How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

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hwstewart
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How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby hwstewart » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:40 am

.
Last edited by hwstewart on Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:36 am, edited 5 times in total.

oneforship
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby oneforship » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:42 am

GO GATORS

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UFMatt
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby UFMatt » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:47 am

oneforship wrote:GO GATORS


:lol:

Anyone else suspect that Alabama may have sent in their employment % after the deadline?

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hwstewart
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby hwstewart » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:49 am

They sent the employment @ graduation data in the same time as the rest. If they had sent it late, all values would have been "N/A"

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UFMatt
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby UFMatt » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:50 am

hwstewart wrote:They sent the employment @ graduation data in the same time as the rest. If they had sent it late, all values would have been "N/A"


In that case, it is truly a bizarre oversight by USNWR.

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hwstewart
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby hwstewart » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:53 am

UFMatt wrote:
hwstewart wrote:They sent the employment @ graduation data in the same time as the rest. If they had sent it late, all values would have been "N/A"


In that case, it is truly a bizarre oversight by USNWR.


That's what I'm saying! Its completely crazy. Alabama was deciding yesterday if they were going to take USNWR to court. I for one wish they would.

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kittenmittons
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby kittenmittons » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:54 am

Lawl @ there being an appreciable difference between N/A and the actual numbers.

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TTH
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby TTH » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:57 am

kittenmittons wrote:Lawl @ there being an appreciable difference between N/A and the actual numbers.


This. ROLL TIDE, BABY!

Anyone wanna bet Bob Morse went to UT?

oneforship
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby oneforship » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:04 am

TipTravHoot wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:Lawl @ there being an appreciable difference between N/A and the actual numbers.


This. ROLL TIDE, BABY!

Anyone wanna bet Bob Morse went to UT?


wtf does Texas have to do with this?

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MC Southstar
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby MC Southstar » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:05 am

Alabama should be exterminated, after Mississippi.

hellokitty
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby hellokitty » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:07 am

MC Southstar wrote:Alabama should be exterminated, after Mississippi.


+1,000,000, and in that order too.

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underachiever
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby underachiever » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:09 am

oneforship wrote:
TipTravHoot wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:Lawl @ there being an appreciable difference between N/A and the actual numbers.


This. ROLL TIDE, BABY!

Anyone wanna bet Bob Morse went to UT?


wtf does Texas have to do with this?


They lost to Alabama in the FBS (College Football, formerly D-1) BCS National Championship game this year

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najumobi
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby najumobi » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:12 am

that sucks....can anything feasibly be done though?

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Unitas
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby Unitas » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:13 am

najumobi wrote:that sucks....can anything feasibly be done though?


It is a school for (and made up of) lawyers. Something can be done; will it though?

oneforship
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby oneforship » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:13 am

underachiever wrote:
oneforship wrote:
TipTravHoot wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:Lawl @ there being an appreciable difference between N/A and the actual numbers.


This. ROLL TIDE, BABY!

Anyone wanna bet Bob Morse went to UT?


wtf does Texas have to do with this?


They lost to Alabama in the FBS (College Football, formerly D-1) BCS National Championship game this year


weird. I hadn't heard.

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kittenmittons
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby kittenmittons » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:17 am

Unitas wrote:
najumobi wrote:that sucks....can anything feasibly be done though?

It is a school for (and made up of) lawyers. Something can be done; will it though?

*abuses artistic license*

*visits wal-mart to look at BCS trophy*

lawschoolstudent85
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby lawschoolstudent85 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:20 am

b
Last edited by lawschoolstudent85 on Wed May 12, 2010 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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T14_Scholly
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby T14_Scholly » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:25 am

OP admits that fluctuations in the rankings are meaningless, but then goes on to say that Alabama is "undervalued in the rankings this year." Just stick to the admission you made buddy, because it's true. Every moron on this site who is obsessed with ranking changes always tries to preface his/her obsession with an admission that the rankings don't matter much. Sorry, but your momentary willingness to admit as much doesn't excuse your irrationality. Sorry that you can't brag to your friends and family that you go to a top 30 school anymore. Guess you will just have to find another source of self-worth.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby OperaSoprano » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:45 am

hwstewart wrote:
UFMatt wrote:
hwstewart wrote:They sent the employment @ graduation data in the same time as the rest. If they had sent it late, all values would have been "N/A"


In that case, it is truly a bizarre oversight by USNWR.


That's what I'm saying! Its completely crazy. Alabama was deciding yesterday if they were going to take USNWR to court. I for one wish they would.


