Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

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vanstone22
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby vanstone22 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:14 pm

RayFinkle wrote:
vanstone22 wrote:babes ND- my demographic sampling was mainly of UG, but ND kills Wustl.


What good does this do you at ND though? You gotta get a ring on their finger before you can even go out to a non-church sponsored event!



Not true. Not Once. Not Never.

arden
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby arden » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:07 pm

I've visited Notre Dame and it is as impressive as everyone says. The professors are approachable, the kids friendly and easy going, the facilities are amazing, and its reputation and alumni networks are phenomenal. Unlike a lot of the top schools they seem to have a rigorous program. Whether that is a good thing or not depends upon what you are looking for.

I didn't go to ND but I really respect what they have. From what I have seen the only ones that speak ill of ND are people that appear to have never visited the school and know nothing about it. They seem to fall into one of three categories:

1. They have ties to a "competing" school (most notably UIUC and WUSTL),
2. They resent attending a t-14 that lacks Notre Dame's name recognition, or
3. They make unfounded assumptions about the impact of ND's religious affiliations.

Only TLSers in the first category have anything of value to say. If someone has been accepted to both, and chose their school over ND, then what they have to say might be of interest.

09042014
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby 09042014 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:09 pm

arden wrote:I've visited Notre Dame and it is as impressive as everyone says. The professors are approachable, the kids friendly and easy going, the facilities are amazing, and its reputation and alumni networks are phenomenal. Unlike a lot of the top schools they seem to have a rigorous program. Whether that is a good thing or not depends upon what you are looking for.

I didn't go to ND but I really respect what they have. From what I have seen the only ones that speak ill of ND are people that appear to have never visited the school and know nothing about it. They seem to fall into one of three categories:

1. They have ties to a "competing" school (most notably UIUC and WUSTL),
2. They resent attending a t-14 that lacks Notre Dame's name recognition, or
3. They make unfounded assumptions about the impact of ND's religious affiliations.

Only TLSers in the first category have anything of value to say. If someone has been accepted to both, and chose their school over ND, then what they have to say might be of interest.


Look up ND's NLJ250 placement compared to UIUC and WUSTL. They are all within 2%. Seems like all that prestige and alumni network isn't worth much when it comes to hiring. Those schools are peers.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby DerrickRose » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:12 pm

arden wrote: From what I have seen the only ones that speak ill of ND are people that appear to have never visited the school and know nothing about it. They seem to fall into one of three categories:

1. They have ties to a "competing" school (most notably UIUC and WUSTL),
2. [strike]They resent attending a t-14 that lacks Notre Dame's name recognition,[/strike] or
3. They make unfounded assumptions about the impact of ND's religious affiliations.
4. They despise the football team.

Only TLSers in the first category have anything of value to say. If someone has been accepted to both, and chose their school over ND, then what they have to say might be of interest.


ND is a terrific school. But its uniqueness cuts both ways.

And with respect to hiring, it is a peer of Illinois and WUSTL.

arden
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby arden » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:47 pm

Wow, that was fast. OK, I'll play - (1) clerkships, (2) national reach v Chicago. Two stays in, witness desertfox and jnorsky. Four may be a valid addition.

09042014
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby 09042014 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:40 pm

arden wrote:Wow, that was fast. OK, I'll play - (1) clerkships, (2) national reach v Chicago. Two stays in, witness desertfox and jnorsky. Four may be a valid addition.


I'm more of a 1, since I did my undergrad at UIUC.

ND's lay prestige?, NU placed 4 times as many people in big law this year. Might as well let their grandma's be extra proud of them.

Hopefully ND's OCI recovers, and I think it will.

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romothesavior
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:45 pm

Again, money considerations? They are very, very, very similar schools. ND has a bit better lay reputation and better portability on the west coast (or so it seems).

I would pick whichever is cheapest.

Note: I have no interest in IP law and know very little about it. However, judging by the sound of some of the posts on here, it sounds like ND may not be all that strong in IP. Again, I'm not asserting this, but you should do your homework on that before you make a decision, if IP is where you want to end up.

savetheturtles
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby savetheturtles » Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:47 am

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Last edited by savetheturtles on Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby DerrickRose » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:00 pm

savetheturtles wrote:5. People who enrolled at ND/UIUC/WUSTL/etc. in the past few years only to find that their school places as well as a T2 ITE.


