What happened to fordham?!

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OperaSoprano
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:55 pm

itsfine wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
timertimer61 wrote:i must admit, i am pretty disappointed with fordham's new ranking. i feel like its extremely under-ranked at its current 34 rank. is it b/c of part-time? how did it get pushed back so far?


Here are my observations, as shared in another thread:

OperaSoprano wrote:GW dropped eight spots last year, when PT numbers were first included. This year, GW cut the PT class to around 50 people and added more FT seats. Fordham did not allow USNews to shape its policies regarding PT class size. Since evening classes are crucial to working adults, people with families, and people who want/need more scheduling flexibility, I believe Fordham did the right thing by not shrinking its part time class to game the rankings. My PT class is the same size as the one that came before it. There are rumors afoot that Fordham may be forced to change this policy, because people care a lot about the rankings, and deans have been fired if schools slip. I think the evening program is one of Fordham's singular strengths, and I very much hope this doesn't happen because people are obsessed with a news magazine.


Yeah, but they had the same part time program when they were ranked higher, while USNWR looked into part time programs and counted them. They did nothing different, and are now ranked lower. So isn't it a bit foolish to say that their decrease is a result of part time program?? Maybe if this happened a year ago like it did to GW because the policy was different at USNWR, but it hasn't changed this year, and Fordham dropped, so it seems pretty reasonable to assume that the drop was not because of their part time program.


We did drop last year, and I attribute that drop to PT numbers. Fordham's score, 62, remained the same this year. Other schools climbed to 63. Fordham is essentially one spot lower than it was, with the same overall score.

Other schools, most notably GW, changed their PT policies. In staying at 62, Fordham declined relative to those schools that increased their scores, and after seeing GW's bounce back, it makes sense that my school plans to follow suit. To be clear, I think Fordham would have risen this year if it had done the same, but I'm glad it didn't. I wouldn't be here, most likely, if it had. I know it could save our rank, but I still feel that shrinking this program is a disservice to students who want or need to work.

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Always Credited
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby Always Credited » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:08 pm

All I know is that if Fordham's employment numbers were really as nice as what was given out by Fordham, they should've done better relative to other schools.

It wasn't the PT-programs weak scores that held it back...in fact, Fordham's PT program (to its credit) boasts numbers stronger than schools ranked ahead of it and equal to it. Most notably Georgia and OSU.

So if Fordham's PT program is better than those schools FT programs, and Fordham's FT program is miles ahead of them, clearly the PT program wasn't the anchor.

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Always Credited
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby Always Credited » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:25 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
Always Credited wrote:All I know is that if Fordham's employment numbers were really as nice as what was given out by Fordham, they should've done better relative to other schools.

It wasn't the PT-programs weak scores that held it back...in fact, Fordham's PT program (to its credit) boasts numbers stronger than schools ranked ahead of it and equal to it. Most notably Georgia and OSU.

So if Fordham's PT program is better than those schools FT programs, and Fordham's FT program is miles ahead of them, clearly the PT program wasn't the anchor.

AC, I'm a big fan of yours, but this time you're less than credited: everything you said would be true if employment numbers meant much in the USNWR rankings.

You do have a good point, though, about those who rush to blame the PT program: Fordham's PT numbers are very good, and I sincerely hope that no one does anything stupid to cut the program because their overall score remained exactly the same.


Yeah, I only threw the employment issue in there because Fordham's presented data is so good that it stands out head-and-shoulders above its peer schools. Coupled with the other statement concerning the relative strength of its PT program compared again to peer FT programs, I don't think either of these can be to blame for its fall (or more accurately, lack of gain).

People in this thread have been quick to point out the PT program and then the NYC employment meltdown as the Achilles Heels of Fordham, but I really don't think so. I think its a combination of, as you pointed out, many other more miscellaneous categories that don't matter much in the grand scheme of things, but factor into USNWR.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:48 pm

Always Credited wrote:All I know is that if Fordham's employment numbers were really as nice as what was given out by Fordham, they should've done better relative to other schools.

It wasn't the PT-programs weak scores that held it back...in fact, Fordham's PT program (to its credit) boasts numbers stronger than schools ranked ahead of it and equal to it. Most notably Georgia and OSU.

