USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

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Rand M.
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby Rand M. » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:50 am

CEO wrote:
Rand M. wrote:
CEO wrote:I understand there are are some criteria to these rankings like bar passage rate and the alumni's (un)employment level after graduation :wink:

Does anyone know how they weigh the factors to come up with the score and which factors are weighted more heavily?

Thanks!

http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-law-schools/2010/04/15/the-law-school-rankings-methodology.html



Cool!

P.S.
Do you know where to get a break-down of where each law school lies on each component like quality, selectivity, etc?


http://money-law.blogspot.com/2008/08/z ... n-law.html

I haven't seen one for this year, but this is a pretty good breakdown. Z-scores are pretty simple to understand; a bigger number is better. The chart is really small, but you can just save it and then open it and zoom in.

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Dick Whitman
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby Dick Whitman » Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:56 am

mommamia wrote:100% employment. I am pretty sure that even working at McDonald's counts (and not in the legal department). The subject was brought up at a recent ASW I attended.


Anyone who went to Duke Law is much more likely to be working at Goldman Sachs than McDonald's.

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clintonius
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby clintonius » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:34 am

Yeah, especially in this environment when the big banks are hiring record numbers of staff.

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Tangerine Gleam
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:36 am

Legit or not, I think it's pretty surprising that they are literally the only law school with 100% at-graduation employment for its 2008 graduates. It's safe to say they'll make that pretty well-known to anyone who looks into Duke Law in the next year.

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chadwick218
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby chadwick218 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:25 pm

I think that Duke is greatly benefit by their small class size (~210), which is unlike another T14 that seems to whore itself out to transfer and other academic programs thereby increasing its 1L class from 245 to 310 come 2L year.

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby quickquestionthanks » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:57 am

soullesswonder wrote:http://www.law.duke.edu/news/story?id=4826&u=11

Duke's not backing down, and FWIW, the process described in this article is almost exactly what I was told at ASW. Duke mobilized just about everyone to make sure their grads had jobs.


That's awesome. Go USNWR rankings! Apparently they're not entirely deleterious.

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im_blue
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby im_blue » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:25 am

quickquestionthanks wrote:
soullesswonder wrote:http://www.law.duke.edu/news/story?id=4826&u=11

Duke's not backing down, and FWIW, the process described in this article is almost exactly what I was told at ASW. Duke mobilized just about everyone to make sure their grads had jobs.


That's awesome. Go USNWR rankings! Apparently they're not entirely deleterious.

I was surprised that almost all these jobs either require or prefer a JD, too.

yeff
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby yeff » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:40 pm

Isn't offering their students an 8-12 week fellowship gaming the system a bit?

Totally a good thing to do, but...not the same as real full-time employment, since they are continuing their job searches, yeah?

100% employment: Meeting a lofty goal

Of course, every year there is a small number of students for whom the desired jobs don’t work out, or who are planning to launch their careers in government, public interest agencies, small firms, or businesses that do not typically hire applicants until after they have passed the bar exam (summer bar exam results are not available until the late summer or fall following graduation). So how does Duke help them make the transition to practice?

“Two years ago we saw that more of our students wanted to commit to public service careers or pursue more unique paths,” Elvin said. “This is of course something we want to encourage and support and expand. But we knew that they needed to work in the interim to continue to build skills, develop professional relationships, enhance references, and have a substantive platform from which to pursue their full-time goals. As the saying goes, ‘You need a job to get a job.’ We also wanted to provide more help to those students who were still trying to determine their path or who hadn’t found the full-time job they hoped for.”

To that end, the Career Center launched the Bridge to Practice program, which offers an eight- to 12-week fellowship in a variety of legal positions. Graduates are paid a stipend, usually supported by alumni contributions, gain on-the-ground experience, and strengthen their lawyering skills. They also work throughout their fellowship with career counselors and mentors to continue their searches.

