Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which option to choose?

McGeorge ($$$)
2
67%
USF ($)
0
No votes
Cardozo
0
No votes
Cal Western ($$$$)
1
33%
 
Total votes: 3

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Great Satchmo » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:13 pm

Edit: new thread about USF vs. McGeorge for the final decision!

Here is the deal:

(1) In at USF w/ $26k once (I feel confident I can find more funding in 2L and 3L, but obviously can't guarantee it). I live in and love San Francisco.

(2) Cardozo w/$0 (admitted for May, but can't attend in May. Pending deferral to January entry, which would remove a semester of COL, which is good). Catch with this is if I get the deferral, it's binding, so I'd have to withdraw my WL at Hastings and maybe Davis (haven't heard from Davis, but I'm assuming this is the result). Never lived in New York, but I love the city and I can only imagine living in Manhattan/NYC would be amazing, it's the center of so much and it's so large.

(3) Cal Western - full tuition + books stipend. This is still lingering in my head, because it's free and I have family connections to exploit (not directly for work, most likely, but they'll certainly have connections with attorneys). Not stoked on the location, as I grew up there, and I like the hustle-bustle of the city, but free + family connections = pretty safe bet.


Option (1) is "safe" in the sense that I have some money, it allows me to wait out the WL for a school I'd go to in an instant over any others (Hastings/Davis), and I know I like SF. I know I would be happy at USF, but I look at my other options and think "what if something else is better".

Option (2) is great because it would give me the opportunity to try something new, living in NYC, and I think I would really love Manhattan. Plus it seems that Cardozo does reasonably well in NYC. This would be a risk because it's somewhere I've never lived, it's going to cost a lot, and I'd have to withdraw from Hastings/Davis (my top choices, but with a 160/3.6, I doubt I can count on them as acceptances).

Option (3) is fiscally safe, since I'd have full tuition and books, plus I *could* live with family to reduce COL here and there. Cal Western has a good name in San Diego, but obviously making larger firms more out of reach. However, I have family members who have been practicing for a decade or two in San Diego, so I know I'd have a network I could access. I grew up there and don't really love it (again, I love the big city), but obviously SD isn't a terrible place.


Any inputs on this one? Assuming Davis WL's me (or rejects me) and I do get the deferral from Cardozo, this seems to be the choice I'll have to make for Thursday (USF's deposit deadline is the 15th).
Last edited by Great Satchmo on Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

lietx3
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 8:56 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby lietx3 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:20 pm

I voted USF by accident. Go Dozo

If money isn't an issue - a major one - Dozo... absolutely no to the T4 unless you have a hookup

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Danteshek » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:24 pm

Cal Western, because you're probably going to wind up in SD. You should exploit those connections. Also USF is similar despite the ranking difference. Cardozo Jan entry is just too strange. Conventional 1L experience is better.

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Great Satchmo » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:32 pm

I changed the poll so you can now change your vote.

Notes:

Money isn't something I want to forget about, but I'll pay what I need to for opportunities and education.

I have family connections in San Diego, that went to Cal Western, and have been in private practice for a while (as well as one having worked for the DA, or PD I can't recall, for a while). They certainly know attorneys around town and are happy to help me out. So I guess I do have "hook-ups".

I know I'd prefer to live and set-up life in the Bay Area, where I am now. I know Manhattan would be more fun for the next handful of years, but I have no idea what it would be like to settle down there. San Diego is ok, but I know it's not my first choice of location.

User avatar
evilgenius
Posts: 179
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:18 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby evilgenius » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:36 pm

Danteshek wrote:Cal Western, because you're probably going to wind up in SD. You should exploit those connections. Also USF is similar despite the ranking difference. Cardozo Jan entry is just too strange. Conventional 1L experience is better.


-1. If you dont want to settle in San Diego, you shouldnt attend Cal Western. Its extremely regional. And I'm not a rankings snob, but the portability difference between USF and Cal Western is extreme. At least from USF you have a chance of leaving the region. Outside of CA most people have never even heard of Cal Western.

If money is a factor, I'd go for USF. You'd save $26K in tuition and moving expenses (just moving to NYC is also pricey). And SF is where you'd like to practice eventually.

If its not a factor, and you really want to live it up in NYC, I'd say take Cardozo. A January entry is unconventional, but I dont think its "too strange". If anything, you may have a better shot at getting good grades because you wont be competing with those that start this fall.

