BP decides where you go to law school Forum

[NayBoer]

Indiana, Bloomington- full ride
WUSTL- $11,000/year

Loved St. Louis, not sure about Bloomington- nearest large city an hour away

Most concerned about career prospects

For c/o 2009
http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf
#24 WUSTL 27.5
Not ranked ( > #50) IUB ( < 13.2%)

For c/o 2005
http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414 ... trends.pdf
WUSTL ranked #21, roughly 27.5% placement
IUB ranked #42, roughly 14% placement

For career prospects, WUSTL. For debt, IUB (if you're okay living in IN and crossing fingers for Chicago).

[dontstopbelivin]

Ok, I'll give mine a go:

UVA @ sticker
University of Arizona @$35,000/year (so tuition, room/board, fees covered; 3.2 GPA requirement)

Originally from Arizona = family ties/legal connections; living in DC now = friends/preferred coast

Want to end up in either SF or DC, with Texas as a possible option. Likely do either appellate litigation or international law, and want to clerk for a federal judge then big law.

I loved UVA, but also don't want to be paying for 3 years of fun by living on a student budget for the next 25.

Thoughts?

[NayBoer]

Ok, I'll give mine a go:

UVA @ sticker
University of Arizona @$35,000/year (so tuition, room/board, fees covered)

Originally from Arizona = family ties/legal connections; living in DC now = friends/preferred coast

Want to end up in either SF or DC, with Texas as a possible option. Likely do either appellate litigation or international law, and want to clerk for a federal judge then big law.

I loved UVA, but also don't want to be paying for 3 years of fun by living on a student budget for the next 25.

Thoughts?

Not U of A if you want SF, DC, TX. UVA better for those, especially for DC.

[98234872348]

If money is not an issue, imho from tons of experience in the city and with people in really influential law firms in the area, Miami >>> UF. Anyway, if you're a good student and the difference for hiring potential in big law firms in the area is marginal between the two, it really comes down to this: Would you rather spend 3 yrs in Miami or 3 yrs in Gainsville. Again, this is why I didn't want to get into this discussion because for me, going to Miami over UF is a no-brainer.

I don't understand people who say "money is not an object" when they're going to be spending 200k on school in addition the the opportunity cost of forgoing three years of salary. You realize that the majority of UM grads will start out making <60k year, right?

[1L2b]

If money is not an issue, imho from tons of experience in the city and with people in really influential law firms in the area, Miami >>> UF. Anyway, if you're a good student and the difference for hiring potential in big law firms in the area is marginal between the two, it really comes down to this: Would you rather spend 3 yrs in Miami or 3 yrs in Gainsville. Again, this is why I didn't want to get into this discussion because for me, going to Miami over UF is a no-brainer.

I don't understand people who say "money is not an object" when they're going to be spending 200k on school in addition the the opportunity cost of forgoing three years of salary. You realize that the majority of UM grads will start out making <60k year, right?

I'm not saying in an absolute sense for all people it isn't (and saying this will unfortunately inevitably label me as "snobbish) but I don't particularly have to worry about that department. Just being honest. So don't you worry about my not worrying about it

[NayBoer]

If money is not an issue, imho from tons of experience in the city and with people in really influential law firms in the area, Miami >>> UF. Anyway, if you're a good student and the difference for hiring potential in big law firms in the area is marginal between the two, it really comes down to this: Would you rather spend 3 yrs in Miami or 3 yrs in Gainsville. Again, this is why I didn't want to get into this discussion because for me, going to Miami over UF is a no-brainer.

I don't understand people who say "money is not an object" when they're going to be spending 200k on school in addition the the opportunity cost of forgoing three years of salary. You realize that the majority of UM grads will start out making <60k year, right?

Everyone in Ann Arbor hates your maliciously vague use of school acronyms.

[98234872348]

If money is not an issue, imho from tons of experience in the city and with people in really influential law firms in the area, Miami >>> UF. Anyway, if you're a good student and the difference for hiring potential in big law firms in the area is marginal between the two, it really comes down to this: Would you rather spend 3 yrs in Miami or 3 yrs in Gainsville. Again, this is why I didn't want to get into this discussion because for me, going to Miami over UF is a no-brainer.

I don't understand people who say "money is not an object" when they're going to be spending 200k on school in addition the the opportunity cost of forgoing three years of salary. You realize that the majority of UM grads will start out making <60k year, right?

