Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

From Harvard, etc. to Loyola, etc. Why does it happen?

Poll ended at Wed May 12, 2010 4:58 am

Bad Grades
134
28%
Low LSAT scores
248
53%
Geography
20
4%
Fincancial Concerns
26
6%
Programs
3
1%
School Culture
3
1%
Satisfied w/elite UG degree
13
3%
Some other reason
25
5%
 
Total votes: 472

BenJ
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby BenJ » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:30 pm

viking138 wrote:Someone mentioned that median GPAs for law school attending students are typically higher which is definitely true at my school. Median GPA is a 3.2 but the median GPA for those applying to law school is a 3.4 (this is at a lower tier Ivy, not Cornell).

Also, there might be some elite schools with 3.5 GPA medians but I'm pretty certain most have around a 3.3 or less, at least from what I've seen.


Someone calculated this for all of the top 50 or so universities and LACs using the LSAC data at some point. I rather doubt the median GPA is a 3.2 at any Ivy save Princeton, though.

rando
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby rando » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:31 pm

KimmyGibbler wrote:
rando wrote:
KimmyGibbler wrote: If I am going to get a second-rate law school education, I might as well go for next to nothing at a T2 in the region I want to practice. Also, in my mind, when a perspective employer looks at my resume and sees the dominant regional state law school with a named scholarship, he'll wonder what other schools I turned down in order to make a financially wise decision; hell, maybe I turned down UPenn and UVA to avoid the debt. If he sees BU or Fordham, he'll think "Oh, this kid got rejected from Harvard, NYU, and Columbia; what a loser".


The logic here is stretched. A lot.

Good luck with having employers make the assumption that you got Penn or UVA to go to a T2 but thinking you are stupid if you went to Fordham.


I was using Penn and UVA as extreme examples; I was hoping the "hell, maybe" would convey that meaning. My point is that the T2 at near full-ride means I did or could have turned down much better schools, that is all. If you go to Fordham at sticker, there is no mystery; you couldn't do better. Fordham is a great school though, don't get me wrong


Yeah. I go the "hell, maybe" part. But the assumptions are off. No one looking at a resume says, the named scholarship at T2 could have gotten into a much better school but non-named scholarship at Fordham couldn't have. Employers don't know if you are paying sticker. They don't know your LSAT. And you are no more likely to "trick" employers into thinking you got into a better school by going to a T2 instead of T30.

That being said. I am just being argumentative. Because I would do exactly what you did and go to the T2 on a full-ride over Fordham.

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Borhas
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby Borhas » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:33 pm

It's not because they'd rather take the $$$ at T2's (regardless of the wisdom of that proposition)... you're not going to convince me that people who chose to pay $150k+ for UG over free tution at a state school suddenly changed their prestige whoring mindset. People don't work that way.

it's because they have lower LSAT scores

the highest median LSAT at any of the "elite" UG's is 165, and as I know from experience anything below 170 is pretty "TTT" to use TTTLS terminology

viking138
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby viking138 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:35 pm

BenJ wrote:
viking138 wrote:Someone mentioned that median GPAs for law school attending students are typically higher which is definitely true at my school. Median GPA is a 3.2 but the median GPA for those applying to law school is a 3.4 (this is at a lower tier Ivy, not Cornell).

Also, there might be some elite schools with 3.5 GPA medians but I'm pretty certain most have around a 3.3 or less, at least from what I've seen.


Someone calculated this for all of the top 50 or so universities and LACs using the LSAC data at some point. I rather doubt the median GPA is a 3.2 at any Ivy save Princeton, though.


I go to Dartmouth and the median GPA is definitely a 3.2. If you have a 3.58 or higher (approximately) you're in the top 30% of your class.

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KimmyGibbler
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby KimmyGibbler » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:37 pm

rando wrote:
KimmyGibbler wrote:
rando wrote:
KimmyGibbler wrote: If I am going to get a second-rate law school education, I might as well go for next to nothing at a T2 in the region I want to practice. Also, in my mind, when a perspective employer looks at my resume and sees the dominant regional state law school with a named scholarship, he'll wonder what other schools I turned down in order to make a financially wise decision; hell, maybe I turned down UPenn and UVA to avoid the debt. If he sees BU or Fordham, he'll think "Oh, this kid got rejected from Harvard, NYU, and Columbia; what a loser".


