what does everyone hate American University on this site?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
FunkyJD
Posts: 1039
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:38 pm

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby FunkyJD » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:24 pm

Not-A-Teabagger wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:But seriously, though ... and I'm trying to not be an ass about this ... but how can we assume this? How does this work? If you're not competitive for biglaw in DC, and you're not competitive for midlaw, how are you competitive for an attorney position with the feds?

Is it that Catholic kids end up working for the feds in "lesser" federal attorney gigs? What are examples of these? And by comparison, what are the most coveted federal attorney gigs? DOJ? Treasury? Defense/national security agencies? A-list congressional committees? White House Counsel's office?


I think his point is simply that a higher percentage of AU grads choose to take higher paying jobs in the private sector, and that these jobs are less available for Catholic grads. Thus, Catholic grads end up working for the federal government in higher numbers. Just stating my thoughts on his point, i.e. not my opinion.

No, I understand that. Let me put my question a different way:

1. You're an AU grad. You're offered a job at Alston & Bird, and you're offered a job with the House Commerce Committee. You take the Alston job because it pays more. I get that. But ...

2. You're a Catholic grad (or a grad of a non-T14, non-GW school). You're not offered a job at Alston. You're not offered a job at a smaller DC firm. Is someone with this profile likely to be competitive for a federal government job?

Reason I ask is, I've been conditioned to believe that federal jobs were just as competitive as private sector jobs ... which, if true, would suggest that someone who wasn't competitive enough to secure a private firm job probably wouldn't be competitive for a fed job in DC. Thus, I'm wondering if there's a hierarchy for federal government hiring in DC, as in, "these jobs are much more competitive than these" ... and if so, I'm trying to get a rough ideal of what that hierarchy is. Make sense?
Last edited by FunkyJD on Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Teoeo
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:21 am

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Teoeo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:25 pm

FunkyJD wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:
Teoeo wrote:Don't lose sight of my point: that your data is meaningless. I believe that if everyone at AU wanted a federal job, a significantly higher percentage of them would land them over Catholic. The fact that more people from Catholic work for government doesn't mean that they have an edge in that area. For example, a pretty large percentage of McGeorge graduates work in government, more than UC Davis, but I wouldnt take McGeorge over Davis if I wanted to work in government.

So essentially, are you saying that due to self-selection on the part of WCL grads, they place in the federal government in DC in lower percentages than do the kids at Catholic ... or, due to the failure of Catholic kids to end up in the private sector in DC, they end up in federal government jobs?

But seriously, though ... and I'm trying to not be an ass about this ... but how can we assume this? How does this work? If you're not competitive for biglaw in DC, and you're not competitive for midlaw, how are you competitive for an attorney position with the feds?

Is it that Catholic kids end up working for the feds in "lesser" federal attorney gigs? What are examples of these? And by comparison, what are the most coveted federal attorney gigs? DOJ? Treasury? Defense/national security agencies? A-list congressional committees? White House Counsel's office?


I am assuming this since this trend is present in every area. The lower the ranking the higher the government gigs.

User avatar
Always Credited
Posts: 2509
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:31 pm

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Always Credited » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:28 pm

Teoeo wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:
Teoeo wrote:Don't lose sight of my point: that your data is meaningless. I believe that if everyone at AU wanted a federal job, a significantly higher percentage of them would land them over Catholic. The fact that more people from Catholic work for government doesn't mean that they have an edge in that area. For example, a pretty large percentage of McGeorge graduates work in government, more than UC Davis, but I wouldnt take McGeorge over Davis if I wanted to work in government.

So essentially, are you saying that due to self-selection on the part of WCL grads, they place in the federal government in DC in lower percentages than do the kids at Catholic ... or, due to the failure of Catholic kids to end up in the private sector in DC, they end up in federal government jobs?

But seriously, though ... and I'm trying to not be an ass about this ... but how can we assume this? How does this work? If you're not competitive for biglaw in DC, and you're not competitive for midlaw, how are you competitive for an attorney position with the feds?

Is it that Catholic kids end up working for the feds in "lesser" federal attorney gigs? What are examples of these? And by comparison, what are the most coveted federal attorney gigs? DOJ? Treasury? Defense/national security agencies? A-list congressional committees? White House Counsel's office?


