What happened to fordham?!

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superserial
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby superserial » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:01 am

timertimer61 wrote:i must admit, i am pretty disappointed with fordham's new ranking. i feel like its extremely under-ranked at its current 34 rank. is it b/c of part-time? how did it get pushed back so far?


well, I believe a bunch of mentally retarded people trusted USNWR as the law school gospel, when it's a for-profit magazine that needs to shake things up from time to time for publicity (i.e. profits), whereas Fordham's great reputation in NYC will endure for long time.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby DoubleChecks » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:02 am

Nightrunner wrote:Seriously, OS is hot. We get it. We all get it.


really? she sorta looks like a panda to me...

jk :P haha

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DoubleChecks
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby DoubleChecks » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:04 am

Nightrunner wrote:Pandas are hot? What are you, racist?


against my own race? no way! im chinese you know (same thing)

flcath
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby flcath » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:05 am

Nightrunner wrote:Whoa, flcath with actual discussion!

I also read that refutation, and it held some water. Still, I think that PT numbers have some sway on medians, and schools in the 20-35 region are all very close and easily affected by slight variations in the numbers. So, it seems most logical to me that the PT programs remain a powerful factor in minor changes.

Shame. Like many people (total speculation there) I lumped Fordham in with that mass of about 6-8 other schools right after the T18, viewing them as mostly identical. But 34 is a LONG way off from 20-25. I think (again, total speculation) that Fordham still has that mid 20's "feel" to it, but that's going to become untenable if things don't get better.

I guess Fordham's pretty much a single-market school, so as long as it stays easily distinguishable from Brooklyn things'll be okay. Still, tuition + COL is so much... if I were an applicant, I don't know if I could do it.

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romothesavior
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:07 am

flcath wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:Whoa, flcath with actual discussion!

I also read that refutation, and it held some water. Still, I think that PT numbers have some sway on medians, and schools in the 20-35 region are all very close and easily affected by slight variations in the numbers. So, it seems most logical to me that the PT programs remain a powerful factor in minor changes.

Shame. Like many people (total speculation there) I lumped Fordham in with that mass of about 6-8 other schools right after the T18, viewing them as mostly identical. But 34 is a LONG way off from 20-25. I think (again, total speculation) that Fordham still has that mid 20's "feel" to it, but that's going to become untenable if things don't get better.

I guess Fordham's pretty much a single-market school, so as long as it stays easily distinguishable from Brooklyn things'll be okay. Still, tuition + COL is so much... if I were an applicant, I don't know if I could do it.


+1. No way I could do it. Fordham is not worth sticker, or anywhere close to sticker. Large class size + tons of competition in NYC for the loss.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:07 am

superserial wrote:
timertimer61 wrote:i must admit, i am pretty disappointed with fordham's new ranking. i feel like its extremely under-ranked at its current 34 rank. is it b/c of part-time? how did it get pushed back so far?


well, I believe a bunch of mentally retarded people trusted USNWR as the law school gospel, when it's a for-profit magazine that needs to shake things up from time to time for publicity (i.e. profits), whereas Fordham's great reputation in NYC will endure for long time.


<3

This is true. Fordham's consistently modest ranking hasn't kept it from coming next after the T14 in NYC biglaw placement.

flcath
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby flcath » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:09 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
flcath wrote:So are these drops (GW last year, Fordham this year) definitively related to PT? I remember there was a strong refutation given last year by a GWU part-timer, suggesting that it might just be empty correlation (incorporating PT into rankings --> 2 schools w/ PT programs fall).


More than two fell. Temple, Suffolk, and some other lower ranked schools with PT programs also fell, though not all of them did. Not every school has a large disparity between FT and PT numbers, though most have some disparity.

And yes, I remember that. I think it was MrOrange. He said something about career placement taking a hit, but unless it was a one year hit that suddenly corrected itself, I am forced to conclude that it was the PT numbers, since we know exactly how GW reacted this year, and we saw the bounce back.

So is the main impact of cutting the PT sizes to mitigate their statistical impact of the whole student body, or to just increase the selectivity of the PT to near-FT standards?

Why hasn't GULC gone down? (In addition to the PT/FT-related curiosity, I'm also just plain disappointed.)

bconly
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby bconly » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:09 am

OperaSoprano wrote:GW dropped eight spots last year, when PT numbers were first included. This year, GW cut the PT class to around 50 people and added more FT seats. Fordham did not allow USNews to shape its policies regarding PT class size. Since evening classes are crucial to working adults, people with families, and people who want/need more scheduling flexibility, I believe Fordham did the right thing by not shrinking its part time class to game the rankings. My PT class is the same size as the one that came before it. There are rumors afoot that Fordham may be forced to change this policy, because people care a lot about the rankings, and deans have been fired if schools slip. I think the evening program is one of Fordham's singular strengths, and I very much hope this doesn't happen because people are obsessed with a news magazine.


