UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
General Tso
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby General Tso » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:53 pm

I'm going to go on a limb here and make a prediction. In the words of El Presidente: "History will absolve me."

In the near future, I fully expect that there will be highly authoritative sources making much the same argument as I have here.

User avatar
A'nold
Posts: 3622
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:07 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby A'nold » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:09 pm

Great Satchmo wrote:
swheat wrote:So what would be your response if Davis reported its real rate of 78% (2006 figure), Hastings claimed 97%, and the roles were reversed? How would you feel if you were a Red Sox fan and your team was eliminated from the playoffs because the umpire let A-Rod get away with slapping the ball from Arroyo's glove? Of course people will say, 'there's always next year' for the Sox. But in this law school game, there are real consequences for people.

And I will be just as quick to piss in the soup of Duke, Arizona State, and Chapman people.




Hastings is still going to have the edge for work in San Francisco since it is located right there, and has all of the connections. Even if Davis is higher ranked, I HIGHLY doubt that any firm sees them as being on a higher level than Hastings.


Now, but what about 5-10 years from now when Davis is ranked 23rd and Hastings is ranked 48th?

Stuff like that is easy to say when you do not go to a school that by all accounts should be equal to a VERY similar rival school in the same region and is historically WAY more prestigeous than the other. You would crap if that ever happened to you. I would be very worried if I was a Hastings, U of A, or W&L student. The USNWR got it wrong. It DOES matter, especially long-term. There are many examples of schools that used to be the best in a region. Take Willamette University for example. It used to own the Oregon market. Now it is a festering TTT that people avoid like the plague. An even better example would be the University of Oregon compared to L&C. There is NO WAY L&C is a better school than U of O, but as the years go on L&C is picking up (unwarranted?) steam and U of O is getting the shaft. People are actually starting to believe that there is a hierarchy in OR: L&C > U of O > Willamette. Sure, people "in the know" know that U of O should and did have more prestige, even if only by a little but slowly but surely the old traditional view will fade away as L&C gets more USNWR cred. and U of O slips into the t3 or the very bottom of the t2.

Rankings do matter, especially long term. Are you honestly trying to tell me that Hastings would still be preferred over Davis if Hastings b/c of things like "location and local ties" if it dropped to #70 and Davis was still a top 30? That may be a drastic illustration, but 14 freaking points is definitely cause for concern, especially if you are a freaking Hastings student. Cut swheat some slack guys.


Edit: People underestimate the power of USNWR and this website, to be honest. There are already threads popping up about W&L, Hastings vs. Davis, and Arizona State vs. Arizona. Look at how fast things catch on. There is no such thing as T, TT, or TTTT but now everyone here thinks that is how you distinguish b/w tiers. Desert Fox started his whole t13 thing and now t12 and it is catching on like wildfire. New people to this site are now using t12 b/c they think that is how it really is. I wouldn't be surprised if 3 years from now there is no such phrase as the "t14" anymore. Yes, these may be funny examples, but you can't just stick your head in the sand and claim that Hasting's traditional rep. will be there forever just b/c it is Hastings.

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby Great Satchmo » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:15 pm

A'nold wrote:
Great Satchmo wrote:
swheat wrote:So what would be your response if Davis reported its real rate of 78% (2006 figure), Hastings claimed 97%, and the roles were reversed? How would you feel if you were a Red Sox fan and your team was eliminated from the playoffs because the umpire let A-Rod get away with slapping the ball from Arroyo's glove? Of course people will say, 'there's always next year' for the Sox. But in this law school game, there are real consequences for people.

And I will be just as quick to piss in the soup of Duke, Arizona State, and Chapman people.




Hastings is still going to have the edge for work in San Francisco since it is located right there, and has all of the connections. Even if Davis is higher ranked, I HIGHLY doubt that any firm sees them as being on a higher level than Hastings.


Now, but what about 5-10 years from now when Davis is ranked 23rd and Hastings is ranked 48th?

