HELP! Univ. of Washington vs. CU vs. BC Forum

[proconlist]

I'm a long-time lurker on the TLS boards. Like many of you, I am having trouble making a decision now that we've entered the mid-April crunch time. I've been accepted at these three law schools and am completely stuck when trying to figure out which I like best. Financially, I'm looking at sticker price for each, although I am a resident of Colorado so that makes a considerable difference. I've read a number of posts that emphasize the importance of geographical location, which is obviously applicable here- problem is, I have no idea where I'd like to end up after law school (I spent undergrad in Boston- enjoyed it; currently enjoy living in CO; never lived in Seattle but have visited and think I could be happy there). Also, I've visited two of the three and am lacking that "gut instinct" as to which I would be happiest at- no glaring negatives to be had.

While my primary concern is employment post-law school, I am also very interested in quality of life and overall experience. I want to go to a school with a very friendly student body; minimal competition; willing to have a good time outside of class... I dont want it to be a miserable three years, if at all possible.

I'd appreciate any feedback -- thanks!

[Aberzombie1892]

I'm a long-time lurker on the TLS boards. Like many of you, I am having trouble making a decision now that we've entered the mid-April crunch time. I've been accepted at these three law schools and am completely stuck when trying to figure out which I like best. Financially, I'm looking at sticker price for each, although I am a resident of Colorado so that makes a considerable difference. I've read a number of posts that emphasize the importance of geographical location, which is obviously applicable here- problem is, I have no idea where I'd like to end up after law school (I spent undergrad in Boston- enjoyed it; currently enjoy living in CO; never lived in Seattle but have visited and think I could be happy there). Also, I've visited two of the three and am lacking that "gut instinct" as to which I would be happiest at- no glaring negatives to be had.

While my primary concern is employment post-law school, I am also very interested in quality of life and overall experience. I want to go to a school with a very friendly student body; minimal competition; willing to have a good time outside of class... I dont want it to be a miserable three years, if at all possible.

I'd appreciate any feedback -- thanks!

University of Washington.

It blends better prospects than CU with less competition (and cost of BC).

Your ties to MA and CO will allow you to return to those markets post graduation (obviously you can always return, but if you do well - you can return and be competitive for the "good" jobs)

[jcl2]

I'm a long-time lurker on the TLS boards. Like many of you, I am having trouble making a decision now that we've entered the mid-April crunch time. I've been accepted at these three law schools and am completely stuck when trying to figure out which I like best. Financially, I'm looking at sticker price for each, although I am a resident of Colorado so that makes a considerable difference. I've read a number of posts that emphasize the importance of geographical location, which is obviously applicable here- problem is, I have no idea where I'd like to end up after law school (I spent undergrad in Boston- enjoyed it; currently enjoy living in CO; never lived in Seattle but have visited and think I could be happy there). Also, I've visited two of the three and am lacking that "gut instinct" as to which I would be happiest at- no glaring negatives to be had.

While my primary concern is employment post-law school, I am also very interested in quality of life and overall experience. I want to go to a school with a very friendly student body; minimal competition; willing to have a good time outside of class... I dont want it to be a miserable three years, if at all possible.

I'd appreciate any feedback -- thanks!

University of Washington.

It blends better prospects than CU with less competition (and cost of BC).

Your ties to MA and CO will allow you to return to those markets post graduation (obviously you can always return, but if you do well - you can return and be competitive for the "good" jobs)

+ 1

If you were dead set on practicing in CO, I would have said go with CU, but since you aren't, go with UW. Your job prospects will be a little better overall and you can get in-state tuition for your second two years, which I think actually makes UW a slightly cheaper option (close enough that the difference is negligible).

[Informative]

I am leaning towards BC at the moment, but thought I’d give you my comparison of these schools. These are just opinions so don't think they are objective in any way.

Financially, I'm looking at sticker price for each, although I am a resident of Colorado so that makes a considerable difference.

Even with the in-state Colorado tuition, I think BC is worth the extra money. Have you compared BigLaw placement between Colorado/Washington and BC? Even assuming you get biglaw out of Colorado/Washington, spending ten thousand a year more in tuition at BC could lead to a significant return, especially when you consider the market salaries in Colorado/Washington (120-140 1st yr with small increases each year) versus Boston/New York (160k 1st yr with significantly greater increases each year). It is something to consider.