Students may apply for fellowships in late spring; securing a position before graduation allows them to focus on studying for the bar during the summer with a little less worry, Elvin added.

“When we approached employers with the idea, they were thrilled,” Elvin said. “Often these are some of our best students, so the chance to have those extra hands for eight weeks is very attractive.”

Since 2008, Bridge to Practice fellows have worked in positions around the country, with nonprofit and advocacy organizations, district attorneys offices, law firms, and courts. Fellowships provide a springboard to other positions and, in some cases, convert into permanent positions with the host employer.

"Through the Bridge to Practice, I was able to continue working on cases and prepare for one of my DA interviews, where I was asked to ‘run the courtroom,'" said Kyle Pousson '08, whose fellowship led to a permanent position with the Durham County District Attorney's Office. "Because the office knew me well and I was working there before and after my bar studies, I was in a great position to become an ADA once I had passed the bar."

pelmen74
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby pelmen74 » Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:18 pm

yeff wrote:Isn't offering their students an 8-12 week fellowship gaming the system a bit?

Totally a good thing to do, but...not the same as real full-time employment, since they are continuing their job searches, yeah?

100% employment: Meeting a lofty goal

Of course, every year there is a small number of students for whom the desired jobs don’t work out, or who are planning to launch their careers in government, public interest agencies, small firms, or businesses that do not typically hire applicants until after they have passed the bar exam (summer bar exam results are not available until the late summer or fall following graduation). So how does Duke help them make the transition to practice?

“Two years ago we saw that more of our students wanted to commit to public service careers or pursue more unique paths,” Elvin said. “This is of course something we want to encourage and support and expand. But we knew that they needed to work in the interim to continue to build skills, develop professional relationships, enhance references, and have a substantive platform from which to pursue their full-time goals. As the saying goes, ‘You need a job to get a job.’ We also wanted to provide more help to those students who were still trying to determine their path or who hadn’t found the full-time job they hoped for.”

To that end, the Career Center launched the Bridge to Practice program, which offers an eight- to 12-week fellowship in a variety of legal positions. Graduates are paid a stipend, usually supported by alumni contributions, gain on-the-ground experience, and strengthen their lawyering skills. They also work throughout their fellowship with career counselors and mentors to continue their searches.

Students may apply for fellowships in late spring; securing a position before graduation allows them to focus on studying for the bar during the summer with a little less worry, Elvin added.

“When we approached employers with the idea, they were thrilled,” Elvin said. “Often these are some of our best students, so the chance to have those extra hands for eight weeks is very attractive.”

Since 2008, Bridge to Practice fellows have worked in positions around the country, with nonprofit and advocacy organizations, district attorneys offices, law firms, and courts. Fellowships provide a springboard to other positions and, in some cases, convert into permanent positions with the host employer.

"Through the Bridge to Practice, I was able to continue working on cases and prepare for one of my DA interviews, where I was asked to ‘run the courtroom,'" said Kyle Pousson '08, whose fellowship led to a permanent position with the Durham County District Attorney's Office. "Because the office knew me well and I was working there before and after my bar studies, I was in a great position to become an ADA once I had passed the bar."


Yes, I'm sure that that helps the rankings, but I highly doubt that they created the fellowship program specifically for the USNWR....

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T14_Scholly
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby T14_Scholly » Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:55 am

pelmen74 wrote:
yeff wrote:Isn't offering their students an 8-12 week fellowship gaming the system a bit?

Totally a good thing to do, but...not the same as real full-time employment, since they are continuing their job searches, yeah?

100% employment: Meeting a lofty goal

Of course, every year there is a small number of students for whom the desired jobs don’t work out, or who are planning to launch their careers in government, public interest agencies, small firms, or businesses that do not typically hire applicants until after they have passed the bar exam (summer bar exam results are not available until the late summer or fall following graduation). So how does Duke help them make the transition to practice?