I am assuming this since this trend is present in every area. The lower the ranking the higher the government gigs.


I hear the DoJ loves Cooley grads.

270910
Posts: 2437
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 9:51 pm

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby 270910 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:33 pm

OK, here's a big problem:

Federal attorney positions - every single one of them - are very competitive and require strong (but rarely perfect) credentials.

The data getting thrown around for 'government' positions includes SUBSTANTIALLY less competitive state and local government attorney positions. You can have a great life and career working at them, but almost invariably they come with less prestige and pay.

The percentage of the class going into 'government' work from a T14 are probably skipping off to legislative work, DoJ gigs, US Attornies offices, honor's entry programs into the fed, PMF positions, etc.

The percentage of the class going into 'government' work from lower ranked schools will be substantially 'diluted' with grads going into local positions - public defenders offices, local DAs, etc.

Once again, I don't mean to denigrate those positions. But it's important to realize that the data we see here masks a crucial distinction.

A grad getting a Bristow fellowship* - as competitive as a Supreme Court Clerkship - will be marked as getting a 'government' job the same way a public defender in West Virginia would. For many people, the public defender job would be MORE fulfilling - but it certainly doesn't have the exist options or reflect the same competition of the former.

*Bad example, as these tend to require a CoA clerkship first.

The same logic above applies to clerkships, BTW. The 'clerkship' number masks critically important distinctions - CoA v. D. court, federal vs. state, etc.

User avatar
Not-A-Teabagger
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:01 am

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Not-A-Teabagger » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:34 pm

FunkyJD wrote:
Not-A-Teabagger wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:But seriously, though ... and I'm trying to not be an ass about this ... but how can we assume this? How does this work? If you're not competitive for biglaw in DC, and you're not competitive for midlaw, how are you competitive for an attorney position with the feds?

Is it that Catholic kids end up working for the feds in "lesser" federal attorney gigs? What are examples of these? And by comparison, what are the most coveted federal attorney gigs? DOJ? Treasury? Defense/national security agencies? A-list congressional committees? White House Counsel's office?


I think his point is simply that a higher percentage of AU grads choose to take higher paying jobs in the private sector, and that these jobs are less available for Catholic grads. Thus, Catholic grads end up working for the federal government in higher numbers. Just stating my thoughts on his point, i.e. not my opinion.

No, I understand that. Let me put my question a different way:

1. You're an AU grad. You're offered a job at Alston & Bird, and you're offered a job with the House Commerce Committee. You take the Alston job because it pays more. I get that. But ...

2. You're a Catholic grad (or a grad of a non-T14, non-GW school). You're not offered a job at Alston. You're not offered a job at a smaller DC firm. Is someone with this profile likely to be competitive for a federal government job?

Reason I ask is, I've been conditioned to believe that federal jobs were just as competitive as private sector jobs ... which, if true, would suggest that someone who wasn't competitive enough to secure a private firm job probably wouldn't be competitive for a fed job in DC. Thus, I'm wondering if there's a hierarchy for federal government hiring in DC, as in, "these jobs are much more competitive than these" ... and if so, I'm trying to get a rough ideal of what that hierarchy is. Make sense?


I think that there are different levels of fed jobs. The good ones are hard to get, but I think that there are plenty of other fed jobs, e.g.:

Attorney Advisor at the Social Security Administration

* Salary Range: $42,955 - $62,291 per year (may differ by location)

270910
Posts: 2437
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 9:51 pm

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby 270910 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:41 pm

Not-A-Teabagger wrote:I think that there are different levels of fed jobs. The good ones are hard to get, but I think that there are plenty of other fed jobs, e.g.:

Attorney Advisor at the Social Security Administration

* Salary Range: $42,955 - $62,291 per year (may differ by location)


All federal attorney jobs are extraordinarily competitive. All of them. 100%. Down to the very last.

Don't let the starting salary fool you. They have wonderful benefits including a more sane quality of life, retirement packages, and out-of-this-world job security.