Stuff like that is easy to say when you do not go to a school that by all accounts should be equal to a VERY similar rival school in the same region and is historically WAY more prestigeous than the other. You would crap if that ever happened to you. I would be very worried if I was a Hastings, U of A, or W&L student. The USNWR got it wrong. It DOES matter, especially long-term. There are many examples of schools that used to be the best in a region. Take Willamette University for example. It used to own the Oregon market. Now it is a festering TTT that people avoid like the plague. An even better example would be the University of Oregon compared to L&C. There is NO WAY L&C is a better school than U of O, but as the years go on L&C is picking up (unwarranted?) steam and U of O is getting the shaft. People are actually starting to believe that there is a hierarchy in OR: L&C > U of O > Willamette. Sure, people "in the know" know that U of O should and did have more prestige, even if only by a little but slowly but surely the old traditional view will fade away as L&C gets more USNWR cred. and U of O slips into the t3 or the very bottom of the t2.

Rankings do matter, especially long term. Are you honestly trying to tell me that Hastings would still be preferred over Davis if Hastings b/c of things like "location and local ties" if it dropped to #70 and Davis was still a top 30? That may be a drastic illustration, but 14 freaking points is definitely cause for concern, especially if you are a freaking Hastings student. Cut swheat some slack guys.


Edit: People underestimate the power of USNWR and this website, to be honest. There are already threads popping up about W&L, Hastings vs. Davis, and Arizona State vs. Arizona. Look at how fast things catch on. There is no such thing as T, TT, or TTTT but now everyone here thinks that is how you distinguish b/w tiers. Desert Fox started his whole t13 thing and now t12 and it is catching on like wildfire. New people to this site are now using t12 b/c they think that is how it really is. I wouldn't be surprised if 3 years from now there is no such phrase as the "t14" anymore. Yes, these may be funny examples, but you can't just stick your head in the sand and claim that Hasting's traditional rep. will be there forever just b/c it is Hastings.


a) This is under the assumption that Davis keeps climbing, and Hastings falls - which who knows what will happen over a few year period of time

b) Who cares if people on this board are saying t12, we are a community mostly filled of pre-law students with some law students. We scrutinize things that students and graduates scoff at.

User avatar
20160810
Posts: 19648
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:18 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby 20160810 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:27 pm

A'nold wrote:
Great Satchmo wrote:
swheat wrote:So what would be your response if Davis reported its real rate of 78% (2006 figure), Hastings claimed 97%, and the roles were reversed? How would you feel if you were a Red Sox fan and your team was eliminated from the playoffs because the umpire let A-Rod get away with slapping the ball from Arroyo's glove? Of course people will say, 'there's always next year' for the Sox. But in this law school game, there are real consequences for people.

And I will be just as quick to piss in the soup of Duke, Arizona State, and Chapman people.




Hastings is still going to have the edge for work in San Francisco since it is located right there, and has all of the connections. Even if Davis is higher ranked, I HIGHLY doubt that any firm sees them as being on a higher level than Hastings.


Now, but what about 5-10 years from now when Davis is ranked 23rd and Hastings is ranked 48th?

Stuff like that is easy to say when you do not go to a school that by all accounts should be equal to a VERY similar rival school in the same region and is historically WAY more prestigeous than the other. You would crap if that ever happened to you. I would be very worried if I was a Hastings, U of A, or W&L student. The USNWR got it wrong. It DOES matter, especially long-term. There are many examples of schools that used to be the best in a region. Take Willamette University for example. It used to own the Oregon market. Now it is a festering TTT that people avoid like the plague. An even better example would be the University of Oregon compared to L&C. There is NO WAY L&C is a better school than U of O, but as the years go on L&C is picking up (unwarranted?) steam and U of O is getting the shaft. People are actually starting to believe that there is a hierarchy in OR: L&C > U of O > Willamette. Sure, people "in the know" know that U of O should and did have more prestige, even if only by a little but slowly but surely the old traditional view will fade away as L&C gets more USNWR cred. and U of O slips into the t3 or the very bottom of the t2.

