USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

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smartblonde87
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby smartblonde87 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:06 pm

PhantaManta wrote:Damn! I pass hudson news at GC like every day... The glory could have been mine!



+1

lol

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Tangerine Gleam
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:30 pm

I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.

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danquayle
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby danquayle » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:01 pm

Tangerine Gleam wrote:I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.


Yeah, any of those 100% is suspicious, regardless of metric. Only Wisconsin's 100% bar passage is believable.

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Rand M.
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby Rand M. » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm

Tangerine Gleam wrote:I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.


I really think that if this is going to be allowed to continue then USNWR should just go ahead and scrap the metric all together. All it does is allow 'inferior' schools to close the gap by having a metric in which they can tie/come close to the better schools. It's kind of crazy to imagine the rankings with no employment component, so the real fix to this problem is to make it an actual measure.

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danquayle
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby danquayle » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:06 pm

Rand M. wrote:
Tangerine Gleam wrote:I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.


I really think that if this is going to be allowed to continue then USNWR should just go ahead and scrap the metric all together. All it does is allow 'inferior' schools to close the gap by having a metric in which they can tie/come close to the better schools. It's kind of crazy to imagine the rankings with no employment component, so the real fix to this problem is to make it an actual measure.


Yeah, its really the only thing that should matter to prospective students and yet its the easiest to manipulate.

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Unitas
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby Unitas » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:22 pm

danquayle wrote:
Rand M. wrote:
Tangerine Gleam wrote:I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.


I really think that if this is going to be allowed to continue then USNWR should just go ahead and scrap the metric all together. All it does is allow 'inferior' schools to close the gap by having a metric in which they can tie/come close to the better schools. It's kind of crazy to imagine the rankings with no employment component, so the real fix to this problem is to make it an actual measure.


Yeah, its really the only thing that should matter to prospective students and yet its the easiest to manipulate.


Why doesn't the bar just track where each lawyer is employed?? They track which school you went too, why not just have to update them on job changes or lack of a job. Then they can report it to everyone.... Wouldn't be a really easy solution to this huge problem.

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Unitas
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby Unitas » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:22 pm

danquayle wrote:
Rand M. wrote:
Tangerine Gleam wrote:I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.


I really think that if this is going to be allowed to continue then USNWR should just go ahead and scrap the metric all together. All it does is allow 'inferior' schools to close the gap by having a metric in which they can tie/come close to the better schools. It's kind of crazy to imagine the rankings with no employment component, so the real fix to this problem is to make it an actual measure.


Yeah, its really the only thing that should matter to prospective students and yet its the easiest to manipulate.


Why doesn't the bar just track where each lawyer is employed?? They track which school you went too, why not just make it mandatory to update them on any job changes or lack of a job. Then they can report it to everyone.... Wouldn't that be a really easy solution to this huge problem?

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Rand M.
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby Rand M. » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:23 pm

Unitas wrote:
danquayle wrote:
Rand M. wrote:
Tangerine Gleam wrote:I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.


I really think that if this is going to be allowed to continue then USNWR should just go ahead and scrap the metric all together. All it does is allow 'inferior' schools to close the gap by having a metric in which they can tie/come close to the better schools. It's kind of crazy to imagine the rankings with no employment component, so the real fix to this problem is to make it an actual measure.


Yeah, its really the only thing that should matter to prospective students and yet its the easiest to manipulate.


Why doesn't the bar just track where each lawyer is employed?? They track which school you went too, why not just make it mandatory to update them on any job changes or lack of a job. Then they can report it to everyone.... Wouldn't that be a really easy solution to this huge problem?


I problem with that is that I think we are the only one's who care. For some reason the top schools don't seem all that interested in creating even more separation than there already is; if they did care they would fight it.

mommamia
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby mommamia » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:28 pm

100% employment. I am pretty sure that even working at McDonald's counts (and not in the legal department). The subject was brought up at a recent ASW I attended.

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Rand M.
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby Rand M. » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:32 pm

mommamia wrote:100% employment. I am pretty sure that even working at McDonald's counts (and not in the legal department). The subject was brought up at a recent ASW I attended.


Even if you were to count all sorts of jobs that still doesn't explain how absolutely no one in their class went on to get another degree; really? No one in the class is independently wealthy? There are just too many factors that can intervene for a school to EVER report out full employment. Not a single LLM in the bunch? No Phds?

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Unitas
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby Unitas » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:34 pm

Rand M. wrote:
Unitas wrote:Why doesn't the bar just track where each lawyer is employed?? They track which school you went too, why not just make it mandatory to update them on any job changes or lack of a job. Then they can report it to everyone.... Wouldn't that be a really easy solution to this huge problem?


