USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously Forum

[mepg]

Does anyone know how ASU managed to jump so many spots and overcame Arizona in the rankings? What statistically does ASU have that makes it so much different than last year? Can anyone explain this without posting a picture of ASU cheerleaders?

I am a 1L at ASU. Statistically, we have the strongest class the law school has seen, ASU has great student/faculty ratio, and and perhaps USWNR finally realized that Phoenix is a better place than Tucson to launch a legal career. Really I think the rankings just affirm that ASU and UA are very equal schools.

Ummm...last time I checked "location" is not one of the criteria used in the USNWR rankings. Employment at a graduation was a pretty big difference between the two schools (ASU 90%, UA 77%). I've written in other threads that I find it hard to believe that two very similar schools have such disparate employment at graduation rates. I think this speaks to manipulation of data that goes on behind the scenes. I agree with mepg that the schools are pretty equal.

Still, look at the NLJ 250 statistics or judicial clerkship placements and you'll see that UA is head and shoulders above ASU.

I will not dispute that ASU may have found a way to boost the employment numbers (our new dean has great hopes for the school so more power to him for finally getting us past UA in the rankings). I was getting at that perhaps ASU has decent employment numbers at graduation because they are in Phoenix. I can tell you that it is much easier to network/interview when you are 15 minutes from most firms and government positions versus having to drive over 2 hours. Since only a 1/3 of UA students stay in Tucson to work, that leaves 2/3 of the student body scrambling to find employment in Phoenix and out of state (which if you don't have something by 3L year means it will be much more difficult than being in the city where you want to work). UA and ASU have very close employment statistics after 9 months (gives people in Tucson time to find jobs). I have nothing negative to say about UA as a school; I had a tough choice choosing between the two. I just know that there is a lot more leg work for finding opportunities when in Tucson (not to mention re-locating over every break) than in Phoenix (I have friends in UA who are up in Phoenix all of the time and who will be relocating for the summer).

So while UA has some advantages, ASU has some advantages too....which is why the schools are only 4 spots apart.

[sibley]

so are the rankings out yet? was the leak real? I mean it looked real, but was it?

[audrey hepburn]

so are the rankings out yet? was the leak real? I mean it looked real, but was it?

yes the rankings are real..check out usnews.com

[Padimud]

Does anyone know how ASU managed to jump so many spots and overcame Arizona in the rankings? What statistically does ASU have that makes it so much different than last year? Can anyone explain this without posting a picture of ASU cheerleaders?

I am a 1L at ASU. Statistically, we have the strongest class the law school has seen, ASU has great student/faculty ratio, and and perhaps USWNR finally realized that Phoenix is a better place than Tucson to launch a legal career. Really I think the rankings just affirm that ASU and UA are very equal schools.

Ummm...last time I checked "location" is not one of the criteria used in the USNWR rankings. Employment at a graduation was a pretty big difference between the two schools (ASU 90%, UA 77%). I've written in other threads that I find it hard to believe that two very similar schools have such disparate employment at graduation rates. I think this speaks to manipulation of data that goes on behind the scenes. I agree with mepg that the schools are pretty equal.

Still, look at the NLJ 250 statistics or judicial clerkship placements and you'll see that UA is head and shoulders above ASU.

This I was really interested in as I almost committed to ASU before making a choice to go elsewhere (because of financial advantage). I had been told by administrators to just wait till the rankings came out as if to say.... You'll see how good we are. However in visiting and speaking with current students it didn't seem that any of them thought things were any different. I know their peer scores went up to to the new dean and rumors that the law school is going to move to downtown Phoenix, but plus 17. Come on. That data was manipulated to fit the mold. The 3Ls I spoke with were still scrambling to find anything anywhere a few weeks ago. I think ASU manipulated what they had obvious self-reporting control over. . . Their employment numbers. I believe ASU & UA to be on the same playing field and maybe rightfully so where they are, but I think ASU got their by doing something unethical.

[jl2032]

so are the rankings out yet? was the leak real? I mean it looked real, but was it?

Sibley, after all this time, you doubt me?