Someone needs to. It's not an issue of getting self worth from where OP's school is ranked. It won't effect the students' employment prospects, but future applicants make choices about where to go based on numbers that are, in large part, arbitrary. No one monitors' schools response rate for data when they do turn it in, so honest schools (which it sounds like Alabama was, if that number was based on every graduating 3L) get screwed even if their numbers are not left out. There is an enormous incentive to game the rankings; deans have been fired if their schools drop. When employment numbers are reported as N/A, as happened here, the school gets penalized by the formula the magazine uses. If USNews had any integrity at all, it would realized what a monster it has loosed.

Think about it. Isn't it kind of crazy that so many people feel compelled to give great weight to a list of numbers in a magazine when selecting a school? Presumably we ought to care about a school's quality of education, quality of life, cost v. availability of student aid, and the nature and availability of jobs for graduates. Dental students are able to choose their schools without rankings. It's worth thinking about why the law school community cares so much. I hope Alabama sues, if only for the message it will send. Schools should not find themselves subservient to a profit seeking magazine company.

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annapavlova
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby annapavlova » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:52 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
hwstewart wrote:
UFMatt wrote:
hwstewart wrote:They sent the employment @ graduation data in the same time as the rest. If they had sent it late, all values would have been "N/A"


In that case, it is truly a bizarre oversight by USNWR.


That's what I'm saying! Its completely crazy. Alabama was deciding yesterday if they were going to take USNWR to court. I for one wish they would.


Someone needs to. It's not an issue of getting self worth from where OP's school is ranked. It won't effect the students' employment prospects, but future applicants make choices about where to go based on numbers that are, in large part, arbitrary. No one monitors' schools response rate for data when they do turn it in, so honest schools (which it sounds like Alabama was, if that number was based on every graduating 3L) get screwed even if their numbers are not left out. There is an enormous incentive to game the rankings; deans have been fired if their schools drop. When employment numbers are reported as N/A, as happened here, the school gets penalized by the formula the magazine uses. If USNews had any integrity at all, it would realized what a monster it has loosed.

Think about it. Isn't it kind of crazy that so many people feel compelled to give great weight to a list of numbers in a magazine when selecting a school? Presumably we ought to care about a school's quality of education, quality of life, cost v. availability of student aid, and the nature and availability of jobs for graduates. Dental students are able to choose their schools without rankings. It's worth thinking about why the law school community cares so much. I hope Alabama sues, if only for the message it will send. Schools should not find themselves subservient to a profit seeking magazine company.


I am guilty of this. I was going to take the phat scholly at a school that was just as the bottom of the T2 until it fell out of the rankings last year.

However, kharma has not been unkind regardless of my indiscretion: I love my school, it's way better here in terms of quality of life and professors, and the cost of living is wayyyy cheaper where I went. Arguably, it's also a more beautiful landscape. I'm paying a little more, but I think it's worth it.

So it's not always the worst choice! Though in a general sense, I would not recommend letting this affect your decision on where to attend. The school I dissed ended up back in the T2 ranked higher than they were before.
Oh well.

In sum: even though I am a true hypocrite, I agree with Opera.

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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:55 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
hwstewart wrote:
UFMatt wrote:
hwstewart wrote:They sent the employment @ graduation data in the same time as the rest. If they had sent it late, all values would have been "N/A"


In that case, it is truly a bizarre oversight by USNWR.


That's what I'm saying! Its completely crazy. Alabama was deciding yesterday if they were going to take USNWR to court. I for one wish they would.


Someone needs to. It's not an issue of getting self worth from where OP's school is ranked. It won't effect the students' employment prospects, but future applicants make choices about where to go based on numbers that are, in large part, arbitrary. No one monitors' schools response rate for data when they do turn it in, so honest schools (which it sounds like Alabama was, if that number was based on every graduating 3L) get screwed even if their numbers are not left out. There is an enormous incentive to game the rankings; deans have been fired if their schools drop. When employment numbers are reported as N/A, as happened here, the school gets penalized by the formula the magazine uses. If USNews had any integrity at all, it would realized what a monster it has loosed.

Think about it. Isn't it kind of crazy that so many people feel compelled to give great weight to a list of numbers in a magazine when selecting a school? Presumably we ought to care about a school's quality of education, quality of life, cost v. availability of student aid, and the nature and availability of jobs for graduates. Dental students are able to choose their schools without rankings. It's worth thinking about why the law school community cares so much. I hope Alabama sues, if only for the message it will send. Schools should not find themselves subservient to a profit seeking magazine company.


The difference between dental schools and lawl schools (my sister just finished dental skoo) is that lawyers are much less in demand.

Dental schools don't need rankings because where ever you go, if you graduate, youll get a job.

In this economy, its more like if you graduate in top 90% you;ll get a job within 9 months, and a good one.

Law schools are not the same.

If there were no rankings, and someone picked University of Richmond over UVa, they would be seriously hurting thier legal career.

Unlike dental school, the law school you go to MATTERS. So prospective students need to know relatively how good a school is.