User avatar
Not-A-Teabagger
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:01 am

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Not-A-Teabagger » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:43 pm

disco_barred wrote:
Not-A-Teabagger wrote:I think that there are different levels of fed jobs. The good ones are hard to get, but I think that there are plenty of other fed jobs, e.g.:

Attorney Advisor at the Social Security Administration

* Salary Range: $42,955 - $62,291 per year (may differ by location)


All federal attorney jobs are extraordinarily competitive. All of them. 100%. Down to the very last.

Don't let the starting salary fool you. They have wonderful benefits including a more sane quality of life, retirement packages, and out-of-this-world job security.


I wasn't fooled by the starting salary, but rather the prestige of the job. They are not all DOJ gigs.

User avatar
Not-A-Teabagger
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:01 am

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Not-A-Teabagger » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:51 pm

http://www.boston.com/news/education/hi ... aw_school/

See above link for government placement.

User avatar
FunkyJD
Posts: 1039
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:38 pm

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby FunkyJD » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:55 pm

Brutal:

In a recent Regent law school newsletter, a 2004 graduate described being interviewed for a job as a trial attorney at the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division in October 2003. Asked to name the Supreme Court decision from the past 20 years with which he most disagreed, he cited Lawrence v. Texas, the ruling striking down a law against sodomy because it violated gay people's civil rights.

"When one of the interviewers agreed and said that decision in Lawrence was 'maddening,' I knew I correctly answered the question," wrote the Regent graduate . The administration hired him for the Civil Rights Division's housing section -- the only employment offer he received after graduation, he said.

User avatar
Not-A-Teabagger
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:01 am

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Not-A-Teabagger » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:01 pm

FunkyJD wrote:Brutal:

In a recent Regent law school newsletter, a 2004 graduate described being interviewed for a job as a trial attorney at the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division in October 2003. Asked to name the Supreme Court decision from the past 20 years with which he most disagreed, he cited Lawrence v. Texas, the ruling striking down a law against sodomy because it violated gay people's civil rights.

"When one of the interviewers agreed and said that decision in Lawrence was 'maddening,' I knew I correctly answered the question," wrote the Regent graduate . The administration hired him for the Civil Rights Division's housing section -- the only employment offer he received after graduation, he said.


I guess hiring shifts with the political winds...

Something tells me Regent will place well in Virginia this year.

User avatar
FunkyJD
Posts: 1039
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:38 pm

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby FunkyJD » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:11 pm

I'm guessing the Offices of the Attorney General and the Governor will be popular destinations.

User avatar
gdane
Posts: 12423
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:41 pm

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby gdane » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:30 pm

Oh yea. This should have been mentioned beforehand. The amount of attorney jobs available widely depend on what kind of administration is in the white house. Democrats have traditionally invested more in the DOJ and other agencies, while Republicans have traditionally done the opposite. So, if Obama is reelected, then those of use desiring federal government positions might be in better luck.

Ive read the banter on here and its very disappointing to see some of the things that people write. American has great alumni network in DC. They place in Biglaw, clerkships and in the federal government. The notion that going to AU is a death sentence because there are no jobs is ridiculous. The stats prove otherwise. Last year 68 grads went into Biglaw, per the NLJ placement chart and looking through the DOJ directory, there are tons of AU grads working there. Furthermore, the most encouraging stat is the fact that 91% of grads passed the NY Bar. Thats awesome!

I would suggest to those arguing that AU is not a bad school to just let this go. If you are going to/currently attend AU, then do your best and prove some of the people on here wrong.

User avatar
Teoeo
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:21 am

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Teoeo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:07 pm

gdane5 wrote:Oh yea. This should have been mentioned beforehand. The amount of attorney jobs available widely depend on what kind of administration is in the white house. Democrats have traditionally invested more in the DOJ and other agencies, while Republicans have traditionally done the opposite. So, if Obama is reelected, then those of use desiring federal government positions might be in better luck.

Ive read the banter on here and its very disappointing to see some of the things that people write. American has great alumni network in DC. They place in Biglaw, clerkships and in the federal government. The notion that going to AU is a death sentence because there are no jobs is ridiculous. The stats prove otherwise. Last year 68 grads went into Biglaw, per the NLJ placement chart and looking through the DOJ directory, there are tons of AU grads working there. Furthermore, the most encouraging stat is the fact that 91% of grads passed the NY Bar. Thats awesome!

