what does everyone hate American University on this site?

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Always Credited
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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Always Credited » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:06 pm

GordonBombay wrote:
Always Credited wrote:
Teoeo wrote:I think American can be a great choice for someone interested in government work, especially with IBR.


You assume there are government jobs remaining after the T14+GWU+Vandy take their pick. If there isn't, and you can't find a PI/Gov job, then you're saddled with near insurmountable debt.

American is really a terrible law school in context.


What's with Vandy being thrown in? I know its a highly ranked school but are you just adding it due to rank or does it have particularly strong DC placement?


DC placement slightly below that of GWU, way above that of American.

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby NU_Jet55 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:12 pm

Always Credited wrote:DC placement slightly below that of GWU, way above that of American.


Source?

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby 270910 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:18 pm

Teoeo wrote:I think you are being a little ridiculous, of course there are jobs left, I know quite a few people who work in the federal gov. who went to american.


You seem to be good at logic, Teoeo. Have you considered law school? We could use somebody like you!

NU_Jet55 wrote:
Always Credited wrote:DC placement slightly below that of GWU, way above that of American.


Source?


:lol:

Dear 0Ls: The legal market in its heighday of 05-07 or so was such that only a tiny fraction of graduates from American had opportunities that most pre-law students desire (federal government positions, big firm jobs, prestigious public interest work, whatever the hell 'international law' is). You may not fully understand it yet, but all of the clinics, professors, classes, study abroad opportunities, concentrations, etc. that a school offers are meaningless when it comes to employment prospects.

ALL THAT MATTERS are grades and school rank. And from a school like AU, your grades have to be damn near perfect these days to have a chance at the kind of job you probably want.

If the debt is worth the risk, God Speed and I hope you've done your homework.

If it's not, find out what kind of jobs people around median at AU wind up getting. Here's a hint: They pay substantially less than 70K, probably in the 30-50 neighborhood, are neither glamorous nor international law, and provide poor prospects of upward mobility.

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby NU_Jet55 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:24 pm

disco_barred wrote:They pay substantially less than 70K, probably in the 30-50 neighborhood, are neither glamorous nor international law, and provide poor prospects of upward mobility.


Source?

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby FunkyJD » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:28 pm


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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby 270910 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:30 pm

NU_Jet55 wrote:
disco_barred wrote:They pay substantially less than 70K, probably in the 30-50 neighborhood, are neither glamorous nor international law, and provide poor prospects of upward mobility.


Source?


These things are hard to distill. There won't be one link, one report, one study. But I'm a first year law student at the apex of my legal job search, and I've been through every book, article, PDF, chart, presentation, statistic, and government report you can imagine on legal placement. On top of that, I know and have discussed legal employment prospects with professors, career counselors, and practicing attorneys from associates to partners to judges.

If you WANT to practice law, and think it's worth the debt, and are aware of the legal jobs available to the vast majority of graduates (especially at schools like AU) do not pay very well compared to the debt required to obtain them, then go for it. But people - especially 0Ls - have a shockingly unrealistic idea of the inflated and over-saturated world of legal employment.

FunkyJD wrote:http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

see pg. 5



Right, that too.

Combined with this chart:

Image

Based on the available data from the NALP, NLJ, and school placement offices the bimodal salary chart VASTLY over-reports 160K starting salaries. In reality, roughly 1 in every 9 freshly graduated attorneys has access to a 6 figure starting salary in a good year, and more than 50% of those come from the top 14 (of 200+) law schools in the country.
Last edited by 270910 on Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Always Credited
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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Always Credited » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:31 pm

NU_Jet55 wrote:
Always Credited wrote:DC placement slightly below that of GWU, way above that of American.


Source?



I'm not going to compile and cite the loads of information available from the websites of major DC firms, government agencies and PI organizations, and 3rd party groups formatting this data simply for your viewing pleasue. I took the time to do it for myself; you're a big boy...you can either trust me, or take the time out of your undoubtedly busy life and do it for yourself, too, if its a matter of enough importance to warrant such an action.

edit: Hint: trust me.