Rankings do matter, especially long term. Are you honestly trying to tell me that Hastings would still be preferred over Davis if Hastings b/c of things like "location and local ties" if it dropped to #70 and Davis was still a top 30? That may be a drastic illustration, but 14 freaking points is definitely cause for concern, especially if you are a freaking Hastings student. Cut swheat some slack guys.


Edit: People underestimate the power of USNWR and this website, to be honest. There are already threads popping up about W&L, Hastings vs. Davis, and Arizona State vs. Arizona. Look at how fast things catch on. There is no such thing as T, TT, or TTTT but now everyone here thinks that is how you distinguish b/w tiers. Desert Fox started his whole t13 thing and now t12 and it is catching on like wildfire. New people to this site are now using t12 b/c they think that is how it really is. I wouldn't be surprised if 3 years from now there is no such phrase as the "t14" anymore. Yes, these may be funny examples, but you can't just stick your head in the sand and claim that Hasting's traditional rep. will be there forever just b/c it is Hastings.


I feel like there are an awful lot of assumptions going on in this post. If "Everyone knows" that school X is better than School Y, but that is not reflected in USNews rankings, then clearly the belief in School X's superiority is not as widespread as you're suggesting. Sure, some things are pretty abberational (I think ASU leapfrogging U of A is a pretty good example of that), but that's why employers aren't going to change their hiring practices overnight because of one year's USNews fluctuation. I can pretty much guarantee that where it matters, UCD and UCH are still basically the same.

If 10 years from now UCD is still ranked in the 20s and UCH has become a T2, that more than likely will reflect that UCD has become the superior law school. But is that likely to happen? Probably not. My guess is that they'll stay pretty closely ranked (over the past 10 years UCD has averaged a rank something like 2.5 spots ahead of UCH - in other words the present gap is large by historical standards and likely to contract unless the admissions people at Hastings are really doing something wrong).

Additionally, all this doom and gloom would be a lot more convincing if Hastings' ranking had actually dropped. With schools like UofA and W&L, they have that gripe. Hastings doesn't, it just doesn't enjoy quite as close a spot to a supposed rival school. But even then, it's not a terribly big deal: For one thing, there are so many schools tied at 28 and 34 that UCH is really only a couple of raw score points behind UCD. This situation isn't really reflective of a chasmic gap in quality between the two schools; rather quite the opposite, it reflects the fact that there are about 10 law schools out there (UC's D and H included) that more or less identical in quality.

In conclusion: Chill. Please. Chill. I will be astonished if this year's USNews ranking has any impact on the hiring stats of Davis vs. Hastings students (though in my secret evil heart, I rather hope that it does, because I need a job). I also doubt that the gap between the two schools will continue to grow unless something pretty remarkable happens.

Now if you'll all excuse me, I need to get back to studying for finals, which are pretty hard when you attend the 28th best law school in the United States. 8)

eth3n
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:36 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby eth3n » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:31 pm

SoftBoiledLife wrote:Now if you'll all excuse me, I need to get back to studying for finals, which are pretty hard when you attend the 28th best law school in the United States. 8)


You know I wasn't taking them too seriously until you mentioned that! It sure is hard being t30! T_T

User avatar
20160810
Posts: 19648
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:18 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby 20160810 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:36 pm

eth3n wrote:
SoftBoiledLife wrote:Now if you'll all excuse me, I need to get back to studying for finals, which are pretty hard when you attend the 28th best law school in the United States. 8)


You know I wasn't taking them too seriously until you mentioned that! It sure is hard being t30! T_T


I have gone from drinking coffee to just snorting lines of coffee grounds. I'll be freebasing it by next week.

User avatar
mnolen
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:19 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby mnolen » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:47 pm

swheat, I can understand why you're pissed, but it seems like you've been pretty pissed about attending Hastings all year. I'm also not thrilled about the drop in the rankings, but I don't think it's really going to be a big deal in the grand scheme of things. It won't affect the jobs that are available to us in any practical way. And furthermore, I'm fairly sure it will even out in time. So why all the drama? It seems like you just don't like Hastings and you're happy to have something to complain about. Sorry if I'm being rude, but I don't want people to think that all of us at Hastings are dissatisfied with the school.