I would suggest to those arguing that AU is not a bad school to just let this go. If you are going to/currently attend AU, then do your best and prove some of the people on here wrong.


Heh, the irony is that I am going to go to GW, but I still don't like the shit AU gets.

bIu3b1rd
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:35 pm

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby bIu3b1rd » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:55 pm

Teoeo wrote:
gdane5 wrote:Oh yea. This should have been mentioned beforehand. The amount of attorney jobs available widely depend on what kind of administration is in the white house. Democrats have traditionally invested more in the DOJ and other agencies, while Republicans have traditionally done the opposite. So, if Obama is reelected, then those of use desiring federal government positions might be in better luck.

Ive read the banter on here and its very disappointing to see some of the things that people write. American has great alumni network in DC. They place in Biglaw, clerkships and in the federal government. The notion that going to AU is a death sentence because there are no jobs is ridiculous. The stats prove otherwise. Last year 68 grads went into Biglaw, per the NLJ placement chart and looking through the DOJ directory, there are tons of AU grads working there. Furthermore, the most encouraging stat is the fact that 91% of grads passed the NY Bar. Thats awesome!

I would suggest to those arguing that AU is not a bad school to just let this go. If you are going to/currently attend AU, then do your best and prove some of the people on here wrong.


Heh, the irony is that I am going to go to GW, but I still don't like the shit AU gets.



+1

hithere
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby hithere » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:08 pm

FunkyJD wrote:
Not-A-Teabagger wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:But seriously, though ... and I'm trying to not be an ass about this ... but how can we assume this? How does this work? If you're not competitive for biglaw in DC, and you're not competitive for midlaw, how are you competitive for an attorney position with the feds?

Is it that Catholic kids end up working for the feds in "lesser" federal attorney gigs? What are examples of these? And by comparison, what are the most coveted federal attorney gigs? DOJ? Treasury? Defense/national security agencies? A-list congressional committees? White House Counsel's office?


I think his point is simply that a higher percentage of AU grads choose to take higher paying jobs in the private sector, and that these jobs are less available for Catholic grads. Thus, Catholic grads end up working for the federal government in higher numbers. Just stating my thoughts on his point, i.e. not my opinion.

No, I understand that. Let me put my question a different way:

1. You're an AU grad. You're offered a job at Alston & Bird, and you're offered a job with the House Commerce Committee. You take the Alston job because it pays more. I get that. But ...

2. You're a Catholic grad (or a grad of a non-T14, non-GW school). You're not offered a job at Alston. You're not offered a job at a smaller DC firm. Is someone with this profile likely to be competitive for a federal government job?

Reason I ask is, I've been conditioned to believe that federal jobs were just as competitive as private sector jobs ... which, if true, would suggest that someone who wasn't competitive enough to secure a private firm job probably wouldn't be competitive for a fed job in DC. Thus, I'm wondering if there's a hierarchy for federal government hiring in DC, as in, "these jobs are much more competitive than these" ... and if so, I'm trying to get a rough ideal of what that hierarchy is. Make sense?


All federal govt. attorney jobs are super competitive (pick an agency-if it's federal, you better have good stats if you want in). The Catholic grad in your hypo aint getting federal govt. (only way would be maybe if he had a ton of connections to somebody in the agency). More than likely, the Catholic grad would get some crap local govt. job.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:16 pm

disco_barred wrote:All federal attorney jobs are extraordinarily competitive. All of them. 100%. Down to the very last.

Don't let the starting salary fool you. They have wonderful benefits including a more sane quality of life, retirement packages, and out-of-this-world job security.

This. This is especially true ITE. Folks are reconsidering their plans, and a lot more people are throwing themselves at FedLaw because BigLaw isn't looking stable or safe anymore. People considering going to American should not make the mistake of thinking they're more clever than people going to the dozen-plus schools that do a better job placing into DC FedLaw, including HYS and most of the T14. Many, many more people are considering FedLaw as a first choice now because it's stable and there's no chance you'll be surprise-deferred and left SOL in the fall.

Don't think that because you'll "settle" for a job with the Social Security Administration or the GAO or whatever, that means you'll get it. There are people from better schools who'll settle for those jobs now too.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: izha, MikkelVilla and 3 guests