I'm not saying in an absolute sense for all people it isn't (and saying this will unfortunately inevitably label me as "snobbish) but I don't particularly have to worry about that department. Just being honest. So don't you worry about my not worrying about it

Bro, if money is no object go where you feel comfortable, neither of these schools afford a significant edge in employment prospects and, to be honest, it's going to come down to where you want to live.

[flyingpanda]

Dear BP,

(Let me preface this by saying I'm on a WL at the higher ranked school so this may or may not even be an option .. I'm pretty much trying to gauge how hard I should try to get off of it.)

Vandy @ sticker (approx 200k) or UGA in-state (approx 85k). I'd like to be in the SE (DC through ATL) and am looking primarily at some type of corporate/transactional work. I know I know this seems like a no brainer but I'm also fairly debt averse; is it really worth +100k??

Thanks,
<3 Ms.Vik

MissVik!!! <3

I say go for Vandy, I think it's worth the additional debt even though it'll be hard to swallow (that sounded wrong). Vandy is just that much stronger, especially since you want to work in the South which is Vandy's playing field.

[1L2b]

If money is not an issue, imho from tons of experience in the city and with people in really influential law firms in the area, Miami >>> UF. Anyway, if you're a good student and the difference for hiring potential in big law firms in the area is marginal between the two, it really comes down to this: Would you rather spend 3 yrs in Miami or 3 yrs in Gainsville. Again, this is why I didn't want to get into this discussion because for me, going to Miami over UF is a no-brainer.

I don't understand people who say "money is not an object" when they're going to be spending 200k on school in addition the the opportunity cost of forgoing three years of salary. You realize that the majority of UM grads will start out making <60k year, right?

I'm not saying in an absolute sense for all people it isn't (and saying this will unfortunately inevitably label me as "snobbish) but I don't particularly have to worry about that department. Just being honest. So don't you worry about my not worrying about it

Bro, if money is no object go where you feel comfortable, neither of these schools afford a significant edge in employment prospects and, to be honest, it's going to come down to where you want to live.

I am not a "bro." That is all

[D-hops]

If money is not an issue, imho from tons of experience in the city and with people in really influential law firms in the area, Miami >>> UF. Anyway, if you're a good student and the difference for hiring potential in big law firms in the area is marginal between the two, it really comes down to this: Would you rather spend 3 yrs in Miami or 3 yrs in Gainsville. Again, this is why I didn't want to get into this discussion because for me, going to Miami over UF is a no-brainer.

I don't understand people who say "money is not an object" when they're going to be spending 200k on school in addition the the opportunity cost of forgoing three years of salary. You realize that the majority of UM grads will start out making <60k year, right?

Everyone in Ann Arbor hates your maliciously vague use of school acronyms.

I actually got really confused for a second when I read that. Then I realized they were talking about The "U"

[NayBoer]

If money is not an issue, imho from tons of experience in the city and with people in really influential law firms in the area, Miami >>> UF. Anyway, if you're a good student and the difference for hiring potential in big law firms in the area is marginal between the two, it really comes down to this: Would you rather spend 3 yrs in Miami or 3 yrs in Gainsville. Again, this is why I didn't want to get into this discussion because for me, going to Miami over UF is a no-brainer.

I don't understand people who say "money is not an object" when they're going to be spending 200k on school in addition the the opportunity cost of forgoing three years of salary. You realize that the majority of UM grads will start out making <60k year, right?

Everyone in Ann Arbor hates your maliciously vague use of school acronyms.

I actually got really confused for a second when I read that. Then I realized they were talking about The "U"

Nobody in Ann Arbor actually calls it UM, right? For some reason I usually call it UMich (yoomish). Not sure where I picked that up.

[missvik218]

Dear BP,

(Let me preface this by saying I'm on a WL at the higher ranked school so this may or may not even be an option .. I'm pretty much trying to gauge how hard I should try to get off of it.)

Vandy @ sticker (approx 200k) or UGA in-state (approx 85k). I'd like to be in the SE (DC through ATL) and am looking primarily at some type of corporate/transactional work. I know I know this seems like a no brainer but I'm also fairly debt averse; is it really worth +100k??

Thanks,
<3 Ms.Vik

MissVik!!! <3

I say go for Vandy, I think it's worth the additional debt even though it'll be hard to swallow (that sounded wrong). Vandy is just that much stronger, especially since you want to work in the South which is Vandy's playing field.