User avatar
A'nold
Posts: 3622
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:07 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby A'nold » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:51 pm

SoftBoiledLife wrote:
A'nold wrote:
Great Satchmo wrote:



Hastings is still going to have the edge for work in San Francisco since it is located right there, and has all of the connections. Even if Davis is higher ranked, I HIGHLY doubt that any firm sees them as being on a higher level than Hastings.


Now, but what about 5-10 years from now when Davis is ranked 23rd and Hastings is ranked 48th?

Stuff like that is easy to say when you do not go to a school that by all accounts should be equal to a VERY similar rival school in the same region and is historically WAY more prestigeous than the other. You would crap if that ever happened to you. I would be very worried if I was a Hastings, U of A, or W&L student. The USNWR got it wrong. It DOES matter, especially long-term. There are many examples of schools that used to be the best in a region. Take Willamette University for example. It used to own the Oregon market. Now it is a festering TTT that people avoid like the plague. An even better example would be the University of Oregon compared to L&C. There is NO WAY L&C is a better school than U of O, but as the years go on L&C is picking up (unwarranted?) steam and U of O is getting the shaft. People are actually starting to believe that there is a hierarchy in OR: L&C > U of O > Willamette. Sure, people "in the know" know that U of O should and did have more prestige, even if only by a little but slowly but surely the old traditional view will fade away as L&C gets more USNWR cred. and U of O slips into the t3 or the very bottom of the t2.

Rankings do matter, especially long term. Are you honestly trying to tell me that Hastings would still be preferred over Davis if Hastings b/c of things like "location and local ties" if it dropped to #70 and Davis was still a top 30? That may be a drastic illustration, but 14 freaking points is definitely cause for concern, especially if you are a freaking Hastings student. Cut swheat some slack guys.


Edit: People underestimate the power of USNWR and this website, to be honest. There are already threads popping up about W&L, Hastings vs. Davis, and Arizona State vs. Arizona. Look at how fast things catch on. There is no such thing as T, TT, or TTTT but now everyone here thinks that is how you distinguish b/w tiers. Desert Fox started his whole t13 thing and now t12 and it is catching on like wildfire. New people to this site are now using t12 b/c they think that is how it really is. I wouldn't be surprised if 3 years from now there is no such phrase as the "t14" anymore. Yes, these may be funny examples, but you can't just stick your head in the sand and claim that Hasting's traditional rep. will be there forever just b/c it is Hastings.


I feel like there are an awful lot of assumptions going on in this post. If "Everyone knows" that school X is better than School Y, but that is not reflected in USNews rankings, then clearly the belief in School X's superiority is not as widespread as you're suggesting. Sure, some things are pretty abberational (I think ASU leapfrogging U of A is a pretty good example of that), but that's why employers aren't going to change their hiring practices overnight because of one year's USNews fluctuation. I can pretty much guarantee that where it matters, UCD and UCH are still basically the same.

If 10 years from now UCD is still ranked in the 20s and UCH has become a T2, that more than likely will reflect that UCD has become the superior law school. But is that likely to happen? Probably not. My guess is that they'll stay pretty closely ranked (over the past 10 years UCD has averaged a rank something like 2.5 spots ahead of UCH - in other words the present gap is large by historical standards and likely to contract unless the admissions people at Hastings are really doing something wrong).

Additionally, all this doom and gloom would be a lot more convincing if Hastings' ranking had actually dropped. With schools like UofA and W&L, they have that gripe. Hastings doesn't, it just doesn't enjoy quite as close a spot to a supposed rival school. But even then, it's not a terribly big deal: For one thing, there are so many schools tied at 28 and 34 that UCH is really only a couple of raw score points behind UCD. This situation isn't really reflective of a chasmic gap in quality between the two schools; rather quite the opposite, it reflects the fact that there are about 10 law schools out there (UC's D and H included) that more or less identical in quality.