I've read a number of posts that emphasize the importance of geographical location, which is obviously applicable here- problem is, I have no idea where I'd like to end up after law school.

Colorado is great if you want to work in Colorado, and Washington is great if you want to work in Washington. BC has a slightly more national reputation than the other two schools and will probably help you if you decide to live somewhere other than where you went to law school. If you decide to move to DC or New York after law school, BC is going to open more doors than the other two schools. Of course, Washington may do better if you are looking at San Fran and Colorado is going to help you out more if you are looking at…..well, I don’t know that Colorado is really going to travel very far outside of the state. Just an opinion.

I'm also very interested in quality of life and overall experience. I want to go to a school with a very friendly student body; minimal competition; willing to have a good time outside of class... I dont want it to be a miserable three years, if at all possible.

I don't think any of these schools are very competitive and they would all probably have a pretty good experience. Colorado and Washington are in what some consider fly-over country, while BC is in a major market with major law firms recruiting out of the local schools. I personally love to ski, so Colorado would be great. But then again, I like living in a major market, so Boston has the edge there (skiing in New England is pretty bad though). It is really just a gut move and at some point you’ll probably find yourself leaning one way or another.

[kevin261186]

I am leaning towards BC at the moment, but thought I’d give you my comparison of these schools. These are just opinions so don't think they are objective in any way.

Financially, I'm looking at sticker price for each, although I am a resident of Colorado so that makes a considerable difference.

Even with the in-state Colorado tuition, I think BC is worth the extra money. Have you compared BigLaw placement between Colorado/Washington and BC? Even assuming you get biglaw out of Colorado/Washington, spending ten thousand a year more in tuition at BC could lead to a significant return, especially when you consider the market salaries in Colorado/Washington (120-140 1st yr with small increases each year) versus Boston/New York (160k 1st yr with significantly greater increases each year). It is something to consider.

I've read a number of posts that emphasize the importance of geographical location, which is obviously applicable here- problem is, I have no idea where I'd like to end up after law school.

Colorado is great if you want to work in Colorado, and Washington is great if you want to work in Washington. BC has a slightly more national reputation than the other two schools and will probably help you if you decide to live somewhere other than where you went to law school. If you decide to move to DC or New York after law school, BC is going to open more doors than the other two schools. Of course, Washington may do better if you are looking at San Fran and Colorado is going to help you out more if you are looking at…..well, I don’t know that Colorado is really going to travel very far outside of the state. Just an opinion.

I'm also very interested in quality of life and overall experience. I want to go to a school with a very friendly student body; minimal competition; willing to have a good time outside of class... I dont want it to be a miserable three years, if at all possible.

I don't think any of these schools are very competitive and they would all probably have a pretty good experience. Colorado and Washington are in what some consider fly-over country, while BC is in a major market with major law firms recruiting out of the local schools. I personally love to ski, so Colorado would be great. But then again, I like living in a major market, so Boston has the edge there (skiing in New England is pretty bad though). It is really just a gut move and at some point you’ll probably find yourself leaning one way or another.

Incorrect.

[jcl2]

I am leaning towards BC at the moment, but thought I’d give you my comparison of these schools. These are just opinions so don't think they are objective in any way.

Financially, I'm looking at sticker price for each, although I am a resident of Colorado so that makes a considerable difference.

Even with the in-state Colorado tuition, I think BC is worth the extra money. Have you compared BigLaw placement between Colorado/Washington and BC? Even assuming you get biglaw out of Colorado/Washington, spending ten thousand a year more in tuition at BC could lead to a significant return, especially when you consider the market salaries in Colorado/Washington (120-140 1st yr with small increases each year) versus Boston/New York (160k 1st yr with significantly greater increases each year). It is something to consider.

I've read a number of posts that emphasize the importance of geographical location, which is obviously applicable here- problem is, I have no idea where I'd like to end up after law school.

Colorado is great if you want to work in Colorado, and Washington is great if you want to work in Washington. BC has a slightly more national reputation than the other two schools and will probably help you if you decide to live somewhere other than where you went to law school. If you decide to move to DC or New York after law school, BC is going to open more doors than the other two schools. Of course, Washington may do better if you are looking at San Fran and Colorado is going to help you out more if you are looking at…..well, I don’t know that Colorado is really going to travel very far outside of the state. Just an opinion.

