Yeah, any of those 100% is suspicious, regardless of metric. Only Wisconsin's 100% bar passage is believable.Tangerine Gleam wrote:I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.
USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously Forum
- danquayle
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
- Rand M.
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
I really think that if this is going to be allowed to continue then USNWR should just go ahead and scrap the metric all together. All it does is allow 'inferior' schools to close the gap by having a metric in which they can tie/come close to the better schools. It's kind of crazy to imagine the rankings with no employment component, so the real fix to this problem is to make it an actual measure.Tangerine Gleam wrote:I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.
- danquayle
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
Yeah, its really the only thing that should matter to prospective students and yet its the easiest to manipulate.Rand M. wrote:I really think that if this is going to be allowed to continue then USNWR should just go ahead and scrap the metric all together. All it does is allow 'inferior' schools to close the gap by having a metric in which they can tie/come close to the better schools. It's kind of crazy to imagine the rankings with no employment component, so the real fix to this problem is to make it an actual measure.Tangerine Gleam wrote:I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.
- Unitas
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
Why doesn't the bar just track where each lawyer is employed?? They track which school you went too, why not just have to update them on job changes or lack of a job. Then they can report it to everyone.... Wouldn't be a really easy solution to this huge problem.danquayle wrote:Yeah, its really the only thing that should matter to prospective students and yet its the easiest to manipulate.Rand M. wrote:I really think that if this is going to be allowed to continue then USNWR should just go ahead and scrap the metric all together. All it does is allow 'inferior' schools to close the gap by having a metric in which they can tie/come close to the better schools. It's kind of crazy to imagine the rankings with no employment component, so the real fix to this problem is to make it an actual measure.Tangerine Gleam wrote:I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.
- Unitas
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
Why doesn't the bar just track where each lawyer is employed?? They track which school you went too, why not just make it mandatory to update them on any job changes or lack of a job. Then they can report it to everyone.... Wouldn't that be a really easy solution to this huge problem?danquayle wrote:Yeah, its really the only thing that should matter to prospective students and yet its the easiest to manipulate.Rand M. wrote:I really think that if this is going to be allowed to continue then USNWR should just go ahead and scrap the metric all together. All it does is allow 'inferior' schools to close the gap by having a metric in which they can tie/come close to the better schools. It's kind of crazy to imagine the rankings with no employment component, so the real fix to this problem is to make it an actual measure.Tangerine Gleam wrote:I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.
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- Rand M.
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
I problem with that is that I think we are the only one's who care. For some reason the top schools don't seem all that interested in creating even more separation than there already is; if they did care they would fight it.Unitas wrote:Why doesn't the bar just track where each lawyer is employed?? They track which school you went too, why not just make it mandatory to update them on any job changes or lack of a job. Then they can report it to everyone.... Wouldn't that be a really easy solution to this huge problem?danquayle wrote:Yeah, its really the only thing that should matter to prospective students and yet its the easiest to manipulate.Rand M. wrote:I really think that if this is going to be allowed to continue then USNWR should just go ahead and scrap the metric all together. All it does is allow 'inferior' schools to close the gap by having a metric in which they can tie/come close to the better schools. It's kind of crazy to imagine the rankings with no employment component, so the real fix to this problem is to make it an actual measure.Tangerine Gleam wrote:I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
100% employment. I am pretty sure that even working at McDonald's counts (and not in the legal department). The subject was brought up at a recent ASW I attended.
- Rand M.
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
Even if you were to count all sorts of jobs that still doesn't explain how absolutely no one in their class went on to get another degree; really? No one in the class is independently wealthy? There are just too many factors that can intervene for a school to EVER report out full employment. Not a single LLM in the bunch? No Phds?mommamia wrote:100% employment. I am pretty sure that even working at McDonald's counts (and not in the legal department). The subject was brought up at a recent ASW I attended.
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
I mean, I don't get why not. They would all be on equal ground if everyone had to be honest. ABA should track legal employment anyhow, there really is no reason against it.Rand M. wrote:I problem with that is that I think we are the only one's who care. For some reason the top schools don't seem all that interested in creating even more separation than there already is; if they did care they would fight it.Unitas wrote: Why doesn't the bar just track where each lawyer is employed?? They track which school you went too, why not just make it mandatory to update them on any job changes or lack of a job. Then they can report it to everyone.... Wouldn't that be a really easy solution to this huge problem?
I don't mean McDonald's burger flipping jobs either. They would have to be jobs that require or are made better by a JD. Maybe even should include salary and bonus. Haha, but then students would be encouraged to estimate high bonuses. Lovely.
- jl2032
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
I'm sure any of us could find a way to get to 100%...
It means that those who want jobs have jobs.