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Great Satchmo » Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:09 pm

evilgenius wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Cal Western, because you're probably going to wind up in SD. You should exploit those connections. Also USF is similar despite the ranking difference. Cardozo Jan entry is just too strange. Conventional 1L experience is better.


-1. If you dont want to settle in San Diego, you shouldnt attend Cal Western. Its extremely regional. And I'm not a rankings snob, but the portability difference between USF and Cal Western is extreme. At least from USF you have a chance of leaving the region. Outside of CA most people have never even heard of Cal Western.

If money is a factor, I'd go for USF. You'd save $26K in tuition and moving expenses (just moving to NYC is also pricey). And SF is where you'd like to practice eventually.

If its not a factor, and you really want to live it up in NYC, I'd say take Cardozo. A January entry is unconventional, but I dont think its "too strange". If anything, you may have a better shot at getting good grades because you wont be competing with those that start this fall.


Well, I'm borrowing all of the money, so loans have to be a factor. However, if it affords me opportunities, I'll deal with the loans.

I'm not dead-set against SD, but it gives me a safe opportunity b/c I have family connections, free tuition, and the possibility of living with my parents for free if I need/want.

I have been in the Bay Area, a few different places, for about 7 years now, and really do love it here. Currently I live in San Francisco, and can easily see myself staying in the city for a while, and then eventually moving to the surrounding area as I settle down.

NYC would be amazing, and I'm sure I'd love Manhattan, but I also love that the Bay Area has beautiful areas that are easy to access and do outdoor-sie stuff (hiking, camping, skiing, the coast, wine country, etc, etc). I just don't know, and can't know, whether NYC is a long-term option I'd enjoy. However, thinking about passing up on the possible deferral makes me worry that it's a risk/opportunity I'd really benefit from and enjoy. However, if I got into Hastings or Davis, I'd definitely go with that - but accepting the deferral would rule those out.

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Danteshek » Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:24 pm

Extreme difference? Come on. Most of the firms that won't hire a Cal Western grad also will not hire a USF grad. And neither are these degrees are portable. And there is less competition in SD.

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Great Satchmo » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:17 pm

Danteshek wrote:Extreme difference? Come on. Most of the firms that won't hire a Cal Western grad also will not hire a USF grad. And neither are these degrees are portable. And there is less competition in SD.


Wouldn't you think that USF isn't as limiting in the level or type of work as Cal Western? Not to say that USF will give me a pass into a firm, but wouldn't it still allow for competition for some better jobs?

Also, I've heard that even a lot of USD students have to look to OC or LA for internships and, later, work. The sense I've gotten in speaking with people is that San Diego may be less competitive, but the top employers still recruit from UCLA/USC and other schools. So it seems that even the San Diego market may be pretty competitive, but with less jobs.

I'm starting to take in the idea of debt again, and Cal Western with the scholarship and family connections seems more appealing again. If I didn't have reticence about moving back to San Diego, I think it'd be an easy decision. I also realize that I could go to USF and if I couldn't find work up there, I could just move to San Diego and try to network through my uncle.

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Danteshek » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:01 pm

There may be a difference, but I don't think it should control your decision. In this case the cost differential (tuition and COL) is too great to ignore.

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Great Satchmo » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:09 pm

Danteshek wrote:There may be a difference, but I don't think it should control your decision. In this case the cost differential (tuition and COL) is too great to ignore.


Well, it's not the portability I'm concerned about (looking back, it seems that this is to what you refer).

I know I want to live in the Bay Area, I love this place. I can see settling down and having a family here. San Diego? Not a bad place, but I don't see it the same way (or I don't want to see it that way).

I guess I'm afraid of leaving the Bay Area and getting to San Diego, and in the next year or few, realizing that the debt reduction wasn't worth leaving. I think I almost worry about missing this place more than I do the debt...which is strange. However, the idea of graduating with COL debt only and with family connections, makes me feel pretty good.

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Great Satchmo » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:19 pm

And this is where I also start asking myself if McGeorge is a compromise between staying in Northern California and minimizing debt. COL is cheap and I have $25k/year without strings.

USF is where I'd go if I had a renewable, but it's not. I feel like I can get more money after the first year, but it probably won't be $26k. With this option, I'm paying for comfort with the school and location.

McGeorge is in Sac, which isn't too bad. If you do well it seems like you can make it out, even if it's after a few years, back to the Bay Area. The COL and $75k out of my total costs, and anything on top of that I can get, would not be a bad option. This is a compromise between a decent school (not T4) and substantially lowered debt.