I'm also very interested in quality of life and overall experience. I want to go to a school with a very friendly student body; minimal competition; willing to have a good time outside of class... I dont want it to be a miserable three years, if at all possible.

I don't think any of these schools are very competitive and they would all probably have a pretty good experience. Colorado and Washington are in what some consider fly-over country, while BC is in a major market with major law firms recruiting out of the local schools. I personally love to ski, so Colorado would be great. But then again, I like living in a major market, so Boston has the edge there (skiing in New England is pretty bad though). It is really just a gut move and at some point you’ll probably find yourself leaning one way or another.

Incorrect.

Yes, Seattle is one of the places people are often going when flying over Colorado.

edit: in reality, because of the shape of the earth, you wouldn't fly over Colorado when flying between any major east coast and west coast cities, except maybe DC and LA.

[proconlist]

Thanks so much for your responses!

And of course now I'm noticing the leaked rankings and wondering how much to take them into account (BC falls from 26 to 28; UW from 30 to 34; CU moves forward 45 to 38). Words of wisdom on this subject?

[jcl2]

Thanks so much for your responses!

And of course now I'm noticing the leaked rankings and wondering how much to take them into account (BC falls from 26 to 28; UW from 30 to 34; CU moves forward 45 to 38). Words of wisdom on this subject?

I wouldn't put too much stock in them, none of those schools made any significant move and the rankings for schools in the 20-45 range are pretty arbitrary. BC at 28 and UW at 34 are separated by one point, and I think CU is only another point or two below at 38. Schools in that range are so close points wise that tiny changes can result in relatively big changes in ranking. It makes more sense to evaluate the differences between schools in this range by other factors, primarily regional preferences, cost, and job placement. If you are going to take these rankings into account at all you should look at where the schools rank regionally. UW is #1 in the NW and #6 in the West, though only 1 pt behind Davis at #5, and CU is #1 in the Mountain West and tied for #7 in the West, I'm not sure about BC, but I think it is somewhere in the 7-10 range in the NE and 15-20 range for the east in general. FWIW, I think there is a bit of an east coast bias in the rankings because the peer assessment ranking is based off of the response of law school deans and there are more law schools in the east.

[rekopter]

And of course now I'm noticing the leaked rankings and wondering how much to take them into account (BC falls from 26 to 28; UW from 30 to 34; CU moves forward 45 to 38). Words of wisdom on this subject?

Don't take the ranking into account. They just aren't that important.

Have you figured out what your cost of attendance will be at each of the three programs? That's an important consideration.

[fortissimo]

I am leaning towards BC at the moment, but thought I’d give you my comparison of these schools. These are just opinions so don't think they are objective in any way.

Financially, I'm looking at sticker price for each, although I am a resident of Colorado so that makes a considerable difference.

Even with the in-state Colorado tuition, I think BC is worth the extra money. Have you compared BigLaw placement between Colorado/Washington and BC? Even assuming you get biglaw out of Colorado/Washington, spending ten thousand a year more in tuition at BC could lead to a significant return, especially when you consider the market salaries in Colorado/Washington (120-140 1st yr with small increases each year) versus Boston/New York (160k 1st yr with significantly greater increases each year). It is something to consider.

I've read a number of posts that emphasize the importance of geographical location, which is obviously applicable here- problem is, I have no idea where I'd like to end up after law school.

Colorado is great if you want to work in Colorado, and Washington is great if you want to work in Washington. BC has a slightly more national reputation than the other two schools and will probably help you if you decide to live somewhere other than where you went to law school. If you decide to move to DC or New York after law school, BC is going to open more doors than the other two schools. Of course, Washington may do better if you are looking at San Fran and Colorado is going to help you out more if you are looking at…..well, I don’t know that Colorado is really going to travel very far outside of the state. Just an opinion.

I'm also very interested in quality of life and overall experience. I want to go to a school with a very friendly student body; minimal competition; willing to have a good time outside of class... I dont want it to be a miserable three years, if at all possible.

I don't think any of these schools are very competitive and they would all probably have a pretty good experience. Colorado and Washington are in what some consider fly-over country, while BC is in a major market with major law firms recruiting out of the local schools. I personally love to ski, so Colorado would be great. But then again, I like living in a major market, so Boston has the edge there (skiing in New England is pretty bad though). It is really just a gut move and at some point you’ll probably find yourself leaning one way or another.