Big time false equivalency. They placed the same as a T2 NOT ITE. Its not like the burden of the recession has fallen on one school or group of peer schools in particular. Every school is placing more poorly right now than it was 3-4 years ago. Even Yale. Bashing one school comparatively against another using ITE as your basis is totally illogical.

These schools really are similar and should be chosen based on fit/money.


This is the important thing. ND/Illinois/WUSTL aren't worse relative to the T14 than they were 2, 5, or 15 years ago. But the job opportunities have gone down and the tuition has gone up. It's been my contention that only Yale is worth sticker ITE, and I would be willing to hear opposing arguments even on that point.

Now, if I might troll for a second, assuming a constant price, I would choose Illinois out of those three as I am very Chicago-centric. However, in my experience on this forum, a constant price is very rarely the case. It seems that Illinois is almost always offering the most money (though WUSTL sometimes comes over the top for splitters). Where that is the case, I think they are the clear winner.

09042014
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby 09042014 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:05 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
This is the important thing. ND/Illinois/WUSTL aren't worse relative to the T14 than they were 2, 5, or 15 years ago. But the job opportunities have gone down and the tuition has gone up. It's been my contention that only Yale is worth sticker ITE, and I would be willing to hear opposing arguments even on that point.

Now, if I might troll for a second, assuming a constant price, I would choose Illinois out of those three as I am very Chicago-centric. However, in my experience on this forum, a constant price is very rarely the case. It seems that Illinois is almost always offering the most money (though WUSTL sometimes comes over the top for splitters). Where that is the case, I think they are the clear winner.


I think they are worse relative to the t13 than they were 3 years ago. Big law hiring at UIUC/WUSTL/ND is 1/3 of what it was, while UChi and NU is probably 60% of what it was. Many firms decided to skip OCI at those schools and stay at the t13 only.

savetheturtles
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby savetheturtles » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:34 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
savetheturtles wrote:5. People who enrolled at ND/UIUC/WUSTL/etc. in the past few years only to find that their school places as well as a T2 ITE.


Big time false equivalency. They placed the same as a T2 NOT ITE. Its not like the burden of the recession has fallen on one school or group of peer schools in particular. Every school is placing more poorly right now than it was 3-4 years ago. Even Yale. Bashing one school comparatively against another using ITE as your basis is totally illogical.

Sorry, that was terrible wording on my part. I did mean to say that the schools place as well as t2s used to pre-ITE.

ENGINEERD
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby ENGINEERD » Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:25 pm

I understand that that ND/WUSTL have both been hit hard and also that what ever national prestige ND might have does not compare to that of the T14. Right now I am just trying to make the best of my options. I am confident that I will put in the work to get "good" grades and one day find the job I want in patent law.

After reading all the replies and mulling my decision over I have been leaning towards ND. I am from California and I know that ND is more well known here than WUSTL is. Although Wash U does rank higher, I do not think employers truly hire based on rankings.

I will admit that Wash U does has more opportunities for those interested in IP but I do not think that ND's brand name in CA (compared to Wash U) is worth sacrificing for the opportunity to take a couple more IP classes.

On a side note, many people have advised me to go to UCI over ND. Someone here posted... "I thought the risks outweighed the potential benefits. It will probably turn out to be a great school, but I would be hesitant to risk my legal career on it when you have a guaranteed future at ND." I think this explains my position on UCI perfectly.

In addition I am from the Irvine area and UCI is considered a decent university here but not nearly the same caliber as Notre Dame. For a law a school with no track record or alumni base I think alot of first impressions and perceptions of their new law students will be based off the preconceptions of their undergraduate program and although I agree that UCI will one day be a great school I do not want put in 3 years of extremely hard work only to have employers and coworkers from other institutions look down on me (assuming i find a job in this market and have employers and coworkers). I know that this reasoning is shallow.

Obviously this is just how I feel and I can see why people would still choose UCI (student faculty ratio, weather, experience of building a new school...ect) but to each his own i guess?

thanks for listening to my rant im sure plenty of you are eager to rip apart my thought process so post away...