If I find an alumna who doesn't have a job, I take it to mean that they aren't looking for a job, and so I wouldn't count them in the statistics. Some might be going on to pursue other interests, degrees, etc. The rest... well, if they wanted a job they'd find one flipping burgers. They must not want a job.
It's more like how the government defines unemployment - those who are actively seeking jobs and don't have one.
See, easy 100%
It means that those who want jobs have jobs.
If I find an alumna who doesn't have a job, I take it to mean that they aren't looking for a job, and so I wouldn't count them in the statistics. Some might be going on to pursue other interests, degrees, etc. The rest... well, if they wanted a job they'd find one flipping burgers. They must not want a job.
It's more like how the government defines unemployment - those who are actively seeking jobs and don't have one.
See, easy 100%
- aIvin adams
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
i think usnwr stopped counting unemployed who were not seeking employment or who are continuing formal educationRand M. wrote:Even if you were to count all sorts of jobs that still doesn't explain how absolutely no one in their class went on to get another degree; really? No one in the class is independently wealthy? There are just too many factors that can intervene for a school to EVER report out full employment. Not a single LLM in the bunch? No Phds?mommamia wrote:100% employment. I am pretty sure that even working at McDonald's counts (and not in the legal department). The subject was brought up at a recent ASW I attended.
- danquayle
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
You don't think you should count someone actively seeking only a legal job? For any career really, but especially legal, taking a poor first job can slot you into a shaky career early on...jl2032 wrote:I'm sure any of us could find a way to get to 100%...
It means that those who want jobs have jobs.
If I find an alumna who doesn't have a job, I take it to mean that they aren't looking for a job, and so I wouldn't count them in the statistics. Some might be going on to pursue other interests, degrees, etc. The rest... well, if they wanted a job they'd find one flipping burgers. They must not want a job.
It's more like how the government defines unemployment - those who are actively seeking jobs and don't have one.
See, easy 100%
- jl2032
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
my post wasn't meant to be taken seriously... i guess tone doesn't come across well online...danquayle wrote:You don't think you should count someone actively seeking only a legal job? For any career really, but especially legal, taking a poor first job can slot you into a shaky career early on...jl2032 wrote:I'm sure any of us could find a way to get to 100%...
It means that those who want jobs have jobs.
If I find an alumna who doesn't have a job, I take it to mean that they aren't looking for a job, and so I wouldn't count them in the statistics. Some might be going on to pursue other interests, degrees, etc. The rest... well, if they wanted a job they'd find one flipping burgers. They must not want a job.
It's more like how the government defines unemployment - those who are actively seeking jobs and don't have one.
See, easy 100%
of course, i think we should count legal employment only... i'm just saying it's easy to play with numbers like this...
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- danquayle
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
It was just this part:jl2032 wrote:my post wasn't meant to be taken seriously... i guess tone doesn't come across well online...danquayle wrote: You don't think you should count someone actively seeking only a legal job? For any career really, but especially legal, taking a poor first job can slot you into a shaky career early on...
of course, i think we should count legal employment only... i'm just saying it's easy to play with numbers like this...
As if you met someone from (what is it, Columbia?) that didn't have a law job you'd think you just weren't trying... I don't see many Columbia grads taking up work as a cab driver if they don't have an offer coming out. Of course, that'd be a story to tell the customers. Prob get booku tips.jl2032 wrote:
If I find an alumna who doesn't have a job, I take it to mean that they aren't looking for a job
Edit: Then again, from Columbia... maybe it would be safe to say an unemployed alum isn't trying too hard
- jl2032
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
My entire post wasn't serious... I'm just saying that you could take a real extreme view and rationalize excluding everyone who isn't employed to get to 100%danquayle wrote:It was just this part:jl2032 wrote:my post wasn't meant to be taken seriously... i guess tone doesn't come across well online...danquayle wrote: You don't think you should count someone actively seeking only a legal job? For any career really, but especially legal, taking a poor first job can slot you into a shaky career early on...
of course, i think we should count legal employment only... i'm just saying it's easy to play with numbers like this...
As if you met someone from (what is it, Columbia?) that didn't have a law job you'd think you just weren't trying... I don't see many Columbia grads taking up work as a cab driver if they don't have an offer coming out. Of course, that'd be a story to tell the customers. Prob get booku tips.jl2032 wrote:
If I find an alumna who doesn't have a job, I take it to mean that they aren't looking for a job
Edit: Then again, from Columbia... maybe it would be safe to say an unemployed alum isn't trying too hard
"it depends on what your definition of 'is' is."