As far as I know, Loyola didn't alter their PT class numbers and they jumped 15 spots.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:09 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:Seriously, OS is hot. We get it. We all get it.


really? she sorta looks like a panda to me...

jk :P haha


lol, I took that picture at the San Diego Zoo. The panda just looked up at me mid-snack, and I couldn't resist.

flcath
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby flcath » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:12 am

Nightrunner wrote:
flcath wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:Whoa, flcath with actual discussion!

I also read that refutation, and it held some water. Still, I think that PT numbers have some sway on medians, and schools in the 20-35 region are all very close and easily affected by slight variations in the numbers. So, it seems most logical to me that the PT programs remain a powerful factor in minor changes.

Shame. Like many people (total speculation there) I lumped Fordham in with that mass of about 6-8 other schools right after the T18, viewing them as mostly identical. But 34 is a LONG way off from 20-25. I think (again, total speculation) that Fordham still has that mid 20's "feel" to it, but that's going to become untenable if things don't get better.

I guess Fordham's pretty much a single-market school, so as long as it stays easily distinguishable from Brooklyn things'll be okay. Still, tuition + COL is so much... if I were an applicant, I don't know if I could do it.

Honestly, people are a little too interested in the ranking number, and not interested enough in the 'Overall Score.'

Quick: what's the difference between #28 and #34?
Answer: 1 point.

All those schools are, to paraphrase the immortal Dennis Green, exactly who we thought they were: very strong and highly respected regional schools. They place very, very well in certain places. Whether Fordham is #27 or #39, it doesn't change the fact that it is the third best law school in the law capital of the nation. Ohio State, for another example, is going to be the best school in Ohio, regardless of whether the number next to their name starts with 2 or 3, or even 4.

Listen, you're right, obviously. But you're also thinking of it (as we usually do--and as we should do--on TLS) from the perspective of the employer. I'm saying, if I'm a kid applying 3 years from now and Fordham's been in the mid-30s the whole time, my chances of taking a low-money offer are different than they would be this year/last year.

Edit: and we don't look at the raw scores b/c that would presume we respect the methodology. The methodology, really, is kinda stupid (library volumes???, dollars per student???, GPA???). I only use the raw scores to predict the likelihood in a change in ranking from one year to the next.
Last edited by flcath on Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby DoubleChecks » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:13 am

Nightrunner wrote:I meant against pandas. I guess I should have said 'speciesist,' but I hesitate to create new words at 2am.


i thought pandas were chinese

okay ill stop this odd tangent lol

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OperaSoprano
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:15 am

flcath wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
flcath wrote:So are these drops (GW last year, Fordham this year) definitively related to PT? I remember there was a strong refutation given last year by a GWU part-timer, suggesting that it might just be empty correlation (incorporating PT into rankings --> 2 schools w/ PT programs fall).


More than two fell. Temple, Suffolk, and some other lower ranked schools with PT programs also fell, though not all of them did. Not every school has a large disparity between FT and PT numbers, though most have some disparity.

And yes, I remember that. I think it was MrOrange. He said something about career placement taking a hit, but unless it was a one year hit that suddenly corrected itself, I am forced to conclude that it was the PT numbers, since we know exactly how GW reacted this year, and we saw the bounce back.

So is the main impact of cutting the PT sizes to mitigate their statistical impact of the whole student body, or to just increase the selectivity of the PT to near-FT standards?

Why hasn't GULC gone down? (In addition to the PT/FT-related curiosity, I'm also just plain disappointed.)


To your first question, I think the answer is both.

To your second, we've observed that including PT numbers hasn't stopped some schools from rising. It's still only one factor, but at schools that have very large PT classes relative to their FT classes (Fordham has 160 PT and 320 FT students), a drop in the rankings is more likely, unless the school can raise their PT numbers, or make up for the disparity by raising peer ranking scores. In other words, it isn't impossible for a school with a PT program to rise, as Loyola did. It might indicate that the FT/PT numbers disparity is a lot smaller, or that the school improved measurably in some other category, or even that it gamed the rankings blatantly, the way BLS did last year.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:18 am

Also, for the record, there is a rumor afoot that Fordham will now have no choice but to cut the PT class, and people say it may begin with this entering class.

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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby wasgoingtolawschool » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:25 am

My nickname on this board is goingtolawschool. I am a 1L at a T10 (Hi Ken) and a regular contributor to this board.