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romothesavior
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby romothesavior » Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:32 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
This is the important thing. ND/Illinois/WUSTL aren't worse relative to the T14 than they were 2, 5, or 15 years ago. But the job opportunities have gone down and the tuition has gone up. It's been my contention that only Yale is worth sticker ITE, and I would be willing to hear opposing arguments even on that point.

Now, if I might troll for a second, assuming a constant price, I would choose Illinois out of those three as I am very Chicago-centric. However, in my experience on this forum, a constant price is very rarely the case. It seems that Illinois is almost always offering the most money (though WUSTL sometimes comes over the top for splitters). Where that is the case, I think they are the clear winner.


I think they are worse relative to the t13 than they were 3 years ago. Big law hiring at UIUC/WUSTL/ND is 1/3 of what it was, while UChi and NU is probably 60% of what it was. Many firms decided to skip OCI at those schools and stay at the t13 only.


+1. The gap between T14 and the rest of the T30 got bigger ITE.

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stratocophic
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby stratocophic » Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:16 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
This is the important thing. ND/Illinois/WUSTL aren't worse relative to the T14 than they were 2, 5, or 15 years ago. But the job opportunities have gone down and the tuition has gone up. It's been my contention that only Yale is worth sticker ITE, and I would be willing to hear opposing arguments even on that point.

Now, if I might troll for a second, assuming a constant price, I would choose Illinois out of those three as I am very Chicago-centric. However, in my experience on this forum, a constant price is very rarely the case. It seems that Illinois is almost always offering the most money (though WUSTL sometimes comes over the top for splitters). Where that is the case, I think they are the clear winner.


I think they are worse relative to the t13 than they were 3 years ago. Big law hiring at UIUC/WUSTL/ND is 1/3 of what it was, while UChi and NU is probably 60% of what it was. Many firms decided to skip OCI at those schools and stay at the t13 only.

+1. The gap between T14 and the rest of the T30 got bigger ITE.
Too true, with the lone exception of Vandy. T13's not a golden ticket anymore, but at least you're given a parachute instead of a plastic shopping bag (referring to LRAPs, of course) when they push you out of the plane and into employment.

notme
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby notme » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:37 pm

What gap is that? The US News scores have condensed. If you are talking about hiring at NLJ 250, I'd appreciate any link to the graph or other statistical data. Thanks

flcath
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby flcath » Thu May 06, 2010 5:04 am

Desert Fox wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
rickter wrote:IMHO, Notre Dame is one of the most [strike]well known and respected[/strike] overrated universities in the entire world.

This is true, but I'm always mystified when people think being overrated is a bad thing. Hell, I think it's a great thing.

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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby flcath » Thu May 06, 2010 5:11 am

savetheturtles wrote:5. People who enrolled at ND/UIUC/WUSTL/etc. in the past few years only to find that their school places as well as a T2 pre-ITE.

OCI was terrible at all of these schools and a large portion (way more than you would think) at ND have nothing for the summer or are graduating with nothing lined up. The "alumni network" hasn't seem to be helping these people out all that much. As for clerkships, the percentage of students who get those, which will probably be even lower this upcoming year due to the increased competition from T14s, is so low that you can't really bank on that. These schools really are similar and should be chosen based on fit/money.

Hopefully ND's OCI recovers, and I think it will.

I think it will eventually too, but who knows when. There's a small chance things will recover in time for Class of 2013. Things don't look too promising for Class of 2012 right now, and the CSO is being pretty sketch about the bloodbath that happened this past fall, as well as this upcoming one. One of the downsides of a pure lottery bidding system is that while it evens the playing field for the whole class, it also increases the likelihood of the top of the class (those with the best chances of landing a job through OCI) coming away empty handed, because they end up with less interviews. Also, not that many big city firms come to ND to begin with and our main market (CHicago) hit especially hard, so this idea that ND is a "national" school isn't really all that it's cracked up to be.

This (with the DerrickRose correction) is unfortunately pretty fucking credited. No way c/o 2012 recovers, either. Pray for c/o 2013... to this end, it should be noted that ND works hard to please God (Obama invite notwithstanding).

In fairness, it's not all about Biglaw (hold on, I'm going somewhere with this aside from the usual loser talk). You go much lower in the rankings and you start finding below-medians who can't get an AnyLaw job.