PANDA!!! It's been too long. You seem to echo the general consensus, thanks for responding!

Are you getting excited picking out apartments, etc. in Charlottesville?? (You can PM me as to not derail the thread.)

[D-hops]

Nobody in Ann Arbor actually calls it UM, right? For some reason I usually call it UMich (yoomish). Not sure where I picked that up.

Depends on the context. People say "U of M" most of the time, but you see and hear UM, Umich, M, Mich, all being used.

[flyingpanda]

Dear BP,

(Let me preface this by saying I'm on a WL at the higher ranked school so this may or may not even be an option .. I'm pretty much trying to gauge how hard I should try to get off of it.)

Vandy @ sticker (approx 200k) or UGA in-state (approx 85k). I'd like to be in the SE (DC through ATL) and am looking primarily at some type of corporate/transactional work. I know I know this seems like a no brainer but I'm also fairly debt averse; is it really worth +100k??

Thanks,
<3 Ms.Vik

MissVik!!! <3

I say go for Vandy, I think it's worth the additional debt even though it'll be hard to swallow (that sounded wrong). Vandy is just that much stronger, especially since you want to work in the South which is Vandy's playing field.

PANDA!!! It's been too long. You seem to echo the general consensus, thanks for responding!

Are you getting excited picking out apartments, etc. in Charlottesville?? (You can PM me as to not derail the thread.)

My days of caring about derailing threads is long over . I've already picked out and signed the lease for an apartment. It's awesome, literally 0.2 miles from school. Pretty excited to be moving out to the South to play softball and pickup Southern Belles (I'm assuming that law school will be super easy and won't take up much of my time.

[big_blue79]

Dollar amounts are total costs over three years (GI Bill and schollies included, assumed a high CoA and no tuition increases):

NYU - $60.000
Mich - $53,000
NU - $67,000

Awaiting decision:
Chi - $97,000
Har - $43,000

WL
Col - $83,000
UVA - $55,000

I know Harvard is TCR if that hail-mary comes through... Assume I get off Columbia and Virginia WL and into Chicago (for the sake of argument). Wife hates Michigan, we're okay with NYC if we must, want to do: next David Stern (Columbia Law alum), federal clerkship, probably fed gov't job, okay with biglaw. Family in Chicago.

[Holly Golightly]

Longest post EVER. Please don't quote in its entirety (small portions okay).



Northwestern v. Georgetown

Goals:
I want to work in international human rights, ideally for an international body, or perhaps an NGO or a governmental body. Location is unimportant, although most of the jobs for this are in NY or DC. Also not opposed to ending up somewhere like The Hague or Geneva.

Total Cost
Note: This is not one of my biggest considerations, since I plan on doing public interest work, but should nonetheless be considered.
• NU: $72,000 x 4 = $288,000
• GULC: $68,000 x 3 = $204,000
Edge: Georgetown

LRAP
Length of time after graduation to qualify:
• NU: Must enter PI immediately.
• GULC: 2 years
Expected contribution at $60k/year
• NU: $7,391/year, or $616/month
• GULC: $0
Qualification after clerkship:
• NU:
• GULC: Yes
Total benefit: Georgetown’s LRAP is considerably better. If I make less than $75k/year, I will be reimbursed for all loan payments made.
Edge: Georgetown

Location
• NU: Very familiar/comfortable with Chicago. Most of my friends and family live in the Chicago area. Know how to find affordable apartments, and which neighborhoods I would like to live in.
• GULC: Loved living in D.C. Perfect location for what I want to do after school.
Very Slight Edge: Georgetown

JD v. JD/LLM
• NU: Would be going for 4 years and getting a JD and an LLM in International Human Rights. I’m honestly not sure if having this would be a huge advantage or not, but one of the program requirements is a semester-long externship at an international organization, which would be awesome and look good on the resume/give me an interesting opportunity for work experience generally not available to law students. I also think it would show my dedication to this field in a way a regular JD wouldn’t.
• GULC: Would be getting a regular JD. Upside: 3 years instead of 4.
Edge: Northwestern (???)