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Teoeo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:42 pm

-_-

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Teoeo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:43 pm

disco_barred wrote:
Teoeo wrote:I think you are being a little ridiculous, of course there are jobs left, I know quite a few people who work in the federal gov. who went to american.


You seem to be good at logic, Teoeo. Have you considered law school? We could use somebody like you!

NU_Jet55 wrote:
Always Credited wrote:DC placement slightly below that of GWU, way above that of American.


Source?


:lol:

Dear 0Ls: The legal market in its heighday of 05-07 or so was such that only a tiny fraction of graduates from American had opportunities that most pre-law students desire (federal government positions, big firm jobs, prestigious public interest work, whatever the hell 'international law' is). You may not fully understand it yet, but all of the clinics, professors, classes, study abroad opportunities, concentrations, etc. that a school offers are meaningless when it comes to employment prospects.

ALL THAT MATTERS are grades and school rank. And from a school like AU, your grades have to be damn near perfect these days to have a chance at the kind of job you probably want.

If the debt is worth the risk, God Speed and I hope you've done your homework.

If it's not, find out what kind of jobs people around median at AU wind up getting. Here's a hint: They pay substantially less than 70K, probably in the 30-50 neighborhood, are neither glamorous nor international law, and provide poor prospects of upward mobility.


You are a pleasant fellow, aren't you?

I still assert that saying that American is a terrible law school "in context" is simply wrong. It is a T1 that has worse job prospects than, say, GW. I don't argue that a T30 may be better, but to say that it is incredibly difficult to get a job in government from American is an overstatement. Granted, getting a job at the DOJ may be a stretch coming right out of American, although some do (check DOJ website), but there are plenty of agencies, both federal / state (even county), that hire American grads. Couple this with IBR and it doesn't seem so terrible to me.

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby FunkyJD » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:48 pm

Teoeo wrote:You are a pleasant fellow, aren't you?

I still assert that saying that American is a terrible law school "in context" is simply wrong. It is a T1 that has worse job prospects than, say, GW. I don't argue that a T30 may be better, but to say that it is incredibly difficult to get a job in government from American is an overstatement. Granted, getting a job at the DOJ may be a stretch coming right out of American, although some do (check DOJ website), but there are plenty of agencies, both federal / state (even county), that hire American grads. Couple this with IBR and it doesn't seem so terrible to me.

Seriously, though man ... referencing the above-posted link ... does it bother you that Catholic has better government placement in DC than AU does ... that even Regent has better gov't placement in DC than AU does ... and that U. Baltimore even seems to?

And that Mason, which is cheaper, does?

With or without IBR, is AU at sticker still a good deal?

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Teoeo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:50 pm

That is kind of meaningless, GW has better placement in gov than does GULC (if you simply look at percentages)

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Teoeo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:50 pm

Not to mention, I never said it was a "good deal"

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby 270910 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:51 pm

Teoeo wrote:You are a pleasant fellow, aren't you?

I still assert that saying that American is a terrible law school "in context" is simply wrong. It is a T1 that has worse job prospects than, say, GW. I don't argue that a T30 may be better, but to say that it is incredibly difficult to get a job in government from American is an overstatement. Granted, getting a job at the DOJ may be a stretch coming right out of American, although some do (check DOJ website), but there are plenty of agencies, both federal / state (even county), that hire American grads. Couple this with IBR and it doesn't seem so terrible to me.


1) I am an extraordinarily unpleasant individual, that is correct. In this context, think of me like a miserly ghost of Christmas future.

2) It is harder to get a job with the federal government as an attorney than I am miserly and unpleasant. I go to a school substantially better than AU and know more people than I can count who would sever a limb for a federal government job - including some with grades above median - who cannot get them. And these people aren't picky at this point, believe me.