I think rankings are important in gauging where a school you applied to lies. However, I think picking one school over another based soley on rankings is a horrible choice.

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thickfreakness
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby thickfreakness » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:58 am

They should sue US News in a Birmingham court. It would help the legal job market a little bit, at least.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby OperaSoprano » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:01 am

annapavlova wrote:I am guilty of this. I was going to take the phat scholly at a school that was just as the bottom of the T2 until it fell out of the rankings last year.

However, kharma has not been unkind regardless of my indiscretion: I love my school, it's way better here in terms of quality of life and professors, and the cost of living is wayyyy cheaper where I went. Arguably, it's also a more beautiful landscape. I'm paying a little more, but I think it's worth it.

So it's not always the worst choice! Though in a general sense, I would not recommend letting this affect your decision on where to attend. The school I dissed ended up back in the T2 ranked higher than they were before.
Oh well.

In sum: even though I am a true hypocrite, I agree with Opera.


You're not a hypocrite, Anna. Remember what I did last year? I was furious then, and had to be cajoled and threatened by my future classmate via BBM before reporting the new numbers, once I had the magazine, but I did it. If you are a hypocrite, we all are.

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hwstewart
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby hwstewart » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:06 am

T14_Scholly wrote:OP admits that fluctuations in the rankings are meaningless, but then goes on to say that Alabama is "undervalued in the rankings this year." Just stick to the admission you made buddy, because it's true. Every moron on this site who is obsessed with ranking changes always tries to preface his/her obsession with an admission that the rankings don't matter much. Sorry, but your momentary willingness to admit as much doesn't excuse your irrationality. Sorry that you can't brag to your friends and family that you go to a top 30 school anymore. Guess you will just have to find another source of self-worth.


A. I have never used the rankings as a source of self-worth. I chose Alabama for very deliberate reasons, above schools more highly ranked. If I wanted to spout off to my family and friends about rankings I would've gone to Vandy. Btw the irony is pretty thick with that comment coming from someone with your avatar.

B. I would acknowledge the inconsistency if I hadn't laid a few caveats in what I said. I said, "to a certain point fluctuations outside the T-14 are pretty irrelevant." I didn't say meaningless. I also never said that the rankings don't matter much, unfortunately they do. I said fluctuations, and I implied minor horse race ones at that. I'm not sitting here complaining about dropping 2 places here. General trends in rank I believe are important. An 8 point drop (especially unwarranted) is pretty significant and could make a serious impact on who will apply/consider bama next cycle and yes, that matters to me. As an applicant, if you pay attention to the general trends in the rankings (as a proxy for several qualitative/quantitative factors) and see that the year before experienced a precipitous drop, that would send up a red flag. I just feel its unfortunate that will occur for basically an error of data management on behalf of USNWR.

C. I don't know why you're wanting to make this personal, saying I'm a moron and base self-esteem on rankings. I think this is unfortunate for everyone because it illuminates how unprofessional the whole system is conducted and how easily things that get misconstrued to future applicants. I knew there was going to be people who would jump on the band wagon slandering Alabama Law here, but I at least expected a small tip of the hat to the fact that this situation is wrong. Thanks OperaSoprano and others.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: How Alabama got SCREWED by USNWR in 2010

Postby OperaSoprano » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:09 am

Nicholasnickynic wrote:The difference between dental schools and lawl schools (my sister just finished dental skoo) is that lawyers are much less in demand.

Dental schools don't need rankings because where ever you go, if you graduate, youll get a job.

In this economy, its more like if you graduate in top 90% you;ll get a job within 9 months, and a good one.

Law schools are not the same.

If there were no rankings, and someone picked University of Richmond over UVa, they would be seriously hurting thier legal career.

Unlike dental school, the law school you go to MATTERS. So prospective students need to know relatively how good a school is.

I think rankings are important in gauging where a school you applied to lies. However, I think picking one school over another based soley on rankings is a horrible choice.


I agree with you about the market for dentists. However, USNews did not decide not to rank dental schools because rankings are unneeded. The ADA stood up to the magazine and would not let member schools be ranked. (At least, this is my general understanding of what happened; if someone knows more details they are free to amend.) The magazine ranks medical schools, and doctors are also still in demand, especially in rural areas.

Even without rankings, however, no one with a functioning mind would pick University of Richmond over UVA. Rankings are often used as a stand in for independent research, and this is seriously troubling. It wouldn't take that much footwork to figure out that UVA students have much better employment outcomes than Richmond students. This isn't to disparage Richmond, any more than I would disparage my own school if I noted that Columbia places better than we do. I would not be so fundamentally opposed to rankings if USNews didn't have a monopoly on (reputable) rankings, and a huge degree of influence over applicants. When there is only one list that matters, that list is ripe for gaming. This is why I would love to see Alabama take the magazine down a peg.




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