Placement
• NU: High placement in large firms, even in current shitty economy. While this isn’t what I want for myself, I’m going to assume that it is indicative of a decent overall placement rate.
• GULC: Known for good placement in government and DC, though these are slightly negated by its large class size.
Edge: Northwestern

Portability
• NU: Places best in the Midwest, but sent 31% of its 2008 class to the east coast (where most of the jobs I’m interested in would be located). The problem is that I don’t know where on the east coast these people went. I’ve been told that they place better than GULC in NY, but don’t have hard data to back this up.
• GULC: Definitely beats Northwestern for placement in DC. DC location after graduation is not really important to me, but it is where a lot of the jobs are for what I want.
Edge: ???

Clerkships (2009 data)
• NU: 6.8% of class in Article 3 Clerkships
• GULC: 5.6: of class in Article 3 Clerkships
Note: I have been told repeatedly that NU is significantly better than GULC for clerkships. While this may hold true for SCOTUS, in general I’m not seeing that in this data. Am I missing something?
Slight Edge: Northwestern

Class Size
• NU: 250
• GULC: 590
Edge: Northwestern

International Opportunities
• NU: Externship with international organization required as part of LLM. Has Center for International Human Rights within the Bluhm Legal Clinic, and International Team Projects during spring break for 2L and 3Ls.
• GULC: Many semester and summer study abroad opportunities. Human Rights Institute. Huge Center for Transnational Legal Studies.
Both have journals on international law.
Slight Edge: Northwestern (???)

PI Orientation
• NU: Known for being more business oriented, but trying to up its public interest and international reputation.
• GULC: Known for public interest and international law programs.
Edge: Georgetown



What am I missing? Also, even after all this I'm still undecided. I fail.

[big_blue79]

Northwestern just offered me $60k. Kind of a weird offer. Zero for the first year, $30k/year in the second and third years.

This puts them in closer contention with Mich, however Mich will still be fairly cheaper with COL, etc. I'll probably be turning it down. IAFG, Ltk, etc. could use this more than I could.

I just got the exact same offer. It seemed to me it was a funding issue more than anything else, tbh. But it seriously destroys my Excel spreadsheet for determining costs...

[NayBoer]

Dollar amounts are total costs over three years (GI Bill and schollies included, assumed a high CoA and no tuition increases):

NYU - $60.000
Mich - $53,000
NU - $67,000

Awaiting decision:
Chi - $97,000
Har - $43,000

WL
Col - $83,000
UVA - $55,000

I know Harvard is TCR if that hail-mary comes through... Assume I get off Columbia and Virginia WL and into Chicago (for the sake of argument). Wife hates Michigan, we're okay with NYC if we must, want to do: next David Stern (Columbia Law alum), federal clerkship, probably fed gov't job, okay with biglaw. Family in Chicago.

Actually, I'd just follow the latest USNWR on this one (HCCNMVN), except 1) drop Mich to the bottom because of wife, and 2) UVA and NU are somewhat interchangeable choices, depending on preference.

[NayBoer]

Holly, I'm not sure where you got the LRAP numbers. I got $6563 annually at NU, of which the PSFP would pay 50% (and 75% of the unpaid interest). That would be less than $3300, or $275 a month. Maybe I'm misusing the calculator.
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... /lrap.html

I think LLM and externship lean NU, location and money lean GULC, the rest are probably somewhat comparable. There will probably be more people doing your specialty in GULC, and many more organizations in DC. Probably close enough that it's just personal choice.

[09042014]

Holly, I'm not sure where you got the LRAP numbers. I got $6563 annually at NU, of which the PSFP would pay 50% (and 75% of the unpaid interest). That would be less than $3300, or $275 a month. Maybe I'm misusing the calculator.
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... /lrap.html

I think LLM and externship lean NU, location and money lean GULC, the rest are probably somewhat comparable. There will probably be more people doing your specialty in GULC, and many more organizations in DC. Probably close enough that it's just personal choice.

ITE with everyone and their mother who miss big law OCI gunning to PI, I'd take the smaller class size. And if the LLM has an externship as a requirement, I'm sure they work hard to place you. That may be a job opportunity after law school. Also there may be international jobs available in Chicago, with much less competition.

If I were you, I'd try to call or email someone in NU's LLM program and see how graduates of it are faring.

But maybe I'm just to big law biased, a field were NU dominates GULC. Maybe it is different in other fields.

I don't envy your choice.

[danquayle]

Nobody in Ann Arbor actually calls it UM, right? For some reason I usually call it UMich (yoomish). Not sure where I picked that up.