Incorrect.

Yes, Seattle is one of the places people are often going when flying over Colorado.

edit: in reality, because of the shape of the earth, you wouldn't fly over Colorado when flying between any major east coast and west coast cities, except maybe DC and LA.

Not really contributing, but I had to comment. People consider WA and CO (two of the best states) to be fly-over states? Seriously? hahahahahahahahaha
Seattle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Boston.

[tram988]

If I were you guys I'd focus on the NLJ250 placement and federal clerkship data. BC comes out strong.

As for the rankings, they fluctuate every year and BC has been anywhere from 19-29 since 1987.

[proconlist]

Thanks again for your responses- very helpful. I've roughly figured out cost of attendance for each, but I think its time to focus on more specific numbers.

Best of luck to everyone out there making their decisions!! It's an exciting time, for sure

[yeff]

Are you factoring in in-state tuition at UW after the first year?

[proconlist]

Are you factoring in in-state tuition at UW after the first year?

Yes-- after reading other posts, it seems like students can gain residency (or at least qualify for the residency tuition) after first year, so I've been factoring it in as such. Also am taking into account that CU Law just raised their tuition, making UW more affordable in the long-run (hoping my math is right on that one).

[mirpanda]

Are you factoring in in-state tuition at UW after the first year?

Yes-- after reading other posts, it seems like students can gain residency (or at least qualify for the residency tuition) after first year, so I've been factoring it in as such. Also am taking into account that CU Law just raised their tuition, making UW more affordable in the long-run (hoping my math is right on that one).

What posts are you referencing? I'm interested in applying to UW next cycle, but from what I understand, it is difficult to attain residency while in school.

From the UW website:

WASHINGTON STATE RESIDENCY
Tuition and fees vary depending on whether a student is a resident of Washington or not. To be classified or reclassified as a resident for tuition and fee purposes, a student must establish a bona fide domicile in the state of Washington for purposes other than educational for the period of one year immediately prior to classification as a resident. A nonresident student who is enrolled for more than six credits a quarter will be presumed to be in the state of Washington for primarily educational purposes. Such period of enrollment shall not count toward the establishment of a bona fide domicile of one year in this state, unless the student proves that he or she has, in fact, established a bona fide domicile in this state primarily for purposes other than educational. See for more information -> http://www.washington.edu/students/reg/residency.html

Are the people you are referencing receiving out-of-state tuition waivers, finding a way to prove bona fide domicile for purposes other than educational, or is this merely misinformation?

[jcl2]

Are you factoring in in-state tuition at UW after the first year?

Yes-- after reading other posts, it seems like students can gain residency (or at least qualify for the residency tuition) after first year, so I've been factoring it in as such. Also am taking into account that CU Law just raised their tuition, making UW more affordable in the long-run (hoping my math is right on that one).

What posts are you referencing? I'm interested in applying to UW next cycle, but from what I understand, it is difficult to attain residency while in school.

From the UW website:

WASHINGTON STATE RESIDENCY
Tuition and fees vary depending on whether a student is a resident of Washington or not. To be classified or reclassified as a resident for tuition and fee purposes, a student must establish a bona fide domicile in the state of Washington for purposes other than educational for the period of one year immediately prior to classification as a resident. A nonresident student who is enrolled for more than six credits a quarter will be presumed to be in the state of Washington for primarily educational purposes. Such period of enrollment shall not count toward the establishment of a bona fide domicile of one year in this state, unless the student proves that he or she has, in fact, established a bona fide domicile in this state primarily for purposes other than educational. See for more information -> http://www.washington.edu/students/reg/residency.html

Are the people you are referencing receiving out-of-state tuition waivers, finding a way to prove bona fide domicile for purposes other than educational, or is this merely misinformation?

You can't officially get residency if you are in the state "primarily for educational purposes," but graduate and professional students at UW (actually at all of the state universities, I think) are eligible for a tuition waiver that gives them the equivalent of in-state tuition after their first year. Here is a link explaining it: http://www.washington.edu/students/reg/ ... ional.html

The law school should be more clear about that, there are probably a lot of people making decisions about where to attend without that info.