Cal Western is a very safe option, besides having a scholarship stipulation. The family connections will certainly help. However, I'm just not sure of San Diego, and I'd have to expect to spend my career there (even though I KNOW it's not a bad place, and it has a lot of things I'm sure I really enjoy).


At least I'm not leaving a big decision up in the air until a few days before...haha.

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Danteshek » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:21 pm

Well, if you think you will be happier at USF, you should go to USF. Just make sure that you think about why you want to be in SF and not SD, and whether it is your long term best interest to be in SF.

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Great Satchmo » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:58 pm

Danteshek wrote:Well, if you think you will be happier at USF, you should go to USF. Just make sure that you think about why you want to be in SF and not SD, and whether it is your long term best interest to be in SF.


I know you aren't asking me to tell you, but this forum is a great sounding board.

I love San Francisco because I think it is the best location possible. The city and the area surrounding is is amazing. The area is beautiful and I love the weather. I can go to Tahoe, Yosemite, the wine country (where I went to UG), the central coast, downtown in SF, and through a variety of suburbs and little towns. I love that it's liberal and there is interest in things I care about; in the end, I think I'm a bleeding heart. Plus there is certainly a lot of economic activity.

On the other hand, San Diego only lacks a few things (like weather, the scenery, political/cultural ideologies, and the option for a dense city). I KNOW that growing up in San Diego has tainted my interest in moving back. When I go back to visit, I realize there is a lot to the city, it's just spread out.

Sacramento is also a cool city, very low COL, and I could get work back in the Bay Area if I tried enough. I feel like this is a good middle-ground. Plus I have interest in policy work, so Sacramento isn't a bad place to be.

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Danteshek » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:24 pm

Consider whether your desire to be in SF is immature. Maybe SD is a better place to raise a family. Maybe SD is a better place for you to build your law practice (because you probably will end up as a small firm practitioner). I totally understand how living away from SD taints your view of SD. The problem is that you might be shooting yourself in the foot by staying in SF.

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Great Satchmo » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:41 pm

Danteshek wrote:Consider whether your desire to be in SF is immature. Maybe SD is a better place to raise a family. Maybe SD is a better place for you to build your law practice (because you probably will end up as a small firm practitioner). I totally understand how living away from SD taints your view of SD. The problem is that you might be shooting yourself in the foot by staying in SF.


And that's where I start to consider McGeorge, where I have $75k guaranteed, plus whatever I can get on top of that with performance. Plus COL is cheap if I stay. I can take a crack at SF/Bay Area after graduation, or if I can find an interesting job in Sac, I'd be ok staying.

I think about San Diego as a great place abstractly - as if it doesn't apply to me. I think a big concern is the the T4 CWSL has a scholarship stipulation, and I'm afraid of the stress that will add to going there. If they guaranteed the money, I think I'd have to go with CWSL (they already said they wouldn't, but I may see if I can leverage McGeorge's new offer).

I feel most confident that I'll be happy and perform well at USF, and I think it' just because I enjoy the place. However, I feel like $50,000 is a lot to ignore when I may be able to work in SF, or the area, if I go to McGeorge anyway.

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Danteshek » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:11 pm

What is the stipulation for CWSL?

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Great Satchmo » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:16 pm

Danteshek wrote:What is the stipulation for CWSL?


"82"

When I look at the student handbook, the second trimester of 1st year curve, an 82 can be somewhere between top 25% and top 40%. What the actual curve is, I'm not sure.

I'm confident that I can be a solid student, but I'd prefer the pressure to perform to get more (i.e. more funding 2L at USF, or for addition funding on top of what McGeorge has offered), rather than pressure to beat the curve to just keep the money.

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Danteshek » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:25 pm

Yeah... that changes things. You should probably go to McGeorge.

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Great Satchmo » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:28 pm

Danteshek wrote:Yeah... that changes things. You should probably go to McGeorge.


I see McGeorge to be a compromise: it's got a good name in Northern California, especially in Sacramento. It could be possible, although obviously not guaranteed, to get back to the Bay for work (either right out, or a few years out). Government/policy work could be an interest of mine. Low COL, guaranteed money, with the possibility of more. Sacramento isn't a bad place.

I am trying a last ditch effort to negotiate with USF and Cal Western in light of McGeorge's offer, but previous attempts have proven unsuccessful with them.

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Great Satchmo » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:13 pm

Ok, USF and Cal Western came back with a stern "nope, sorry".

I'm starting to lean toward McGeorge, and it doesn't have to do with them being in T2 again, since they are constantly in and out of the tier.