So if Fordham's PT program is better than those schools FT programs, and Fordham's FT program is miles ahead of them, clearly the PT program wasn't the anchor.


Fordham's overall admit numbers (both PT and FT) went up (both 25th and 75th percentiles gained a point), while employment numbers took a modest hit (2 or 3 percentage points), given what was going on in the New York market when the class of 2009 graduated. As stated before, the assessment scores remained the same. The point I am making is not that Fordham has a weak PT class. It does not. New PT 25th/75th numbers are 161 and 165, and these are higher than last year's numbers. These are the highest numbers in the program's history. If Fordham had followed GW's lead, however, overall numbers would be even higher. It's a relatively quick way to climb in the rankings, which is why I think Fordham will do it, even if there are other things the school could do to increase its rank. NYC employment issues were a factor, but Fordham can't tell the recession to take a hike, and peer reputation scores don't change drastically overnight.

I don't think the drop will have the slightest effect on current students, but I am enjoying the debate.

BTW, Fordham's bar pass rate went up. (The overall rate did too, but not by as much.)

goingtolawschool
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby goingtolawschool » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:48 pm

YCrevolution wrote:Just so that all of the alts of goingtolawschool don't feel neglected (goingtolawschool, [removed alts]... and there's plenty more):

Even before the Fordham comments, goingtolawschool's posts often exhibited trolling behavior and a disregard for a basic modicum of civility. The fact that goingtolawschool maintained an impressive menagerie of alts also weighed heavily against his/her continued ability to post on TLS.

Not that I am surprised that my other prestige-obsessed classmates use the same computer labs as myself to post on this board, but I am surprised that you chose to commit a federal crime (in a message that was later edited by TLS personnel) that involved invasion of privacy through means interstate commerce.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:55 pm

goingtolawschool wrote:
YCrevolution wrote:Just so that all of the alts of goingtolawschool don't feel neglected (goingtolawschool, [removed alts]... and there's plenty more):

Even before the Fordham comments, goingtolawschool's posts often exhibited trolling behavior and a disregard for a basic modicum of civility. The fact that goingtolawschool maintained an impressive menagerie of alts also weighed heavily against his/her continued ability to post on TLS.

Not that I am surprised that my other prestige-obsessed classmates use the same computer labs as myself to post on this board, but I am surprised that you chose to commit a federal crime (in a message that was later edited by TLS personnel) that involved invasion of privacy through means interstate commerce.


The impression you've left on me from seeing your last 2 days of posts:

Image

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FunkyJD
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby FunkyJD » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:08 pm

goingtolawschool wrote:Not that I am surprised that my other prestige-obsessed classmates use the same computer labs as myself to post on this board, but I am surprised that you chose to commit a federal crime (in a message that was later edited by TLS personnel) that involved invasion of privacy through means interstate commerce.

I-P Ban him
*clap clap, clap clap clap*

I-P Ban him
*clap clap, clap clap clap*

goingtolawschool
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby goingtolawschool » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:11 pm

FunkyJD wrote:
goingtolawschool wrote:Not that I am surprised that my other prestige-obsessed classmates use the same computer labs as myself to post on this board, but I am surprised that you chose to commit a federal crime (in a message that was later edited by TLS personnel) that involved invasion of privacy through means interstate commerce.

I-P Ban him
*clap clap, clap clap clap*

I-P Ban him
*clap clap, clap clap clap*

Actually, there's no need to ban me. I am done contributing my time and valuable advice to this board.

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FunkyJD
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby FunkyJD » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:13 pm

goingtolawschool wrote:Actually, there's no need to ban me. I am done contributing my time and valuable advice to this board.

Your powers are useless on me, dood. They are no match for my abilities.

flcath
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby flcath » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:14 pm

goingtolawschool wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:
goingtolawschool wrote:Not that I am surprised that my other prestige-obsessed classmates use the same computer labs as myself to post on this board, but I am surprised that you chose to commit a federal crime (in a message that was later edited by TLS personnel) that involved invasion of privacy through means interstate commerce.

I-P Ban him
*clap clap, clap clap clap*

I-P Ban him
*clap clap, clap clap clap*

Actually, there's no need to ban me. I am done contributing my time and valuable advice to this board.