“Two years ago we saw that more of our students wanted to commit to public service careers or pursue more unique paths,” Elvin said. “This is of course something we want to encourage and support and expand. But we knew that they needed to work in the interim to continue to build skills, develop professional relationships, enhance references, and have a substantive platform from which to pursue their full-time goals. As the saying goes, ‘You need a job to get a job.’ We also wanted to provide more help to those students who were still trying to determine their path or who hadn’t found the full-time job they hoped for.”

To that end, the Career Center launched the Bridge to Practice program, which offers an eight- to 12-week fellowship in a variety of legal positions. Graduates are paid a stipend, usually supported by alumni contributions, gain on-the-ground experience, and strengthen their lawyering skills. They also work throughout their fellowship with career counselors and mentors to continue their searches.

Students may apply for fellowships in late spring; securing a position before graduation allows them to focus on studying for the bar during the summer with a little less worry, Elvin added.

“When we approached employers with the idea, they were thrilled,” Elvin said. “Often these are some of our best students, so the chance to have those extra hands for eight weeks is very attractive.”

Since 2008, Bridge to Practice fellows have worked in positions around the country, with nonprofit and advocacy organizations, district attorneys offices, law firms, and courts. Fellowships provide a springboard to other positions and, in some cases, convert into permanent positions with the host employer.

"Through the Bridge to Practice, I was able to continue working on cases and prepare for one of my DA interviews, where I was asked to ‘run the courtroom,'" said Kyle Pousson '08, whose fellowship led to a permanent position with the Durham County District Attorney's Office. "Because the office knew me well and I was working there before and after my bar studies, I was in a great position to become an ADA once I had passed the bar."


Yes, I'm sure that that helps the rankings, but I highly doubt that they created the fellowship program specifically for the USNWR....



Right. You believe Duke had 100% employment because they mobilized their alumni network?

EDIT: Thinking about it a little more, a "bridge to practice fellowship" sounds like the biggest pile of horse dung I have ever heard of. Let's see here. Duke noticed that some of their graduates were "choosing" career paths that meant they wouldn't get hired until after they passed the bar. The Duke admin. decided that they loved these students so much, they were going to give them a stipend and further training! Hmmm............

I'd be very interested to find out how many of Duke's 08 grads got the bridge to practice fellowship.

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danquayle
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby danquayle » Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:03 pm

pelmen74 wrote:
yeff wrote:Isn't offering their students an 8-12 week fellowship gaming the system a bit?

Totally a good thing to do, but...not the same as real full-time employment, since they are continuing their job searches, yeah?

100% employment: Meeting a lofty goal

Of course, every year there is a small number of students for whom the desired jobs don’t work out, or who are planning to launch their careers in government, public interest agencies, small firms, or businesses that do not typically hire applicants until after they have passed the bar exam (summer bar exam results are not available until the late summer or fall following graduation). So how does Duke help them make the transition to practice?

“Two years ago we saw that more of our students wanted to commit to public service careers or pursue more unique paths,” Elvin said. “This is of course something we want to encourage and support and expand. But we knew that they needed to work in the interim to continue to build skills, develop professional relationships, enhance references, and have a substantive platform from which to pursue their full-time goals. As the saying goes, ‘You need a job to get a job.’ We also wanted to provide more help to those students who were still trying to determine their path or who hadn’t found the full-time job they hoped for.”

To that end, the Career Center launched the Bridge to Practice program, which offers an eight- to 12-week fellowship in a variety of legal positions. Graduates are paid a stipend, usually supported by alumni contributions, gain on-the-ground experience, and strengthen their lawyering skills. They also work throughout their fellowship with career counselors and mentors to continue their searches.

Students may apply for fellowships in late spring; securing a position before graduation allows them to focus on studying for the bar during the summer with a little less worry, Elvin added.

“When we approached employers with the idea, they were thrilled,” Elvin said. “Often these are some of our best students, so the chance to have those extra hands for eight weeks is very attractive.”