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Dr. Strangelove
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Thu May 06, 2010 5:25 am

Both schools are close. Notre Dame has more lay prestige but Wash U is your better bet.

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nyyankees
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby nyyankees » Thu May 06, 2010 7:05 am

i made this decision a few weeks ago. I ended up choosing WUSTL, heres what i posted in the wustl class of 2013 thread

i was offered twice as much to go to ND, and i turned it down. To me Mike Spivey was more impressive than the ND career services officers. He strikes me as a stand up kind of guy who will lace them up and work in the trenches for his students. I like that sort of character and i appreciate his work. Im not sure that directly translates to a job down the line, but he strikes me as the kind of person i work best with, so im very hopeful for the future. That being said, as impressive as his presentation was, the NLJ250 data and other numbers dont exactly support the idea that his work has manifested itself in more opportunities for WUSTL students just yet. Though career services was a big factor in my decision, I think the majority of it had to do with personal preferences for 'soft' factors. The placement numbers and salary data can only get you so far, but i do think a lot of choosing a school should be where you feel comfortable. In this category, WUSTL was head and shoulders above ND for a handful of reasons. I got a chance to sit in on a class at both places, and i felt that WUSTL students were noticeably more intelligent. Maybe that will make it harder to "succeed" but i think it will add to the richness of a classroom discussion or whatever. I just like to know that im in the company of brilliant minds and i felt like that was more the case at WUSTL than ND. Im big on diversity, i think it keeps things interesting and cuz white people suck haha jk jk, but seriously i felt that ND was a touch too homogeneous for me. South Bend struck me as pretty boring. I dont necessarily intend on getting out too much, but it seemed like there was VERY little to do around south bend. Coming from NYC, even stl feels small, but it also feels pretty manageable, interesting and quirky. The city has some character to it, which i like. When i visited both campuses, I felt that i had a better time at WUSTL. I was at ND during their opening round game of march madness, and i sat in the student center and watched the game, and the place was not as fired up as i would expect of them. I went to a school that has a very limited athletic history, so i thought a big d1 program would be full of superfans and crazies and i had to say i was pretty disappointed. Maybe 3 years at wustl will let me keep that ideal of what being a superfan at a major d1 program is like. Maybe its unfair, but i had much lower expectations out of st louis. and much to my surprise i found a very lively city with fun to be had. Also, im a bit of a prestige whore, and i dont think ND will ever get too far above where it currently is ranked whereas i do have faith that WUSTL will climb in the years to come. I come from a banking background so the unemphasizing the financial aspect of this decision was tough for me, but at the end of the day im really happy with my decision and i think its the right spot for me

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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby arden » Thu May 06, 2010 7:51 pm

Maybe it has to do with where you are coming from, but that is definately not the decision I would have made, but to each their own. I will say, however, that I will be highly surprised if ND does not outrank WUSTL by the time you graduate, and that the difference will grow from there. ND, as good as it currently is, appears to me to be a school on the rise, whereas WUSTL is doing everything it can, including gaming the rankings, to maintain their rank. Eventually it will catch up to them and they will have to do something other than buy LSAT scores.

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romothesavior
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Re: Showdown... University of Notre Dame vs WUSTL

Postby romothesavior » Thu May 06, 2010 8:03 pm

arden wrote:Maybe it has to do with where you are coming from, but that is definately not the decision I would have made, but to each their own. I will say, however, that I will be highly surprised if ND does not outrank WUSTL by the time you graduate, and that the difference will grow from there. ND, as good as it currently is, appears to me to be a school on the rise, whereas WUSTL is doing everything it can, including gaming the rankings, to maintain their rank. Eventually it will catch up to them and they will have to do something other than buy LSAT scores.


1. The rankings do not matter. I don't care where WUSTL is ranked relative to ND, because they are peer schools.

2. Even so, this is highly, HIGHLY unlikely to happen. The gap between ND and WUSTL is not getting smaller, and if anything, it appears that WUSTL will pass USC by the time we graduate (they have been gaining on them in recent years.)

3.Again... not this is particularly important. Most people would still say go to USC for California, go to WUSTL for the midwest




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