In conclusion: Chill. Please. Chill. I will be astonished if this year's USNews ranking has any impact on the hiring stats of Davis vs. Hastings students (though in my secret evil heart, I rather hope that it does, because I need a job). I also doubt that the gap between the two schools will continue to grow unless something pretty remarkable happens.

Now if you'll all excuse me, I need to get back to studying for finals, which are pretty hard when you attend the 28th best law school in the United States. 8)


Lol, like I said earlier, you are living this t28 thing very awesomely! :)

You made some very good points. I'm just a little concerned with USNWR overall I guess. This whole IUB jumping into the 22nd spot last year, W&L's unexplainable collapse, USNWR's continued punishment of UCH, and ESPECIALLY this whole bizarre ASU thing has me a little uncomfortable. With such volatility, there is no way these rankings should wield so much power over our futures. Once again, I know it is a little over dramatic to scrutinize this UCH/UCD thing so much (note that I really don't have a stake in this) but if USNWR keeps crapping on schools like UCH, Tulane, W&L, etc. people will start forming new opinions of these schools. For example, because of its 3 year plunge, I highly doubt that W&L will ever see the t25 again, which is sad considering nothing has really changed with the school and (no offense to anyone) UIUC and IUB and other schools are taking its spot, which just seems freaking weird and against common sense.

Sorry to keep pumping out these examples, but it's like the whole BC/BU situation. If USNWR keeps acting like BU is a superior school by ranking one as a t20ish school and the other as barely a t30, people are going to, and as seen by the admissions part of this site, start believing it and it will be a self-fulfilling kind of prophecy situation.


Edit: Oh yeah, this means that if I have to choose b/w the two schools as a safety for transferring that I should 100% pick UCD, right? :wink:
Last edited by A'nold on Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
General Tso
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby General Tso » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:52 pm

Hastings Dean wrote:Dear students:

Spring brings a sense of renewal save in one respect – the US News law school rankings. UN News officially released its rankings today. This year Hastings is ranked 42nd overall (tied with several other schools) and we are ranked 19th among public law schools. Last year Hastings was ranked 39th overall. Our reputational rankings this year show that we are ranked 31st by academics and 25th by judges and practitioners.

For me, it is frustrating to see this ranking. From my student days at Hastings to today, I have seen a steady improvement in our operation. Through this whole time Hastings’ US News ranking has fluctuated wildly, falling at one point out of the top 50 law schools. We are a great school. I know that we have a fabulous faculty, an accomplished student body, a hard-working staff, a first-rate facility (soon to be improved with a gift of $1 million to renovate the Moot Court center), and programs that are the envy of many law school deans. I take pains to mention that there are other law school rankings extant – rankings that recognize Hastings’ many strengths and rank us much higher. Still, US News dominates the genre.

Chancellor and Dean-designate Frank Wu has already announced that he will create a US News Task Force as part of his transition plan. Nonetheless he and I, in the short time I have left as Acting Chancellor and Dean, are committed to running Hastings in a way that makes sense and that provides our students the best possible legal education we can impart. We are mindful of the rankings but we are also mindful that the school cannot be operated in such a way as to be tailored to any one ranking system. We want to secure rankings that genuinely reflect the quality of the legal education we offer, while at the same time ensuring that the focus remains on actual quality, rather than simply scoring high on US News indicators.

Best, Leo Martinez


Translation: "Hastings ain't worried. Business will continue as usual."

User avatar
A'nold
Posts: 3622
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:07 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby A'nold » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:00 pm

swheat wrote:
Hastings Dean wrote:Dear students:

Spring brings a sense of renewal save in one respect – the US News law school rankings. UN News officially released its rankings today. This year Hastings is ranked 42nd overall (tied with several other schools) and we are ranked 19th among public law schools. Last year Hastings was ranked 39th overall. Our reputational rankings this year show that we are ranked 31st by academics and 25th by judges and practitioners.