Okay, I'll admit it. That's kinda funny.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby Mr. Matlock » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:50 pm

goingtolawschool wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:
goingtolawschool wrote:Not that I am surprised that my other prestige-obsessed classmates use the same computer labs as myself to post on this board, but I am surprised that you chose to commit a federal crime (in a message that was later edited by TLS personnel) that involved invasion of privacy through means interstate commerce.

I-P Ban him
*clap clap, clap clap clap*

I-P Ban him
*clap clap, clap clap clap*

Actually, there's no need to ban me. I am done contributing my time and valuable advice to this board.

I blame the parents. They really fucked up with this piece of shit.

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Rock Chalk
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby Rock Chalk » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:09 pm

.
Last edited by Rock Chalk on Wed May 16, 2012 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby Mr. Matlock » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:19 pm

Rock Chalk wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I tremble in fear at the power of the mods.

+1.. After reading through this thread, this is pretty much what I've gotten out of it.

AutoAdmit. I'm sure you'll love it.

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Always Credited
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby Always Credited » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:43 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:
Rock Chalk wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I tremble in fear at the power of the mods.

+1.. After reading through this thread, this is pretty much what I've gotten out of it.

AutoAdmit. I'm sure you'll love it.


The format over there freaks me out a little bit

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FunkyJD
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby FunkyJD » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:11 am

Nightrunner wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:I blame the parents. They really fucked up with this piece of shit.

Either too many beatings or not enough beatings. It is a delicate balance, really.

:lol:

flcath
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby flcath » Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:50 am

Nightrunner wrote:
Always Credited wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:AutoAdmit. I'm sure you'll love it.


The format over there freaks me out a little bit

I'm proud to say I don't have anything to do with AutoAdmit.

As much as I hate to admit it--I concur with the "xoxo is scum and a disgrace to the profession" line--it's actually a pretty good source of biglaw employment info.

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PDaddy
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby PDaddy » Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:30 am

JollyGreenGiant wrote:When will people realize that most of the post 20 ranked schools are a clusterfuck?

The difference between a school like minnesota and fordham is nil.. yet they are ranked pretty damn far apart.


Thank you! this is what I kept trying to tell a former online "friend". The #20-#60 or so schools could easily be turned upside down or scrambled, and, with a few exceptions, the rankings would still look realistic (can anyone really see Notre Dame Law at #50? :roll:)

But back to the deliberate point of the thread, what do y'all think will happen once USNWR folds? Can people forget the image of the T14 "consortium", for lack of a better word?

Will people forget the controversy over the four T14 bastard stepchildren (UCLA, USC, Vandy, and TX), and how they played musical chairs, with USC the consensus bottom of the four?

Can people forget the general ficture of about 12 schools ranked from #19-#25 (Minn, GWU, ND, Emory, WUSTL, BC, BU, IL, Iowa, Fordham,UNC, and W & L) at various points?

Will people forget the image of the well-established bottom of "T1" schools (Hastings, Davis, Wake, BYU, Tulane, AZ, AZ St., UConn, Florida, American, Colorado, Utah, Case, and MD)?

My guess is that they won't. It's going to take a very long time to rid people of the perceptions of relative quality they have etched into their heads. When I think of a school, I also tend to remember its USNWR rank, which is a very bad thing.

I hope there comes a world when I can see GWU as the 11th best school in the country, and I can see Duke drop out of the top-20 a few times. I hope Hastings reaches the top-20 again. I want to see Tulane, Wisconsion, Ohio State, and Arizona get their due and be ranked in the top-25 at some point. I hope Michigan can be ranked at #15 some day, while Chicago can be #1 and NU #4. Why can't UCLA be #7?

When the rankings become less fixed, I will know they are actually based on something meaningful.

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Doritos
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Re: What happened to fordham?!

Postby Doritos » Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:10 pm

PDaddy wrote:
I hope there comes a world when I can see GWU as the 11th best school in the country, and I can see Duke drop out of the top-20 a few times. I hope Hastings reaches the top-20 again. I want to see Tulane, Wisconsion, Ohio State, and Arizona get their due and be ranked in the top-25 at some point. I hope Michigan can be ranked at #15 some day, while Chicago can be #1 and NU #4. Why can't UCLA be #7?

When the rankings become less fixed, I will know they are actually based on something meaningful.


What?




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