Since 2008, Bridge to Practice fellows have worked in positions around the country, with nonprofit and advocacy organizations, district attorneys offices, law firms, and courts. Fellowships provide a springboard to other positions and, in some cases, convert into permanent positions with the host employer.

"Through the Bridge to Practice, I was able to continue working on cases and prepare for one of my DA interviews, where I was asked to ‘run the courtroom,'" said Kyle Pousson '08, whose fellowship led to a permanent position with the Durham County District Attorney's Office. "Because the office knew me well and I was working there before and after my bar studies, I was in a great position to become an ADA once I had passed the bar."


Yes, I'm sure that that helps the rankings, but I highly doubt that they created the fellowship program specifically for the USNWR....


Of course they did. Indiana did the exact same thing.

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los blancos
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby los blancos » Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:06 pm

danquayle wrote:Of course they did. Indiana did the exact same thing.


Except it hasn't really helped Duke in the rankings.

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General Tso
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby General Tso » Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:09 pm

los blancos wrote:
danquayle wrote:Of course they did. Indiana did the exact same thing.


Except it hasn't really helped Duke in the rankings.


Overstating employment at graduation by 10% would equal 0.4 additional raw points

pelmen74
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby pelmen74 » Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:30 pm

swheat wrote:
los blancos wrote:
danquayle wrote:Of course they did. Indiana did the exact same thing.


Except it hasn't really helped Duke in the rankings.


Overstating employment at graduation by 10% would equal 0.4 additional raw points


How about the 15% acceptance rates for UVA and Penn. If it wasnt for the ridiculous levels of yield protection these numbers would increase upwards of 25%.

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clintonius
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby clintonius » Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:33 pm

And poor NYU pioneered the process of gaming admissions stats with their dime/dozen fee waivers. Fat lot of good it did them this year.

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los blancos
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby los blancos » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:28 am

swheat wrote:
los blancos wrote:
danquayle wrote:Of course they did. Indiana did the exact same thing.


Except it hasn't really helped Duke in the rankings.


Overstating employment at graduation by 10% would equal 0.4 additional raw points


And no school in the T20 except for WashU has below a 90% employment rate at graduation. Duke's peers are all at 96% or above.

If Dook is trying to game the rankings, it should adopt UVa's admissions tactics, not create a program so they can overstate employment by 1 or 2%.

(this is assuming you weren't sarcastically making the same point I was)

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Tangerine Gleam
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:27 am

Check out Leiter's newest blog post about the rankings -- especially the self-reported employment info.

http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2010/04/move-over-ripley-bob-morses-believe-it-or-not.html

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General Tso
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby General Tso » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:58 am

Tangerine Gleam wrote:Check out Leiter's newest blog post about the rankings -- especially the self-reported employment info.

http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2010/04/move-over-ripley-bob-morses-believe-it-or-not.html


It's nice to know that I am not the only one who thinks Davis shouldn't be outplacing Boalt. (and Yale too, btw)

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T14_Scholly
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby T14_Scholly » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:31 pm

los blancos wrote:
swheat wrote:
los blancos wrote:
danquayle wrote:Of course they did. Indiana did the exact same thing.


Except it hasn't really helped Duke in the rankings.


Overstating employment at graduation by 10% would equal 0.4 additional raw points


And no school in the T20 except for WashU has below a 90% employment rate at graduation. Duke's peers are all at 96% or above.

If Dook is trying to game the rankings, it should adopt UVa's admissions tactics, not create a program so they can overstate employment by 1 or 2%.

(this is assuming you weren't sarcastically making the same point I was)


You think the bridge to practice program is legit?

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los blancos
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby los blancos » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:49 pm

T14_Scholly wrote:
You think the bridge to practice program is legit?



What's the definition of 'legit'? Do I think that maybe using it to report 100% employment is spurious? Yeah, probably. Is that their intention? I doubt it. It's simply not worth paying people to get like 3% more employment that's not going to affect your rank regardless.