In the boomiest of boom years ~10% at AU were pulling down govt jobs: http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that 75%+ of the class at American will have almost 0 chance at becoming an attorney for a federal agency or landing any kind of big firm job.

Now, if 25%+ have a chance (though I'd doubt all 25% could) you're going to have dozens of AU grads getting prestigious legal employment every year. No doubt about that. There are AU grads in federal positions and at big firms. But most of them are not and could never be.

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby FunkyJD » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:51 pm

Teoeo wrote:That is kind of meaningless, GW has better placement in gov than does GULC (if you simply look at percentages)

Perhaps, but that's mitigated by GULC's superior biglaw and clerkship placement. What's your backup plan at AU?

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Teoeo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:52 pm

FunkyJD wrote:
Teoeo wrote:That is kind of meaningless, GW has better placement in gov than does GULC (if you simply look at percentages)

Perhaps, but that's mitigated by GULC's superior biglaw and clerkship placement. What's your backup plan at AU?


? same thing?, are you saying that the schools you listed do better in the private sector than AU?

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Teoeo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:52 pm

Although maybe I would substitue big law with mid. law

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby FunkyJD » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:53 pm

Teoeo wrote:Not to mention, I never said it was a "good deal"


Teoeo wrote:I think American can be a great choice for someone interested in government work, especially with IBR.
Last edited by FunkyJD on Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby FunkyJD » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:54 pm

Teoeo wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:
Teoeo wrote:That is kind of meaningless, GW has better placement in gov than does GULC (if you simply look at percentages)

Perhaps, but that's mitigated by GULC's superior biglaw and clerkship placement. What's your backup plan at AU?


? same thing?, are you saying that the schools you listed do better in the private sector than AU?

Mason and even Richmond do. Catholic comes within a few points.

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Teoeo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:56 pm

FunkyJD wrote:
Teoeo wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:
Teoeo wrote:That is kind of meaningless, GW has better placement in gov than does GULC (if you simply look at percentages)

Perhaps, but that's mitigated by GULC's superior biglaw and clerkship placement. What's your backup plan at AU?


? same thing?, are you saying that the schools you listed do better in the private sector than AU?

Mason and even Richmond do. Catholic comes within a few points.


Ok, you guys are all completely right. I am going back to work now.

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby FunkyJD » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:58 pm

Facts are motherfuckers, aren't they?

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby Teoeo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:00 pm

FunkyJD wrote:Facts are motherfuckers, aren't they?


hah, had to answer. GM is obviously a good school, but your "facts" about catholic being better at placement than AU aren't true. bYEZ

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby 270910 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:01 pm

Teoeo wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:Facts are motherfuckers, aren't they?


hah, had to answer. GM is obviously a good school, but your "facts" about catholic being better at placement than AU aren't true. bYEZ


Yeah, I'm with Teoeo on this one. GM and AU aren't going to have markedly different placement data. My main point is that both will be bad, and many people's financial situation + ambition would caution against going to either.

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby FunkyJD » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:06 pm

Well, then the amlaw chart's wrong. If there are stats to the contrary, I'm happy to be educated.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby 270910 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:08 pm

FunkyJD wrote:Well, then the amlaw chart's wrong. If there are stats to the contrary, I'm happy to be educated.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf


I consider Mason and AU's placement in that chart to be not markedly different.

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Re: what does everyone hate American University on this site?

Postby FunkyJD » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:13 pm

disco_barred wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:Well, then the amlaw chart's wrong. If there are stats to the contrary, I'm happy to be educated.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf


I consider Mason and AU's placement in that chart to be not markedly different.

Sorry, I'm referring more to the idea that Catholic's placement isn't better than AU, at least as it pertains to the federal government in DC. As in:

Teoeo wrote:your "facts" about catholic being better at placement than AU aren't true.


Unless he was referring to Catholic's placement in the private sector versus AU. But no one's arguing that, so I'm not sure what that's about.

There's not much difference between Mason and AU in that respect, which is why it makes no sense to pay more to go to AU.
Last edited by FunkyJD on Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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