[mirpanda]

Are you factoring in in-state tuition at UW after the first year?

Yes-- after reading other posts, it seems like students can gain residency (or at least qualify for the residency tuition) after first year, so I've been factoring it in as such. Also am taking into account that CU Law just raised their tuition, making UW more affordable in the long-run (hoping my math is right on that one).

What posts are you referencing? I'm interested in applying to UW next cycle, but from what I understand, it is difficult to attain residency while in school.

From the UW website:

WASHINGTON STATE RESIDENCY
Tuition and fees vary depending on whether a student is a resident of Washington or not. To be classified or reclassified as a resident for tuition and fee purposes, a student must establish a bona fide domicile in the state of Washington for purposes other than educational for the period of one year immediately prior to classification as a resident. A nonresident student who is enrolled for more than six credits a quarter will be presumed to be in the state of Washington for primarily educational purposes. Such period of enrollment shall not count toward the establishment of a bona fide domicile of one year in this state, unless the student proves that he or she has, in fact, established a bona fide domicile in this state primarily for purposes other than educational. See for more information -> http://www.washington.edu/students/reg/residency.html

Are the people you are referencing receiving out-of-state tuition waivers, finding a way to prove bona fide domicile for purposes other than educational, or is this merely misinformation?

You can't officially get residency if you are in the state "primarily for educational purposes," but graduate and professional students at UW (actually at all of the state universities, I think) are eligible for a tuition waiver that gives them the equivalent of in-state tuition after their first year. Here is a link explaining it: http://www.washington.edu/students/reg/ ... ional.html

The law school should be more clear about that, there are probably a lot of people making decisions about where to attend without that info.

That is good to know! Thanks for sharing! TLS should also consider adding that information to its profile for UW ( http://www.top-law-schools.com/washingt ... f-law.html). The difficulty of gaining residency for in-state tuition is mentioned:

It should be noted that, unlike other states in which students can attain residency status after their first year in law school, the University of Washington does not consider those who reside in the state for educational purposes as bona fide residents, and thus is unlikely at any point to grant residency status to students who enter as non-residents.

However, it would be helpful to also mention an available waiver. Otherwise, those who need to study their LR Bible (like me) will read the above and mistakenly conclude that because gaining residency after the first year is unlikely, paying the equivalent of in-state tuition is also unlikely.

Good thing I'm not taking the test until October and have time to improve those LR skills.

(OP, I don't have any real insight to effectively advise anything regarding your dilemma, and I apologize for any thread-jacking. I wish you luck! )

[rekopter]

OP: if you lay out the total cost of attendance for each school we'll be able to give you better advice.

[Informative]

If I were you guys I'd focus on the NLJ250 placement and federal clerkship data.

TITCR.

[proconlist]

OP: if you lay out the total cost of attendance for each school we'll be able to give you better advice.

BC: $58,561
CU: $42,104*
UW: $43,565*

* used average annual tuition vs. actual 1st year tuition for these two schools since I'd be getting residency tuition at UW after year 1 and CU's in-state tuition is different for each year you attend.

And of course I have a sinking feeling that I estimated living expenses on the lower end for Boston- so that number could easily be $60,000.

[jcl2]

If I were you guys I'd focus on the NLJ250 placement and federal clerkship data.

TITCR.

That is not necessarily true in this case, CU and UW will not fare as well in the NLJ250 placement area, though UW is not terrible at about 20% in 2009 http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1. The reason for this is that neither is located in a major legal market and many graduates choose not to leave the region to seek big firm jobs. For example, it is likely the goal of the majority of BU students to find a biglaw job in a major east coast market, that is not the case at CU or UW, most of the students want to stay in the mountain west or northwest respectively. Also, many students at CU and UW end up at mid-sized firms, which exist in medium sized markets like Seattle and Denver and aren't big enough to make the NLJ 250 list, and the graduates of the top regional universities have a good shot at these jobs.

Anyway, BU might place a bigger percent of its class in biglaw than UW, but I bet your actual chance at biglaw from UW, if that is your goal and you are willing to look in all of the major markets, is not that different, BU certainly wouldn't give you any advantage in CA. Also, I would be willing to bet that the opportunities for those not pursuing biglaw are actually better at both UW and CU, because both schools are by far the best in their regions and those regions have far fewer law school graduates per capita than the northeast.