[sibley]

so are the rankings out yet? was the leak real? I mean it looked real, but was it?

Sibley, after all this time, you doubt me?

1) I didn't know it was you
2) it looked real
3) I'm glad it was real =D!!!
4) where did you get it?
5) where are you going?

[jl2032]

so are the rankings out yet? was the leak real? I mean it looked real, but was it?

Sibley, after all this time, you doubt me?

1) I didn't know it was you
2) it looked real
3) I'm glad it was real =D!!!
4) where did you get it?
5) where are you going?

lol.

1) I'm actually surprised it was me. I wasn't all that concerned about the rankings, but the magazine was right there and i knew others wanted it.
2) It was real, and I can't believe how many people thought I was lying about this at first. I guess there are a lot of people who like to lie about this stuff out there?
3) Did you have a specific school that moved up this year? I feel so bad that, after spending 98% of my time here in the fordham thread, I was the bearer of bad news for those guys.
4) Hudson News in Grand Central Terminal. It's a block away from my office and a guy I work with told me it was there and told me about the NY schools - Columbia:4, NYU:6, Fordham:34. I only half believed him. When I posted it here, the thread said someone should go confirm. So, I bought it.
5) It was between NYU and Columbia. Still kind of is, but Columbia's pulling way ahead. They are so much nicer in the whole admissions process, they sent me multiple packages with magazines, books, curriculum guides, and they have an extra Admitted Student event coming up. I get something from them every day, either an email or a phone call from a student. NYU is somewhat silent. They sent me a form letter that I received only yesterday asking me for a deposit and saying "in the Spring, you'll be able to attend an Admitted Students program". Probably a mistake since their ASW's have all ended.

[sibley]

so are the rankings out yet? was the leak real? I mean it looked real, but was it?

Sibley, after all this time, you doubt me?

1) I didn't know it was you
2) it looked real
3) I'm glad it was real =D!!!
4) where did you get it?
5) where are you going?

lol.

1) I'm actually surprised it was me. I wasn't all that concerned about the rankings, but the magazine was right there and i knew others wanted it.
2) It was real, and I can't believe how many people thought I was lying about this at first. I guess there are a lot of people who like to lie about this stuff out there?
3) Did you have a specific school that moved up this year? I feel so bad that, after spending 98% of my time here in the fordham thread, I was the bearer of bad news for those guys.
4) Hudson News in Grand Central Terminal. It's a block away from my office and a guy I work with told me it was there and told me about the NY schools - Columbia:4, NYU:6, Fordham:34. I only half believed him. When I posted it here, the thread said someone should go confirm. So, I bought it.
5) It was between NYU and Columbia. Still kind of is, but Columbia's pulling way ahead. They are so much nicer in the whole admissions process, they sent me multiple packages with magazines, books, curriculum guides, and they have an extra Admitted Student event coming up. I get something from them every day, either an email or a phone call from a student. NYU is somewhat silent. They sent me a form letter that I received only yesterday asking me for a deposit and saying "in the Spring, you'll be able to attend an Admitted Students program". Probably a mistake since their ASW's have all ended.

lol apparenly nyu is very understaffed.. or living in another dimension of time. that's so cool that you found it! I tried to hard to but all the newstands at the airports only had the colleges edition.
I'm almost definitely going to GW, and they did 8 points better than last year. But that was expected with the change in the ranking system. But now that they're just ranked 1 point lower than WashU I don't feel bad about picking them over my 1 t20+scholly (since GW places better I was going to pick it anyway... but now there is less guilt)

[T14_Scholly]

lol apparenly nyu is very understaffed.. or living in another dimension of time. that's so cool that you found it! I tried to hard to but all the newstands at the airports only had the colleges edition.
I'm almost definitely going to GW, and they did 8 points better than last year. But that was expected with the change in the ranking system. But now that they're just ranked 1 point lower than WashU I don't feel bad about picking them over my 1 t20+scholly (since GW places better I was going to pick it anyway... but now there is less guilt)