Depends on the context. People say "U of M" most of the time, but you see and hear UM, Umich, M, Mich, all being used.

People definitely say UM. The snobbier people emphasis the "of" in U of M. I haven't heard M or Mich ever used, but I have heard Umich quite a lot, and its what I always said.

But no one ever, ever says "Big Blue."

[SaintClarence27]

Holly, I'm not sure where you got the LRAP numbers. I got $6563 annually at NU, of which the PSFP would pay 50% (and 75% of the unpaid interest). That would be less than $3300, or $275 a month. Maybe I'm misusing the calculator.
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... /lrap.html

I think LLM and externship lean NU, location and money lean GULC, the rest are probably somewhat comparable. There will probably be more people doing your specialty in GULC, and many more organizations in DC. Probably close enough that it's just personal choice.

ITE with everyone and their mother who miss big law OCI gunning to PI, I'd take the smaller class size. And if the LLM has an externship as a requirement, I'm sure they work hard to place you. That may be a job opportunity after law school. Also there may be international jobs available in Chicago, with much less competition.

If I were you, I'd try to call or email someone in NU's LLM program and see how graduates of it are faring.

But maybe I'm just to big law biased, a field were NU dominates GULC. Maybe it is different in other fields.

I don't envy your choice.

I do!

[black celebration]

Fucking confused and one week left to decide. Thanks for the opinions, BP.

Berkeley ($135,000) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

TOTAL COST DIFFERENCE OVER THREE YEARS = approx. $25,000

I live in the Bay Area and love it here. I'd rather not leave, but I was 100% ready to do so for Michigan until Berkeley gave me a scholarship last week. It was my original first choice, but the price difference is still very significant, and I have come to believe that Michigan is just as strong of a school. For life/happiness purposes, though, Boalt would certainly be a smoother transition (plus I love the no letter grades thing). Essentially I'm not *too* worried about the price difference, but it is still a factor.

Other than pursuing a CLERKSHIP, I don't know what the hell I will do after law school -- probably lots of things. I have been an entrepreneur my whole post-UG career and will likely want to work in a variety of fields (legal and otherwise) for the rest of my life. Interested in BigLaw I guess, but only for a few years at most. More interested in gov't/P.I./"all the other stuff".

As far as location, I would like to live/work abroad for some time, but ultimately I see myself in any of the following: Pacific Northwest, NorCal, Southeast. Possibly will want to move around, though. I want flexibility. Michigan champions the flexibility of its degree, but is there really going to be a difference between the two schools in terms of job prospects?

Oh, and I do not like Ann Arbor very much. I hate cold weather but was ready to do another 3 years in icy hell (I've lived extensively in the Northeast before).

[Holly Golightly]

The organizations on the list for the externship are so freaking cool:

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/humanri ... ships.html

[Nom Sawyer]

Fucking confused and one week left to decide. Thanks for the opinions, BP.

Berkeley ($135,000) vs. Michigan (Darrow)

TOTAL COST DIFFERENCE OVER THREE YEARS = approx. $25,000

I live in the Bay Area and love it here. I'd rather not leave, but I was 100% ready to do so for Michigan until Berkeley gave me a scholarship last week. It was my original first choice, but the price difference is still very significant, and I have come to believe that Michigan is just as strong of a school. For life/happiness purposes, though, Boalt would certainly be a smoother transition (plus I love the no letter grades thing). Essentially I'm not *too* worried about the price difference, but it is still a factor.

Other than pursuing a CLERKSHIP, I don't know what the hell I will do after law school -- probably lots of things. I have been an entrepreneur my whole post-UG career and will likely want to work in a variety of fields (legal and otherwise) for the rest of my life. Interested in BigLaw I guess, but only for a few years at most. More interested in gov't/P.I./"all the other stuff".

As far as location, I would like to live/work abroad for some time, but ultimately I see myself in any of the following: Pacific Northwest, NorCal, Southeast. Possibly will want to move around, though. I want flexibility. Michigan champions the flexibility of its degree, but is there really going to be a difference between the two schools in terms of job prospects?

Oh, and I do not like Ann Arbor very much. I hate cold weather but was ready to do another 3 years in icy hell (I've lived extensively in the Northeast before).

Cost difference is not that substantial, and it sounds like you'd be a lot happier at Berkeley.

Go to Berkeley and enjoy!