For me, it is frustrating to see this ranking. From my student days at Hastings to today, I have seen a steady improvement in our operation. Through this whole time Hastings’ US News ranking has fluctuated wildly, falling at one point out of the top 50 law schools. We are a great school. I know that we have a fabulous faculty, an accomplished student body, a hard-working staff, a first-rate facility (soon to be improved with a gift of $1 million to renovate the Moot Court center), and programs that are the envy of many law school deans. I take pains to mention that there are other law school rankings extant – rankings that recognize Hastings’ many strengths and rank us much higher. Still, US News dominates the genre.

Chancellor and Dean-designate Frank Wu has already announced that he will create a US News Task Force as part of his transition plan. Nonetheless he and I, in the short time I have left as Acting Chancellor and Dean, are committed to running Hastings in a way that makes sense and that provides our students the best possible legal education we can impart. We are mindful of the rankings but we are also mindful that the school cannot be operated in such a way as to be tailored to any one ranking system. We want to secure rankings that genuinely reflect the quality of the legal education we offer, while at the same time ensuring that the focus remains on actual quality, rather than simply scoring high on US News indicators.

Best, Leo Martinez


Translation: "Hastings ain't worried. Business will continue as usual."


I actually liked this message. He admitted that being ranked 42nd is frustrating, as it should be. Like I said, I have no reason to defend Hastings other than what I have seen in my near 4 years of law school research. Hastings should be a t30 school (not just b/c Davis is there, lol).

User avatar
drdolittle
Posts: 628
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:15 am

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby drdolittle » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:05 pm

swheat wrote:
Hastings Dean wrote:Dear students:

Spring brings a sense of renewal save in one respect – the US News law school rankings. UN News officially released its rankings today. This year Hastings is ranked 42nd overall (tied with several other schools) and we are ranked 19th among public law schools. Last year Hastings was ranked 39th overall. Our reputational rankings this year show that we are ranked 31st by academics and 25th by judges and practitioners.

For me, it is frustrating to see this ranking. From my student days at Hastings to today, I have seen a steady improvement in our operation. Through this whole time Hastings’ US News ranking has fluctuated wildly, falling at one point out of the top 50 law schools. We are a great school. I know that we have a fabulous faculty, an accomplished student body, a hard-working staff, a first-rate facility (soon to be improved with a gift of $1 million to renovate the Moot Court center), and programs that are the envy of many law school deans. I take pains to mention that there are other law school rankings extant – rankings that recognize Hastings’ many strengths and rank us much higher. Still, US News dominates the genre.

Chancellor and Dean-designate Frank Wu has already announced that he will create a US News Task Force as part of his transition plan. Nonetheless he and I, in the short time I have left as Acting Chancellor and Dean, are committed to running Hastings in a way that makes sense and that provides our students the best possible legal education we can impart. We are mindful of the rankings but we are also mindful that the school cannot be operated in such a way as to be tailored to any one ranking system. We want to secure rankings that genuinely reflect the quality of the legal education we offer, while at the same time ensuring that the focus remains on actual quality, rather than simply scoring high on US News indicators.

Best, Leo Martinez


Translation: "Hastings ain't worried. Business will continue as usual."


Thanks for posting this, swheat. I'm not sure what else Dean Leo could have written under the circumstances.

User avatar
danquayle
Posts: 1108
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:12 am

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby danquayle » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:15 pm

SoftBoiledLife wrote:I'm unclear on why there's a question mark at the end of this thread title.


Why did this thread go 3 more pages?

User avatar
drdolittle
Posts: 628
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:15 am

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby drdolittle » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:16 pm

But I'm worried the attitude by admins will be to dismiss the rankings altogether because they've fluctuated so much historically. As others have also pointed out, that will probably cause some long term damage.

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4854
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby Borhas » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:18 pm

danquayle wrote:
SoftBoiledLife wrote:I'm unclear on why there's a question mark at the end of this thread title.


Why did this thread go 3 more pages?