But what if GW falls out of the top 20 next year, or the year after that? You'll be screwed, and wishing you went to WUSTL. GL HF

[sibley]

lol apparenly nyu is very understaffed.. or living in another dimension of time. that's so cool that you found it! I tried to hard to but all the newstands at the airports only had the colleges edition.
I'm almost definitely going to GW, and they did 8 points better than last year. But that was expected with the change in the ranking system. But now that they're just ranked 1 point lower than WashU I don't feel bad about picking them over my 1 t20+scholly (since GW places better I was going to pick it anyway... but now there is less guilt)

But what if GW falls out of the top 20 next year, or the year after that? You'll be screwed, and wishing you went to WUSTL. GL HF

that could happen with any school. I was prepared to go there with it ranking where it was last year. I just feel less guilt about picking it over the cheaper, higher-ranked option.

[PhantaManta]

Damn! I pass hudson news at GC like every day... The glory could have been mine!

[sibley]

Damn! I pass hudson news at GC like every day... The glory could have been mine!

that's what you get for not checking obsessively twice a day.

[T14_Scholly]

lol apparenly nyu is very understaffed.. or living in another dimension of time. that's so cool that you found it! I tried to hard to but all the newstands at the airports only had the colleges edition.
I'm almost definitely going to GW, and they did 8 points better than last year. But that was expected with the change in the ranking system. But now that they're just ranked 1 point lower than WashU I don't feel bad about picking them over my 1 t20+scholly (since GW places better I was going to pick it anyway... but now there is less guilt)

But what if GW falls out of the top 20 next year, or the year after that? You'll be screwed, and wishing you went to WUSTL. GL HF

that could happen with any school. I was prepared to go there with it ranking where it was last year. I just feel less guilt about picking it over the cheaper, higher-ranked option.

Right. When GW falls back next year, the guilt will return.

[thetheme]

Looks like some people are taking the news hard...

--LinkRemoved--

[danquayle]

lol apparenly nyu is very understaffed.. or living in another dimension of time. that's so cool that you found it! I tried to hard to but all the newstands at the airports only had the colleges edition.
I'm almost definitely going to GW, and they did 8 points better than last year. But that was expected with the change in the ranking system. But now that they're just ranked 1 point lower than WashU I don't feel bad about picking them over my 1 t20+scholly (since GW places better I was going to pick it anyway... but now there is less guilt)

But what if GW falls out of the top 20 next year, or the year after that? You'll be screwed, and wishing you went to WUSTL. GL HF

that could happen with any school. I was prepared to go there with it ranking where it was last year. I just feel less guilt about picking it over the cheaper, higher-ranked option.

The raw numbers from 20 to 27 only amount to about 4 points difference... there isn't really much difference between them. Just like last year. GW didn't suddenly get worse and then quickly get better in a year's time. It's the same school and there are just small variations among them. Fordham is a little puzzling, but the only school that I think has anything to worry about is Washington & Lee.

[sibley]

lol apparenly nyu is very understaffed.. or living in another dimension of time. that's so cool that you found it! I tried to hard to but all the newstands at the airports only had the colleges edition.
I'm almost definitely going to GW, and they did 8 points better than last year. But that was expected with the change in the ranking system. But now that they're just ranked 1 point lower than WashU I don't feel bad about picking them over my 1 t20+scholly (since GW places better I was going to pick it anyway... but now there is less guilt)

But what if GW falls out of the top 20 next year, or the year after that? You'll be screwed, and wishing you went to WUSTL. GL HF

that could happen with any school. I was prepared to go there with it ranking where it was last year. I just feel less guilt about picking it over the cheaper, higher-ranked option.

The raw numbers from 20 to 27 only amount to about 4 points difference... there isn't really much difference between them. Just like last year. GW didn't suddenly get worse and then quickly get better in a year's time. It's the same school and there are just small variations among them. Fordham is a little puzzling, but the only school that I think has anything to worry about is Washington & Lee.

what about schools that dropped from t1 to t2, like cardozo? I turned down a big scholly from them... originally wanted debt-free education, now want something that I won't mind following me for the rest of my life.

