, and something you've really gotta fight for to develop even a chance at. If you really, really want to do it, going to HYS is your only strong shot at it, because those schools are recognized internationally very easily compared to, say, Fordham or BU.

However, that's really referring to BigLaw-type jobs. If you want to go do a fellowship that involves volunteering in South Africa for a couple years or something, that should be much easier to line up. But I got the impression you were talking more about corporate law since you discussed IP and the NLJ250; if you're willing to go do low-paying PI work, then there's a lot more open to you internationally to do.


This is going a little off topic, but I've noticed that a lot of biglaw firms have foreign offices (say in Europe). Assuming one gets a job at such a firm in the US, does anyone know how difficult it is to "transfer" to a foreign office for a few years? I'm assuming it's a lot more complicated than submitting a transfer request form...

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chicoalto0649
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby chicoalto0649 » Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:55 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:Well, ITE who the hell knows. I don't think that the top of class necessarily heads to NYC, there are a bunch of biglaw offices in Boston that BU grads go to. BU has really strong ties to NYC, but ITE NYC is not in good shape and the competition is tough. We out-placed Fordham in biglaw in 2009 (by like 6% or whatever, not that much) but its most likely because we feed a ton locally and Boston is a pretty insular market and our main competition is the H-bomb (who splinter off to wherever) and BC (which is on equal footing).

I agree with a lot of what winkle says - international law is mainly a myth - but I would say BU has a definite edge over Fordham when it comes to foreign placement. We have a massive LLM program and the school leverages their contacts to place non-LLM students abroad. Also, because of this, BU has a much better international rep. then you would think. For example, the UN High Commissioner's office generally takes very very few interns from US Law schools. This year, they took students from only 3 schools - Harvard, Stanford, and BU.
This year - BU won Oxford's International IP law moot court competition - BU law was the only American school competing.
We have a ton of study abroad opportunities (I think they are a rip off), but they have a international law clinic thats done via web conferencing - the "African I-Parliment Clinic" where students work remotely with UN’s Economic Development Office in Nairobi on legislative analysis, drafting and recommendations.
BU was one of four Schools named to Public Service Honor Roll by The National Jurist Magazine - includes international service opportunities.
Theres a 1L international law recruitment program - 1 friend of mine got a job a firm in Brazil and another in France through it. You have to be fluent though.
Also - we have a ton of alumni in the state department, etc and I've found them extremely helpful. I won't go into details - but a lot of alumni work abroad and are really helpful.


To be noted: In 2009 and 2007, BU posted a higher percentage of grads going into NLJ250 jobs, however, in 2008, 2006 and 2005, Fordham beat BU. I should point out that there is some underreporting in the NLJ250 data (IE: some firms that employed both Fordham and BU grads declined to make mention of these new hires). We don't know the response rate for the NLJ250 reports, which is frustrating, because they are just about the only unbiased source for this information. Schools are obviously not unbiased, but they do let us know what percentage of grads sent in salary and employment data.

I recently attended Fordham's OCI orientation, and received our OCI list, current as of April 7th. I was impressed. Last year we had 253 firms, and as the economy improves (and more employers register) we may beat that number. Statistics are available here: --LinkRemoved-- -- You can check firms that hire from BU as well.


IIRC at ASD, career services said they only had like....~150 firms (not including resume collect) which made me :shock: because in years past they had way more..... Are you trying to say that Fordham's OCI is going to be much better attended.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:06 pm

chicoalto0649 wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:Well, ITE who the hell knows. I don't think that the top of class necessarily heads to NYC, there are a bunch of biglaw offices in Boston that BU grads go to. BU has really strong ties to NYC, but ITE NYC is not in good shape and the competition is tough. We out-placed Fordham in biglaw in 2009 (by like 6% or whatever, not that much) but its most likely because we feed a ton locally and Boston is a pretty insular market and our main competition is the H-bomb (who splinter off to wherever) and BC (which is on equal footing).

I agree with a lot of what winkle says - international law is mainly a myth - but I would say BU has a definite edge over Fordham when it comes to foreign placement. We have a massive LLM program and the school leverages their contacts to place non-LLM students abroad. Also, because of this, BU has a much better international rep. then you would think. For example, the UN High Commissioner's office generally takes very very few interns from US Law schools. This year, they took students from only 3 schools - Harvard, Stanford, and BU.
This year - BU won Oxford's International IP law moot court competition - BU law was the only American school competing.
We have a ton of study abroad opportunities (I think they are a rip off), but they have a international law clinic thats done via web conferencing - the "African I-Parliment Clinic" where students work remotely with UN’s Economic Development Office in Nairobi on legislative analysis, drafting and recommendations.
BU was one of four Schools named to Public Service Honor Roll by The National Jurist Magazine - includes international service opportunities.
Theres a 1L international law recruitment program - 1 friend of mine got a job a firm in Brazil and another in France through it. You have to be fluent though.
Also - we have a ton of alumni in the state department, etc and I've found them extremely helpful. I won't go into details - but a lot of alumni work abroad and are really helpful.


To be noted: In 2009 and 2007, BU posted a higher percentage of grads going into NLJ250 jobs, however, in 2008, 2006 and 2005, Fordham beat BU. I should point out that there is some underreporting in the NLJ250 data (IE: some firms that employed both Fordham and BU grads declined to make mention of these new hires). We don't know the response rate for the NLJ250 reports, which is frustrating, because they are just about the only unbiased source for this information. Schools are obviously not unbiased, but they do let us know what percentage of grads sent in salary and employment data.