Guaranteed money, access back to SF being a possibility, decent access to Sacramento work, and low COL...

star10
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:17 am

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby star10 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:57 pm

I would say either McGeorge or USF...I had a similar decision and decided on McGeorge. Still I received no money at USF which would have mixed things up a bit. Why McGeorge gave me so much and USF zip, I have no idea.

I think happiness is a big factor to doing well in school, but you have to remember how busy you will be during 1L. You may not have the time to engage in all of the things you enjoy so much in SF.

I agree with your reasoning that it would be better to work towards more money rather than stress out about keeping the money you have. The only thing about USF is that it seems a lot more difficult to get money your second and third year. It seemed like to get any substantial money you had to be in the top 5% or so. Sure you may end up being in the top 5% but you have to ask yourself if you want to potentially pay sticker or close to it at USF the next two years.

If you weren't getting $$$ at USF and McGeorge, Cal W would be more tempting but to me it just seems like the super safe, bland option. You don't want to move back to SD and I don't really see any reason why you have to. Worst comes to worst, you'll always have those family connections in SD to fall back on and at that point it won't matter where you went to school.

If you really want UCD or UCH, don't bind yourself with a deferral from Cardozo. Keep your options open. I think even w/o Cardozo and w/o the UC WL's panning out, you still have some great choices!

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Great Satchmo » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:10 pm

star10 wrote:I would say either McGeorge or USF...I had a similar decision and decided on McGeorge. Still I received no money at USF which would have mixed things up a bit. Why McGeorge gave me so much and USF zip, I have no idea.

I think happiness is a big factor to doing well in school, but you have to remember how busy you will be during 1L. You may not have the time to engage in all of the things you enjoy so much in SF.

I agree with your reasoning that it would be better to work towards more money rather than stress out about keeping the money you have. The only thing about USF is that it seems a lot more difficult to get money your second and third year. It seemed like to get any substantial money you had to be in the top 5% or so. Sure you may end up being in the top 5% but you have to ask yourself if you want to potentially pay sticker or close to it at USF the next two years.

If you weren't getting $$$ at USF and McGeorge, Cal W would be more tempting but to me it just seems like the super safe, bland option. You don't want to move back to SD and I don't really see any reason why you have to. Worst comes to worst, you'll always have those family connections in SD to fall back on and at that point it won't matter where you went to school.

If you really want UCD or UCH, don't bind yourself with a deferral from Cardozo. Keep your options open. I think even w/o Cardozo and w/o the UC WL's panning out, you still have some great choices!


Before McGeorge changed my scholarship, I was pretty well set on USF. However, with the offer they made, I feel like I can't pass it up. It's making me incredibly sad to think about leaving SF, but I figure I can definitely come back in 3 years if I work hard enough at it (granted, it may not be easy).

Here is where things stand (and I'm making a new thread so I can feel ok about letting USF pass me by tomorrow):

- Cardozo - Out, too unsure of NY, the cost is high, and I don't even have the deferral yet. Plus it'd mean completely shutting out Hastings WL and whatever Davis says. I know I love the Bay Area, why move away.

- USF - Begrudgingly out, the cost doesn't substantiate my desire to live the 2 hours west of where I can be guaranteed more scholarship and similar opportunity, should I seek it out.

- McGeorge - The money and access back to SF/Bay, plus Sacramento, make it seem like the right choice.

- Cal Western - Despite the full scholarship, the stipulations really concern me over the stress I'd have to maintain, because I would NOT be ok paying tuition if I lose scholarship money. Plus I'm not psyched about moving back to San Diego, as much as I would love to be near family again.

Time to make a USF vs. McGeorge thread to solidify this! (btw, so lame I need posters here to support my decision).

star10
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:17 am

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby star10 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:58 pm

Have you visited McGeorge yet btw?

That might be an important factor... i.e. you really like it or it makes you want to throw up in your mouth (kind of how I felt about some schools after visiting)

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: Cardoza (no WL's) vs. USF (WL's Hastings, etc) vs. Free T4

Postby Great Satchmo » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:04 pm

star10 wrote:Have you visited McGeorge yet btw?

That might be an important factor... i.e. you really like it or it makes you want to throw up in your mouth (kind of how I felt about some schools after visiting)


I've been, and I'm neutral toward McGeorge. Their campus is nicer than I expected (grass, trees, courtyard, etc), but I still think USF's campus is a lot nicer than any others I've visited.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mrtux45, no exit, Socratease and 2 guests