[Informative]

If I were you guys I'd focus on the NLJ250 placement and federal clerkship data.

TITCR.

That is not necessarily true in this case, CU and UW will not fare as well in the NLJ250 placement area, though UW is not terrible at about 20% in 2009 http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1. The reason for this is that neither is located in a major legal market and many graduates choose not to leave the region to seek big firm jobs. For example, it is likely the goal of the majority of BU students to find a biglaw job in a major east coast market, that is not the case at CU or UW, most of the students want to stay in the mountain west or northwest respectively. Also, many students at CU and UW end up at mid-sized firms, which exist in medium sized markets like Seattle and Denver and aren't big enough to make the NLJ 250 list, and the graduates of the top regional universities have a good shot at these jobs.

Anyway, BU might place a bigger percent of its class in biglaw than UW, but I bet your actual chance at biglaw from UW, if that is your goal and you are willing to look in all of the major markets, is not that different, BU certainly wouldn't give you any advantage in CA. Also, I would be willing to bet that the opportunities for those not pursuing biglaw are actually better at both UW and CU, because both schools are by far the best in their regions and those regions have far fewer law school graduates per capita than the northeast.

LOL.

[rekopter]

OP: if you lay out the total cost of attendance for each school we'll be able to give you better advice.

BC: $58,561
CU: $42,104*
UW: $43,565*

* used average annual tuition vs. actual 1st year tuition for these two schools since I'd be getting residency tuition at UW after year 1 and CU's in-state tuition is different for each year you attend.

And of course I have a sinking feeling that I estimated living expenses on the lower end for Boston- so that number could easily be $60,000.

So BC will cost you about $50k more than CU and UW.

For some folks, the better job placement justifies this. For others, it doesn't. I think all three schools are good options. Have you visited any?

[jcl2]

If I were you guys I'd focus on the NLJ250 placement and federal clerkship data.

TITCR.

That is not necessarily true in this case, CU and UW will not fare as well in the NLJ250 placement area, though UW is not terrible at about 20% in 2009 http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1. The reason for this is that neither is located in a major legal market and many graduates choose not to leave the region to seek big firm jobs. For example, it is likely the goal of the majority of BU students to find a biglaw job in a major east coast market, that is not the case at CU or UW, most of the students want to stay in the mountain west or northwest respectively. Also, many students at CU and UW end up at mid-sized firms, which exist in medium sized markets like Seattle and Denver and aren't big enough to make the NLJ 250 list, and the graduates of the top regional universities have a good shot at these jobs.

Anyway, BU might place a bigger percent of its class in biglaw than UW, but I bet your actual chance at biglaw from UW, if that is your goal and you are willing to look in all of the major markets, is not that different, BU certainly wouldn't give you any advantage in CA. Also, I would be willing to bet that the opportunities for those not pursuing biglaw are actually better at both UW and CU, because both schools are by far the best in their regions and those regions have far fewer law school graduates per capita than the northeast.

LOL.

I don't see what you think is funny. I'm sure you think I'm full of shit, but like it or not UW and BU are peer schools, the fact that BU places 34% in NLJ 250 firms and UW places 20% in NLJ firms is not that significant, the difference is pretty clearly explainable by location and self selection of graduates. You also shouldn't go to either school with the expectation of getting a biglaw job, and the lower debt and solid non-biglaw prospects make UW the better choice absent strong regional preferences IMO. I don't know where to find the clerkship data off hand but I doubt there are significant differences between the schools.

[proconlist]

For some folks, the better job placement justifies this. For others, it doesn't. I think all three schools are good options. Have you visited any?

I visited CU on an ASW (I live in Denver) and BC (toured and sat in on class). I'm going to UW at the end of the month to tour and sit in on a class. I was hoping that my time spent at each school would amply assist in my decision-making, but really, can't say that this is the case. I really enjoyed both, but certainly had no lightbulb moment of "THIS IS IT! YOU BELONG HERE!" The current students I met at both schools emphasized quality of life and seemed happy with the sense of community; faculty/staff, great; facilities, good/great (really liked CU); location, manageable (BC is remote, but I could deal).

Not giving you much to work with here, but I didn't come away from either with extreme highs or lows- hence, overall blurring together of good attributes = enjoyable visits.