Because everyone is an insecure little turd

====

as for this overall shitshow, the fact that it's a shit show, and the fact that a fairly reasonable person like me even comments on it more than a few times means that there is something to it. It's good that the new dean wants to turn it around... because to really positively effect the world you need to be more than good, you also need to be known to be good.

For example, take Swheat, he has a legitimate point, and a fairly reasonable argument. But it falls on deaf ears... why? Because he doesn't have the rhetoric to be persuasive and is perceived as being a prick. It takes more than being right, it also takes developing the rhetorical skills to make other people think you are right, and unfortunately those two things are not necessarily related. The same is true with law schools... being good is not enough in the long run, other people have to believe it, and unfortunately the tactics needed to be good and the tactics needed to persuade others that you are good are not in perfect alignment. But that's just how things go.
Last edited by Borhas on Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
drdolittle
Posts: 628
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:15 am

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby drdolittle » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:26 pm

Borhas wrote:Because everyone is an insecure little turd


Probably true for most TLS posters... :)

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4854
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby Borhas » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:30 pm

drdolittle wrote:
Borhas wrote:Because everyone is an insecure little turd


Probably true for most TLS posters... :)


oh it's especially true for TLS :mrgreen:

User avatar
General Tso
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby General Tso » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:37 pm

Borhas wrote:For example, take Swheat, he has a legitimate point, and a fairly reasonable argument. But it falls one deaf ears... why? Because he doesn't have the rhetoric to be persuasive and is perceived as being a prick. It takes more than being right, it also takes developing the rhetorical skills to make other people think you are right, and unfortunately those two things are not necessarily related.


How would you have made my argument more persuasively?

You can't say boo about someone's school without people tearing into you with personal attacks: "whiny baby" "why are you butt sore" "acting like a douche". I haven't complained of anything other than

(1) what I perceive as Davis' gainful misrepresentations
(2) it's possible effect on my future bottom line
(3) USNWR in general

Sure I have thrown some sarcasm into the mix, and maybe I have traded a few jabs with people, but come on this is TLS.

User avatar
danquayle
Posts: 1108
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:12 am

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby danquayle » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:40 pm

swheat wrote:
Borhas wrote:For example, take Swheat, he has a legitimate point, and a fairly reasonable argument. But it falls one deaf ears... why? Because he doesn't have the rhetoric to be persuasive and is perceived as being a prick. It takes more than being right, it also takes developing the rhetorical skills to make other people think you are right, and unfortunately those two things are not necessarily related.


How would you have made my argument more persuasively?

You can't say boo about someone's school without people tearing into you with personal attacks: "whiny baby" "why are you butt sore" "acting like a douche". I haven't complained of anything other than

(1) what I perceive as Davis' gainful misrepresentations
(2) it's possible effect on my future bottom line
(3) USNWR in general

Sure I have thrown some sarcasm into the mix, and maybe I have traded a few jabs with people, but come on this is TLS.


I think he just called you ugly.

User avatar
20160810
Posts: 19648
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:18 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby 20160810 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:43 pm

More like HasTTTings amirite doods?

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4854
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby Borhas » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:49 pm

I know this is TLS, but that's hardly a bar worth mentioning, there are attention whores and idiots who think there are funny in every thread, but there are also a lot of people who just want some good info, and they're usually not morons like us who have thousands of posts.

Anyway, I'm not smart enough to say what is right, but sometime I do know what is wrong. Anyway it's not so much what anyone says but how they say it. You have to come off from a position of cool confidence, not panicked rage, lay off the sinking ship bull shit, and focus on measures that will be taken in the future.

We know the factors behind UCD's boost, they have literally unbelievable employment #'s despite being equal in every single outcome measured on this site (NLJ 250, Vault 25, PI+Government, Fed Clerkships) and that renovation they had probably increased their money per student number (not sure if that's still a factor though). The % differences are statistically insignificant in every category. Create one thread, with ALL the evidence laid out. Defend the argument elsewhere, but that has restrictions as well, like don't jump into the Acceptance thread. The threads in the acceptance forum serve 2 purposes: 1 helpful info on admissions issues, and 2 circle jerk.