Earlier tonight, I posted a reply in a thread that discussed Fordham. My reply addressed comments that were made by Opera Soprano and was very respectful. I know nothing about her personal life so I can't see how I could have possibly violated her privacy. There were some comments that were made about autism in that thread (not by me).

Opera Soprano did not like my respectful reply to her message and not only did she delete this thread, but she permanently banned me from TLS.

I would like to have that thread read by a mod and I want to receive an update about your decision regarding my ban and regarding Opera Soprano's conduct.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:30 am

wasgoingtolawschool wrote:My nickname on this board is goingtolawschool. I am a 1L at a T10 (Hi Ken) and a regular contributor to this board.

Earlier tonight, I posted a reply in a thread that discussed Fordham. My reply addressed comments that were made by Opera Soprano and was very respectful. I know nothing about her personal life so I can't see how I could have possibly violated her privacy. There were some comments that were made about autism in that thread (not by me).

Opera Soprano did not like my respectful reply to her message and not only did she delete this thread, but she permanently banned me from TLS.

I would like to have that thread read by a mod and I want to receive an update about your decision regarding my ban and regarding Opera Soprano's conduct.


This individual engaged in inappropriate harassment and trolling, and was dealt with accordingly.

flcath
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby flcath » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:31 am

OperaSoprano wrote:Also, for the record, there is a rumor afoot that Fordham will now have no choice but to cut the PT class, and people say it may begin with this entering class.

You guys have an extraordinarily fast rumor mill.

If my understanding is correct, the effect of cutting PT would be a function of the percentage of the class that's cut (i.e., if GW cut from 100 to 50, you guys would have to cut from 160 to 80 to accomplish the same thing). Cutting 20 seats wouldn't do much.

I'd heard that NYC employers liked the PT?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:34 am

flcath wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:Also, for the record, there is a rumor afoot that Fordham will now have no choice but to cut the PT class, and people say it may begin with this entering class.

You guys have an extraordinarily fast rumor mill.

If my understanding is correct, the effect of cutting PT would be a function of the percentage of the class that's cut (i.e., if GW cut from 100 to 50, you guys would have to cut from 160 to 80 to accomplish the same thing). Cutting 20 seats wouldn't do much.

I'd heard that NYC employers liked the PT?


It was actually rumored before tonight, but I have a feeling that if it was ever considered, this will clinch it.

Employers do like PT students, because most of us have pretty good work experience. I know multiple alums who landed biglaw positions after starting (and some finishing) part time. One was at a V5 firm (he was at the very top of the class, I believe), so it's very doable.

amgoingtolawschool
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby amgoingtolawschool » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:37 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
wasgoingtolawschool wrote:My nickname on this board is goingtolawschool. I am a 1L at a T10 (Hi Ken) and a regular contributor to this board.

Earlier tonight, I posted a reply in a thread that discussed Fordham. My reply addressed comments that were made by Opera Soprano and was very respectful. I know nothing about her personal life so I can't see how I could have possibly violated her privacy. There were some comments that were made about autism in that thread (not by me).

Opera Soprano did not like my respectful reply to her message and not only did she delete this thread, but she permanently banned me from TLS.

I would like to have that thread read by a mod and I want to receive an update about your decision regarding my ban and regarding Opera Soprano's conduct.


This individual engaged in inappropriate harassment and trolling, and was dealt with accordingly.

This is simply a lie.

For the record, she banned my new nickname, too. Her conduct is nothing short of terrorizing this board. Someone needs to put an end to this immediately.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:41 am

amgoingtolawschool wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
wasgoingtolawschool wrote:My nickname on this board is goingtolawschool. I am a 1L at a T10 (Hi Ken) and a regular contributor to this board.

Earlier tonight, I posted a reply in a thread that discussed Fordham. My reply addressed comments that were made by Opera Soprano and was very respectful. I know nothing about her personal life so I can't see how I could have possibly violated her privacy. There were some comments that were made about autism in that thread (not by me).

Opera Soprano did not like my respectful reply to her message and not only did she delete this thread, but she permanently banned me from TLS.

I would like to have that thread read by a mod and I want to receive an update about your decision regarding my ban and regarding Opera Soprano's conduct.


This individual engaged in inappropriate harassment and trolling, and was dealt with accordingly.

This is simply a lie.

For the record, she banned my new nickname, too. Her conduct is nothing short of terrorizing this board. Someone needs to put an end to this immediately.


Umm, yes. My conduct is terrorism. Enjoy your time in ban land.

flcath
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby flcath » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:45 am

Stupid question evincing my lack of knowledge of PT programs: against whom are you ranked? If only other PTers, do you think the same work would produce a meaningful difference in rank?