But who gives a flying fuck?

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danquayle
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby danquayle » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:15 pm

los blancos wrote:
T14_Scholly wrote:
You think the bridge to practice program is legit?



What's the definition of 'legit'? Do I think that maybe using it to report 100% employment is spurious? Yeah, probably. Is that their intention? I doubt it. It's simply not worth paying people to get like 3% more employment that's not going to affect your rank regardless.

But who gives a flying fuck?


But don't you think they're going to market the hell out of that 100% like its legit?

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los blancos
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby los blancos » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:45 pm

danquayle wrote:
los blancos wrote:
T14_Scholly wrote:
You think the bridge to practice program is legit?



What's the definition of 'legit'? Do I think that maybe using it to report 100% employment is spurious? Yeah, probably. Is that their intention? I doubt it. It's simply not worth paying people to get like 3% more employment that's not going to affect your rank regardless.

But who gives a flying fuck?


But don't you think they're going to market the hell out of that 100% like its legit?


I'm probably going to Duke next year and I didn't even know about it until it was brought up in this thread, so if they've been marketing it, they've been doing a piss-poor job at it. Apparently they've had this 100% employment thing for like 5 out of the last 6 years or something. I don't think it really matters too much when their peers are at 96%+. No one assumes they're going to be the 4% unemployed. All it takes is just to look at YLS's number to realize that this statistic is useless a lot of the time. People who get into T14s are smarter than "wtf z0mg lulz Dook haz 100% and Michigan has 96% i put deposit down at dook hahaha wtf lulz michigan sux".

Also, that Bridge to Practice program probably closes a good portion of the gap, but I wouldn't be surprised if Duke would still be at a slightly higher number than its peers without it, due primarily to its class size (though I've also heard that their career services dept is very good at what they do). Does it really matter? No.

Tofu
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby Tofu » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:03 am

los blancos wrote:People who get into T14s are smarter than "wtf z0mg lulz Dook haz 100% and Michigan has 96% i put deposit down at dook hahaha wtf lulz michigan sux".


i'd guess that at least one person will choose duke because of that :(

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danquayle
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby danquayle » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:38 am

los blancos wrote:
danquayle wrote:
los blancos wrote:
T14_Scholly wrote:
You think the bridge to practice program is legit?



What's the definition of 'legit'? Do I think that maybe using it to report 100% employment is spurious? Yeah, probably. Is that their intention? I doubt it. It's simply not worth paying people to get like 3% more employment that's not going to affect your rank regardless.

But who gives a flying fuck?


But don't you think they're going to market the hell out of that 100% like its legit?


I'm probably going to Duke next year and I didn't even know about it until it was brought up in this thread, so if they've been marketing it, they've been doing a piss-poor job at it. Apparently they've had this 100% employment thing for like 5 out of the last 6 years or something. I don't think it really matters too much when their peers are at 96%+. No one assumes they're going to be the 4% unemployed. All it takes is just to look at YLS's number to realize that this statistic is useless a lot of the time. People who get into T14s are smarter than "wtf z0mg lulz Dook haz 100% and Michigan has 96% i put deposit down at dook hahaha wtf lulz michigan sux".

Also, that Bridge to Practice program probably closes a good portion of the gap, but I wouldn't be surprised if Duke would still be at a slightly higher number than its peers without it, due primarily to its class size (though I've also heard that their career services dept is very good at what they do). Does it really matter? No.


Well, its only on the front page of their website...

And its only been what... a weak since the rankings came out.

I'm not saying I fault them for the program. But its silly to think Duke is "beyond" a little gaming.

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PDaddy
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby PDaddy » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:28 am

danquayle wrote:
Well, its only on the front page of their website...

And its only been what... a weak since the rankings came out.

I'm not saying I fault them for the program. But its silly to think Duke is "beyond" a little gaming.


LOL @ "weak". These rankings are weak. They are meaningless.




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