- danquayle
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
Uh, Res ipsa loquitur?jl2032 wrote:My entire post wasn't serious... I'm just saying that you could take a real extreme view and rationalize excluding everyone who isn't employed to get to 100%danquayle wrote:It was just this part:jl2032 wrote:my post wasn't meant to be taken seriously... i guess tone doesn't come across well online...danquayle wrote: You don't think you should count someone actively seeking only a legal job? For any career really, but especially legal, taking a poor first job can slot you into a shaky career early on...
of course, i think we should count legal employment only... i'm just saying it's easy to play with numbers like this...
As if you met someone from (what is it, Columbia?) that didn't have a law job you'd think you just weren't trying... I don't see many Columbia grads taking up work as a cab driver if they don't have an offer coming out. Of course, that'd be a story to tell the customers. Prob get booku tips.jl2032 wrote:
If I find an alumna who doesn't have a job, I take it to mean that they aren't looking for a job
Edit: Then again, from Columbia... maybe it would be safe to say an unemployed alum isn't trying too hard
"it depends on what your definition of 'is' is."
Just kidding. I don't even know what that means.
- CEO
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
I understand there are are some criteria to these rankings like bar passage rate and the alumni's (un)employment level after graduation
Does anyone know how they weigh the factors to come up with the score and which factors are weighted more heavily?
Thanks!
Does anyone know how they weigh the factors to come up with the score and which factors are weighted more heavily?
Thanks!
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- Rand M.
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... ology.htmlCEO wrote:I understand there are are some criteria to these rankings like bar passage rate and the alumni's (un)employment level after graduation
Does anyone know how they weigh the factors to come up with the score and which factors are weighted more heavily?
Thanks!
- los blancos
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
Rand M. wrote:Even if you were to count all sorts of jobs that still doesn't explain how absolutely no one in their class went on to get another degree; really? No one in the class is independently wealthy? There are just too many factors that can intervene for a school to EVER report out full employment. Not a single LLM in the bunch? No Phds?mommamia wrote:100% employment. I am pretty sure that even working at McDonald's counts (and not in the legal department). The subject was brought up at a recent ASW I attended.
FWIW the really small class size might help produce something seemingly improbable like this.
- General Tso
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
Dude you better get some hard evidence that it's false. The TLS police (*ahem* SBL *ahem*) will not allow you make allegations you can't back up with facts.Tangerine Gleam wrote:I apologize if this has already been discussed, but did anyone notice that Duke is the only school claiming 100% employment upon graduation? Can they be for real? My bullshit meter is screaming.
- CEO
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
Rand M. wrote:http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... ology.htmlCEO wrote:I understand there are are some criteria to these rankings like bar passage rate and the alumni's (un)employment level after graduation
Does anyone know how they weigh the factors to come up with the score and which factors are weighted more heavily?
Thanks!
Cool!
P.S.
Do you know where to get a break-down of where each law school lies on each component like quality, selectivity, etc?
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
Rand M. wrote:Even if you were to count all sorts of jobs that still doesn't explain how absolutely no one in their class went on to get another degree; really? No one in the class is independently wealthy? There are just too many factors that can intervene for a school to EVER report out full employment. Not a single LLM in the bunch? No Phds?mommamia wrote:100% employment. I am pretty sure that even working at McDonald's counts (and not in the legal department). The subject was brought up at a recent ASW I attended.
"The employment rates for 2008 graduating class determine success in this category. Graduates who are working or pursuing graduate degrees are considered employed." From the USNWR methodology page.... At least that much is not fudged.
- soullesswonder
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
http://www.law.duke.edu/news/story?id=4826&u=11
Duke's not backing down, and FWIW, the process described in this article is almost exactly what I was told at ASW. Duke mobilized just about everyone to make sure their grads had jobs.
Duke's not backing down, and FWIW, the process described in this article is almost exactly what I was told at ASW. Duke mobilized just about everyone to make sure their grads had jobs.
- Rand M.
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
http://money-law.blogspot.com/2008/08/z ... n-law.htmlCEO wrote:Rand M. wrote:http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... ology.htmlCEO wrote:I understand there are are some criteria to these rankings like bar passage rate and the alumni's (un)employment level after graduation
Does anyone know how they weigh the factors to come up with the score and which factors are weighted more heavily?
Thanks!
Cool!
P.S.
Do you know where to get a break-down of where each law school lies on each component like quality, selectivity, etc?
I haven't seen one for this year, but this is a pretty good breakdown. Z-scores are pretty simple to understand; a bigger number is better. The chart is really small, but you can just save it and then open it and zoom in.
- Dick Whitman
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Re: USNWR Rankings Released...Seriously
Anyone who went to Duke Law is much more likely to be working at Goldman Sachs than McDonald's.mommamia wrote:100% employment. I am pretty sure that even working at McDonald's counts (and not in the legal department). The subject was brought up at a recent ASW I attended.
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