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OneKnight
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby OneKnight » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:47 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
To your second, we've observed that including PT numbers hasn't stopped some schools from rising. It's still only one factor, but at schools that have very large PT classes relative to their FT classes (Fordham has 160 PT and 320 FT students), a drop in the rankings is more likely, unless the school can raise their PT numbers, or make up for the disparity by raising peer ranking scores. In other words, it isn't impossible for a school with a PT program to rise, as Loyola did. It might indicate that the FT/PT numbers disparity is a lot smaller, or that the school improved measurably in some other category, or even that it gamed the rankings blatantly, the way BLS did last year.


That makes sense, but how did Gtown maintain its T14 status when it has 450 full-time students and 132 part-time students in each class (22% of each class) versus Fordham's 320/160 (33% of each class)? Shouldn't it have experienced a proportional drop in its score? GULC's PT admissions %iles are also much lower than FT...
I'm not GULC trolling, I seriously just don't get it.

That said, I don't think a -4 drop in the rankings means anything. Fordham is, and always will be, number 3 in the Big Apple (and with a fantastic location, mind you).

EDIT: Also, we New Yorkers (and all East Coasters) should probably go to sleep soon ^-^

flcath
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby flcath » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:50 am

amgoingtolawschool wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
wasgoingtolawschool wrote:My nickname on this board is goingtolawschool. I am a 1L at a T10 (Hi Ken) and a regular contributor to this board.

Earlier tonight, I posted a reply in a thread that discussed Fordham. My reply addressed comments that were made by Opera Soprano and was very respectful. I know nothing about her personal life so I can't see how I could have possibly violated her privacy. There were some comments that were made about autism in that thread (not by me).

Opera Soprano did not like my respectful reply to her message and not only did she delete this thread, but she permanently banned me from TLS.

I would like to have that thread read by a mod and I want to receive an update about your decision regarding my ban and regarding Opera Soprano's conduct.


This individual engaged in inappropriate harassment and trolling, and was dealt with accordingly.

This is simply a lie.

For the record, she banned my new nickname, too. Her conduct is nothing short of terrorizing this board. Someone needs to put an end to this immediately.

Even if we (everyone here but OS) were so inclined, and you were absolutely correct, we cannot help you. Go to bed and send a PM to Ken in the morning. (Or send it now, but obv no action will be taken before tomorrow.)

When writing your complaint, I suggest you develop multiple incisive comparisons between your experience with TLS board moderation and the Jews' experience with the NSDAP.

amgoingtolawschool
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby amgoingtolawschool » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:50 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
amgoingtolawschool wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
wasgoingtolawschool wrote:My nickname on this board is goingtolawschool. I am a 1L at a T10 (Hi Ken) and a regular contributor to this board.

Earlier tonight, I posted a reply in a thread that discussed Fordham. My reply addressed comments that were made by Opera Soprano and was very respectful. I know nothing about her personal life so I can't see how I could have possibly violated her privacy. There were some comments that were made about autism in that thread (not by me).

Opera Soprano did not like my respectful reply to her message and not only did she delete this thread, but she permanently banned me from TLS.

I would like to have that thread read by a mod and I want to receive an update about your decision regarding my ban and regarding Opera Soprano's conduct.


This individual engaged in inappropriate harassment and trolling, and was dealt with accordingly.

This is simply a lie.

For the record, she banned my new nickname, too. Her conduct is nothing short of terrorizing this board. Someone needs to put an end to this immediately.


Umm, yes. My conduct is terrorism. Enjoy your time in ban land.

I am not sure who you think you are, but rest assured I am not one to let go of this.

Systematically trolling for Fordham is one thing, but banning members who take different views in a polite way (and I would like to invite all the mods to look at my posts in the said thread) is utterly unacceptable.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:52 am

flcath wrote:Stupid question evincing my lack of knowledge of PT programs: against whom are you ranked? If only other PTers, do you think the same work would produce a meaningful difference in rank?


I'm not actually sure of the answer to this. Some people have suggested that it is easier to do well (relatively speaking) if you attend part time and don't work. This makes sense if you consider the extra time to study, but PT students only take one class under a full course load each semester. It's still extremely time consuming, to the point that I advice people not to work full time unless they absolutely must.

flcath
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby flcath » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:53 am

OneKnight wrote:That makes sense, but how did Gtown maintain its T14 status when it has 450 full-time students and 132 part-time students in each class (22% of each class) versus Fordham's 320/160 (33% of each class)? Shouldn't it have experienced a proportional drop in its score? GULC's PT admissions %iles are also much lower than FT...
I'm not GULC trolling, I seriously just don't get it.

Wondering the same thing. The GULC FT and PT standards are famously disparate.

And you may doubt the impact of a 4-rank drop to Fordham, but no one here would miss the significance of a 1-rank drop for GULC.




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