I problem with that is that I think we are the only one's who care. For some reason the top schools don't seem all that interested in creating even more separation than there already is; if they did care they would fight it.


I mean, I don't get why not. They would all be on equal ground if everyone had to be honest. ABA should track legal employment anyhow, there really is no reason against it.

I don't mean McDonald's burger flipping jobs either. They would have to be jobs that require or are made better by a JD. Maybe even should include salary and bonus. Haha, but then students would be encouraged to estimate high bonuses. Lovely.

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jl2032
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby jl2032 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:41 pm

I'm sure any of us could find a way to get to 100%...

It means that those who want jobs have jobs.

If I find an alumna who doesn't have a job, I take it to mean that they aren't looking for a job, and so I wouldn't count them in the statistics. Some might be going on to pursue other interests, degrees, etc. The rest... well, if they wanted a job they'd find one flipping burgers. They must not want a job.

It's more like how the government defines unemployment - those who are actively seeking jobs and don't have one.

See, easy 100%

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aIvin adams
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby aIvin adams » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:46 pm

Rand M. wrote:
mommamia wrote:100% employment. I am pretty sure that even working at McDonald's counts (and not in the legal department). The subject was brought up at a recent ASW I attended.


Even if you were to count all sorts of jobs that still doesn't explain how absolutely no one in their class went on to get another degree; really? No one in the class is independently wealthy? There are just too many factors that can intervene for a school to EVER report out full employment. Not a single LLM in the bunch? No Phds?


i think usnwr stopped counting unemployed who were not seeking employment or who are continuing formal education

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danquayle
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby danquayle » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:12 pm

jl2032 wrote:I'm sure any of us could find a way to get to 100%...

It means that those who want jobs have jobs.

If I find an alumna who doesn't have a job, I take it to mean that they aren't looking for a job, and so I wouldn't count them in the statistics. Some might be going on to pursue other interests, degrees, etc. The rest... well, if they wanted a job they'd find one flipping burgers. They must not want a job.

It's more like how the government defines unemployment - those who are actively seeking jobs and don't have one.

See, easy 100%


You don't think you should count someone actively seeking only a legal job? For any career really, but especially legal, taking a poor first job can slot you into a shaky career early on...

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jl2032
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby jl2032 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:39 pm

danquayle wrote:
jl2032 wrote:I'm sure any of us could find a way to get to 100%...

It means that those who want jobs have jobs.

If I find an alumna who doesn't have a job, I take it to mean that they aren't looking for a job, and so I wouldn't count them in the statistics. Some might be going on to pursue other interests, degrees, etc. The rest... well, if they wanted a job they'd find one flipping burgers. They must not want a job.

It's more like how the government defines unemployment - those who are actively seeking jobs and don't have one.

See, easy 100%


You don't think you should count someone actively seeking only a legal job? For any career really, but especially legal, taking a poor first job can slot you into a shaky career early on...


my post wasn't meant to be taken seriously... i guess tone doesn't come across well online...

of course, i think we should count legal employment only... i'm just saying it's easy to play with numbers like this...

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danquayle
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby danquayle » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:08 pm

jl2032 wrote:
danquayle wrote:You don't think you should count someone actively seeking only a legal job? For any career really, but especially legal, taking a poor first job can slot you into a shaky career early on...


my post wasn't meant to be taken seriously... i guess tone doesn't come across well online...

of course, i think we should count legal employment only... i'm just saying it's easy to play with numbers like this...


It was just this part:

jl2032 wrote:
If I find an alumna who doesn't have a job, I take it to mean that they aren't looking for a job


As if you met someone from (what is it, Columbia?) that didn't have a law job you'd think you just weren't trying... I don't see many Columbia grads taking up work as a cab driver if they don't have an offer coming out. Of course, that'd be a story to tell the customers. Prob get booku tips.

Edit: Then again, from Columbia... maybe it would be safe to say an unemployed alum isn't trying too hard

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jl2032
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby jl2032 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:18 pm

danquayle wrote:
jl2032 wrote:
danquayle wrote:You don't think you should count someone actively seeking only a legal job? For any career really, but especially legal, taking a poor first job can slot you into a shaky career early on...


my post wasn't meant to be taken seriously... i guess tone doesn't come across well online...

of course, i think we should count legal employment only... i'm just saying it's easy to play with numbers like this...