[hannah87]

what about schools that dropped from t1 to t2, like cardozo? I turned down a big scholly from them... originally wanted debt-free education, now want something that I won't mind following me for the rest of my life.

that's also very likely to come back, i think. plus it dropped only to #52, so i really doubt the change to "T2" is going to affect the job prospects from Cardozo since (like Fordham) it is totally regional and is well-known by NYC firms.

[uwb09]

you know what's funny, 0Ls freaking out over rankings, when this year's rankings don't mean squat to their job prospects

the rankings that matter (not that they even matter that much to begin with) will be 2 years from now when you are a 2L and are trying to get your first job (edited as corrected by other posters)

kind of entertaining watching people making such drastic admissions decisions based on rankings that will have zero relevance 2 years from now. just look at the movement of everything below the top 20-30 the past 5 years, the jumps in ranking, from T1 to T2, and from T2 to TTT are all over the place

[danquayle]

what about schools that dropped from t1 to t2, like cardozo? I turned down a big scholly from them... originally wanted debt-free education, now want something that I won't mind following me for the rest of my life.

The only thing that matters in rankings are the trends (if there is ANY value in the rankings that is). If a school consistently goes up (a la Boston U, Wash U), then the school is probably improving. If the school consistently goes down (Wash & Lee, UC-Hastings), then maybe they're losing value. There's too much statistical noise to take anything from year to year variations.

I haven't really followed Dozo, but I'm pretty sure its always been right around where its at.

[im_blue]

you know what's funny, 0Ls freaking out over rankings, when this year's rankings don't mean squat to their job prospects

the rankings that matter (not that they even matter that much to begin with) will be 2 years from now when you are a 2L and are doing OCI.

kind of entertaining watching people making such drastic admissions decisions based on rankings that will have zero relevance 2 years from now. just look at the movement of everything below the top 20-30 the past 5 years, the jumps in ranking, from T1 to T2, and from T2 to TTT are all over the place

[sibley]

you know what's funny, 0Ls freaking out over rankings, when this year's rankings don't mean squat to their job prospects

the rankings that matter (not that they even matter that much to begin with) will be 2 years from now when you are a 2L and are doing OCI.

kind of entertaining watching people making such drastic admissions decisions based on rankings that will have zero relevance 2 years from now. just look at the movement of everything below the top 20-30 the past 5 years, the jumps in ranking, from T1 to T2, and from T2 to TTT are all over the place

also I'm not making decisions based on rankings at this point. I'm interested in them independently.

[night06]

the rankings that matter (not that they even matter that much to begin with) will be 3 years from now when you are a 3L and are graduating trying to get your first job

No, they still won't matter.

(and most of us will be trying to get our first jobs through OCI in 1.5 years, not 3)

[danquayle]

you know what's funny, 0Ls freaking out over rankings, when this year's rankings don't mean squat to their job prospects

the rankings that matter (not that they even matter that much to begin with) will be 3 years from now when you are a 3L and are graduating trying to get your first job

kind of entertaining watching people making such drastic admissions decisions based on rankings that will have zero relevance 3 years from now. just look at the movement of everything below the top 20-30 the past 5 years, the jumps in ranking, from T1 to T2, and from T2 to TTT are all over the place

The rankings themselves don't even matter then. The only way rankings can affect you is if they somehow influence the opinions of a good proportion of the hiring attorneys at law firms across the country. If that sounds way too vague and indirect, then well.... there you go.

In any event, any increase in US News rankings would have to be maintained for some time to actually change a school's reputation. For example, if IU drops out of the T-30 next year, then that 23 rankings from last year means nothing.

Edit: Keep in mind, good rankings are meant to reflect reality, not direct it. You really think actual reputations fluctuate so widely? Just look at the T-14, the reason they're so elite is they all have pretty long histories, long histories filled with good accomplishments. Reputations aren't built off one year's US News Rankings' spike or plummet.

[smartblonde87]

Damn! I pass hudson news at GC like every day... The glory could have been mine!

+1

lol

[Tangerine Gleam]

I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.