I recently attended Fordham's OCI orientation, and received our OCI list, current as of April 7th. I was impressed. Last year we had 253 firms, and as the economy improves (and more employers register) we may beat that number. Statistics are available here: --LinkRemoved-- -- You can check firms that hire from BU as well.


IIRC at ASD, career services said they only had like....~150 firms (not including resume collect) which made me :shock: because in years past they had way more..... Are you trying to say that Fordham's OCI is going to be much better attended.


I am going by the NALP data (I am not sure if they include firms that resume collect). I believe these numbers were updated recently, and are from the last graduating class, but someone will hopefully correct me if I am wrong. Our list won't be finalized for a while, but it is already shaping up well. No one knows for sure whether our OCI will be much better attended, but the consensus is that hiring will pick up, since few firms deferred associates all the way to 2012. I only have anecdotal evidence from friends at firms re: hiring uptick, and I don't want to generalize, but I am cautiously optimistic for this year's OCI. We're not headed into bubble times again, but many of us think it won't be a complete disaster. I did decide to participate, so I will be watching market conditions.

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chicoalto0649
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby chicoalto0649 » Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:28 pm

Ah cool. So you are doing OCI....do you know what you're doing this summer?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:40 pm

chicoalto0649 wrote:Ah cool. So you are doing OCI....do you know what you're doing this summer?


Yes, and I'm very excited. Will PM you.

ilovelawapps
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby ilovelawapps » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:21 pm

Does BU being 48k cheaper change any of your minds?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:32 pm

ilovelawapps wrote:Does BU being 48k cheaper change any of your minds?


That doesn't make it place better than Fordham does in NYC, but it makes it a really good value and is certainly something you should consider. I generally hold that personal happiness + career placement are more important than money, but it sounds as though you like BU, and you should attend the school that is the best all around fit.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby Blindmelon » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:04 am

ilovelawapps wrote:Does BU being 48k cheaper change any of your minds?


48k is a lot of money. Also, Boston COL is much lower.

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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby imisscollege » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:26 am

BU will give you much better name portability on the west coast (see alum placement) if you do eventually wanna end up in Cali

Informative
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby Informative » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:02 am

Both schools are regional. The usual rule applies: If you want to work in Boston, go to BU. If you want to work in NYC, go to Fordham. Cost should be taken into account as well, but generally, you should try to go to a school in the city you want to work in.

Fordham - NYC
BU - Boston

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Always Credited
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby Always Credited » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:06 am

Informative wrote:Both schools are regional. The usual rule applies: If you want to work in Boston, go to BU. If you want to work in NYC, go to Fordham. Cost should be taken into account as well, but generally, you should try to go to a school in the city you want to work in.

Fordham - NYC
BU - Boston


This isn't entirely accurate. Fordham absolutely "locks" you into NYC in a way that BU doesn't "lock" you into Boston - BU offers portability where Fordham offers none. BU can get you out of Boston, Fordham won't get you out of New York (generally).

Fordham's relative advantage here is that most people want portability in order TO GO TO New York City, heh.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby Blindmelon » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:26 am

Always Credited wrote:
Informative wrote:Both schools are regional. The usual rule applies: If you want to work in Boston, go to BU. If you want to work in NYC, go to Fordham. Cost should be taken into account as well, but generally, you should try to go to a school in the city you want to work in.

Fordham - NYC
BU - Boston


This isn't entirely accurate. Fordham absolutely "locks" you into NYC in a way that BU doesn't "lock" you into Boston - BU offers portability where Fordham offers none. BU can get you out of Boston, Fordham won't get you out of New York (generally).

Fordham's relative advantage here is that most people want portability in order TO GO TO New York City, heh.


Credited. As always?

But yea, Informative, only about half of BU's class stays in the MA/CT/RI/VT area. About 1/4 go to NYC and from there about 10-15% go to the West Coast and the rest spread around randomly, but most of the stragglers under up in the DC area.

I think Fordham is around 90% NYC, correct me if I'm wrong.

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MC Southstar
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby MC Southstar » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:27 am

NYC is the only civilized place on Earth, hth.

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Always Credited
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Re: Is Fordham REALLY that much better for NYC than BU??

Postby Always Credited » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:33 am

Blindmelon wrote:
Always Credited wrote:
Informative wrote:Both schools are regional. The usual rule applies: If you want to work in Boston, go to BU. If you want to work in NYC, go to Fordham. Cost should be taken into account as well, but generally, you should try to go to a school in the city you want to work in.

Fordham - NYC
BU - Boston


This isn't entirely accurate. Fordham absolutely "locks" you into NYC in a way that BU doesn't "lock" you into Boston - BU offers portability where Fordham offers none. BU can get you out of Boston, Fordham won't get you out of New York (generally).

Fordham's relative advantage here is that most people want portability in order TO GO TO New York City, heh.


Credited. As always?

But yea, Informative, only about half of BU's class stays in the MA/CT/RI/VT area. About 1/4 go to NYC and from there about 10-15% go to the West Coast and the rest spread around randomly, but most of the stragglers under up in the DC area.

I think Fordham is around 90% NYC, correct me if I'm wrong.


96% based on their latest employment data. I tend to be skeptical of all school-released statistics, but that's one I happen to believe.




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