It was just this part:

jl2032 wrote:
If I find an alumna who doesn't have a job, I take it to mean that they aren't looking for a job


As if you met someone from (what is it, Columbia?) that didn't have a law job you'd think you just weren't trying... I don't see many Columbia grads taking up work as a cab driver if they don't have an offer coming out. Of course, that'd be a story to tell the customers. Prob get booku tips.

Edit: Then again, from Columbia... maybe it would be safe to say an unemployed alum isn't trying too hard


My entire post wasn't serious... I'm just saying that you could take a real extreme view and rationalize excluding everyone who isn't employed to get to 100%

"it depends on what your definition of 'is' is."

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danquayle
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby danquayle » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:20 pm

jl2032 wrote:
danquayle wrote:
jl2032 wrote:
danquayle wrote:You don't think you should count someone actively seeking only a legal job? For any career really, but especially legal, taking a poor first job can slot you into a shaky career early on...


my post wasn't meant to be taken seriously... i guess tone doesn't come across well online...

of course, i think we should count legal employment only... i'm just saying it's easy to play with numbers like this...


It was just this part:

jl2032 wrote:
If I find an alumna who doesn't have a job, I take it to mean that they aren't looking for a job


As if you met someone from (what is it, Columbia?) that didn't have a law job you'd think you just weren't trying... I don't see many Columbia grads taking up work as a cab driver if they don't have an offer coming out. Of course, that'd be a story to tell the customers. Prob get booku tips.

Edit: Then again, from Columbia... maybe it would be safe to say an unemployed alum isn't trying too hard


My entire post wasn't serious... I'm just saying that you could take a real extreme view and rationalize excluding everyone who isn't employed to get to 100%

"it depends on what your definition of 'is' is."


Uh, Res ipsa loquitur?

Just kidding. I don't even know what that means.

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CEO
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby CEO » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:07 pm

I understand there are are some criteria to these rankings like bar passage rate and the alumni's (un)employment level after graduation :wink:

Does anyone know how they weigh the factors to come up with the score and which factors are weighted more heavily?

Thanks!

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Rand M.
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby Rand M. » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:09 pm

CEO wrote:I understand there are are some criteria to these rankings like bar passage rate and the alumni's (un)employment level after graduation :wink:

Does anyone know how they weigh the factors to come up with the score and which factors are weighted more heavily?

Thanks!

http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-law-schools/2010/04/15/the-law-school-rankings-methodology.html

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los blancos
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby los blancos » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:14 pm

Rand M. wrote:
mommamia wrote:100% employment. I am pretty sure that even working at McDonald's counts (and not in the legal department). The subject was brought up at a recent ASW I attended.


Even if you were to count all sorts of jobs that still doesn't explain how absolutely no one in their class went on to get another degree; really? No one in the class is independently wealthy? There are just too many factors that can intervene for a school to EVER report out full employment. Not a single LLM in the bunch? No Phds?



FWIW the really small class size might help produce something seemingly improbable like this.

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General Tso
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby General Tso » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:16 pm

Tangerine Gleam wrote:I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.


Dude you better get some hard evidence that it's false. The TLS police (*ahem* SBL *ahem*) will not allow you make allegations you can't back up with facts.

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CEO
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby CEO » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:37 pm

Rand M. wrote:
CEO wrote:I understand there are are some criteria to these rankings like bar passage rate and the alumni's (un)employment level after graduation :wink:

Does anyone know how they weigh the factors to come up with the score and which factors are weighted more heavily?

Thanks!

http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-law-schools/2010/04/15/the-law-school-rankings-methodology.html



Cool!

P.S.
Do you know where to get a break-down of where each law school lies on each component like quality, selectivity, etc?

pelmen74
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby pelmen74 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:00 am

Rand M. wrote:
mommamia wrote:100% employment. I am pretty sure that even working at McDonald's counts (and not in the legal department). The subject was brought up at a recent ASW I attended.


Even if you were to count all sorts of jobs that still doesn't explain how absolutely no one in their class went on to get another degree; really? No one in the class is independently wealthy? There are just too many factors that can intervene for a school to EVER report out full employment. Not a single LLM in the bunch? No Phds?



"The employment rates for 2008 graduating class determine success in this category. Graduates who are working or pursuing graduate degrees are considered employed." From the USNWR methodology page.... At least that much is not fudged.

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soullesswonder
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously

Postby soullesswonder » Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:36 am

http://www.law.duke.edu/news/story?id=4826&u=11

Duke's not backing down, and FWIW, the process described in this article is almost exactly what I was told at ASW. Duke mobilized just about everyone to make sure their grads had jobs.




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