$0.02

User avatar
danquayle
Posts: 1108
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:12 am

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby danquayle » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:51 pm

What I don't get is... Hastings is in San Fransisco right? And Davis is near Sacramento... so isn't Hastings in a far more desirable location? Understand, I've never been to Sacramento, but I get the clear impression that Hastings is like San Fran's Fordham and that San Fran is one of the more desirable locations in the country.

Or does the presence of Stanford and Berkeley simply drown out Hastings?

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4854
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby Borhas » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:53 pm

Hastings does fine, that's not the point, the point is perception

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby Great Satchmo » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:54 pm

swheat wrote:
Borhas wrote:For example, take Swheat, he has a legitimate point, and a fairly reasonable argument. But it falls one deaf ears... why? Because he doesn't have the rhetoric to be persuasive and is perceived as being a prick. It takes more than being right, it also takes developing the rhetorical skills to make other people think you are right, and unfortunately those two things are not necessarily related.


How would you have made my argument more persuasively?

You can't say boo about someone's school without people tearing into you with personal attacks: "whiny baby" "why are you butt sore" "acting like a douche". I haven't complained of anything other than

(1) what I perceive as Davis' gainful misrepresentations
(2) it's possible effect on my future bottom line
(3) USNWR in general

Sure I have thrown some sarcasm into the mix, and maybe I have traded a few jabs with people, but come on this is TLS.



It's more the verve with which you ran around the forums, interjecting into other threads, these points.

I think every point you make is valid and certainly it is understandable that you are frustrated.

However, it seems as though you went off your rocker a bit, and that is what seems to be turning people off from your point of view.

User avatar
General Tso
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby General Tso » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:04 pm

mnolen wrote:swheat, I can understand why you're pissed, but it seems like you've been pretty pissed about attending Hastings all year. I'm also not thrilled about the drop in the rankings, but I don't think it's really going to be a big deal in the grand scheme of things. It won't affect the jobs that are available to us in any practical way. And furthermore, I'm fairly sure it will even out in time. So why all the drama? It seems like you just don't like Hastings and you're happy to have something to complain about. Sorry if I'm being rude, but I don't want people to think that all of us at Hastings are dissatisfied with the school.


I get it...you've had it in for me since that half-serious Cooley to Hastings thread I started 6 months ago. But what I don't get is how you turn this debate -- one in which I've done nothing but try to defend Hastings' slipping reputation -- into me being somehow critical of the school. I have been critical of Hastings in the past...it's hard to take these kind of tuition hikes and not be vocal about it. I haven't taken out my pitchfork or taken to the streets like our Berkeley and SF State counterparts. If I come to an online public forum to rant about it, what's the harm? If you think I am discouraging people from attending Hastings, I am not. As far as I can tell, I am here much more often to answer people's questions about the school than you are. I am not going to be a bimbo Hastings cheerleader....instead I try to tell people the truth, just as Professor Little always suggests when we have visitors to the class.

As far as employment prospects...you are probably right. In the short-term, it probably won't affect us in a significant way. If you are okay with your law school unjustifiably sliding toward T2 mediocrity, that's your prerogative. If I want to come on a law school forum and complain about it, that's mine.

User avatar
drdolittle
Posts: 628
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:15 am

Re: UC Davis now greater than UC Hastings?

Postby drdolittle » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:06 pm

danquayle wrote:What I don't get is... Hastings is in San Fransisco right? And Davis is near Sacramento... so isn't Hastings in a far more desirable location? Understand, I've never been to Sacramento, but I get the clear impression that Hastings is like San Fran's Fordham and that San Fran is one of the more desirable locations in the country.

Or does the presence of Stanford and Berkeley simply drown out Hastings?


All true. There's overlap in admitted students who end up having to choose between two very different educational environments that, until the recent Davis employment coup, had similar job prospects. Understandably everyone remains attached to their choice for emotional reasons, entertaining arguments ensue.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], lmcghee, MichiganHoosier, Yahoo [Bot] and 3 guests