The logic here is stretched. A lot.

Good luck with having employers make the assumption that you got Penn or UVA to go to a T2 but thinking you are stupid if you went to Fordham.


I was using Penn and UVA as extreme examples; I was hoping the "hell, maybe" would convey that meaning. My point is that the T2 at near full-ride means I did or could have turned down much better schools, that is all. If you go to Fordham at sticker, there is no mystery; you couldn't do better. Fordham is a great school though, don't get me wrong


Yeah. I go the "hell, maybe" part. But the assumptions are off. No one looking at a resume says, the named scholarship at T2 could have gotten into a much better school but non-named scholarship at Fordham couldn't have. Employers don't know if you are paying sticker. They don't know your LSAT. And you are no more likely to "trick" employers into thinking you got into a better school by going to a T2 instead of T30.

That being said. I am just being argumentative. Because I would do exactly what you did and go to the T2 on a full-ride over Fordham.


There was no scholarship at Fordham. I shouldn't have said "named"; it is unnecessary info that just confuses; sorry. They will know I'm not paying sticker when the scholarship is on my resume; they also know I'm paying the heavily subsidized in-state tuition because everyone in my market knows that it is much cheaper than private school.

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Borhas
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby Borhas » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:37 pm

viking138 wrote:
BenJ wrote:
viking138 wrote:Someone mentioned that median GPAs for law school attending students are typically higher which is definitely true at my school. Median GPA is a 3.2 but the median GPA for those applying to law school is a 3.4 (this is at a lower tier Ivy, not Cornell).

Also, there might be some elite schools with 3.5 GPA medians but I'm pretty certain most have around a 3.3 or less, at least from what I've seen.


Someone calculated this for all of the top 50 or so universities and LACs using the LSAC data at some point. I rather doubt the median GPA is a 3.2 at any Ivy save Princeton, though.


I go to Dartmouth and the median GPA is definitely a 3.2. If you have a 3.58 or higher (approximately) you're in the top 30% of your class.



according to this website:

http://gradeinflation.com/Dartmouth.html

it was 3.42 in 2007

viking138
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby viking138 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:42 pm

Borhas wrote:
viking138 wrote:
BenJ wrote:
viking138 wrote:Someone mentioned that median GPAs for law school attending students are typically higher which is definitely true at my school. Median GPA is a 3.2 but the median GPA for those applying to law school is a 3.4 (this is at a lower tier Ivy, not Cornell).

Also, there might be some elite schools with 3.5 GPA medians but I'm pretty certain most have around a 3.3 or less, at least from what I've seen.


Someone calculated this for all of the top 50 or so universities and LACs using the LSAC data at some point. I rather doubt the median GPA is a 3.2 at any Ivy save Princeton, though.


I go to Dartmouth and the median GPA is definitely a 3.2. If you have a 3.58 or higher (approximately) you're in the top 30% of your class.



according to this website:

http://gradeinflation.com/Dartmouth.html

it was 3.42 in 2007


That's interesting. Our Career Services gives the median GPA as a 3.2 but who knows where the differences in calculations come from. At any rate it's somewhere around (either a bit above or below) a B+ median.

BenJ
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby BenJ » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:43 pm

Borhas wrote:
viking138 wrote:
BenJ wrote:
viking138 wrote:Someone mentioned that median GPAs for law school attending students are typically higher which is definitely true at my school. Median GPA is a 3.2 but the median GPA for those applying to law school is a 3.4 (this is at a lower tier Ivy, not Cornell).

Also, there might be some elite schools with 3.5 GPA medians but I'm pretty certain most have around a 3.3 or less, at least from what I've seen.


Someone calculated this for all of the top 50 or so universities and LACs using the LSAC data at some point. I rather doubt the median GPA is a 3.2 at any Ivy save Princeton, though.


I go to Dartmouth and the median GPA is definitely a 3.2. If you have a 3.58 or higher (approximately) you're in the top 30% of your class.



according to this website:

http://gradeinflation.com/Dartmouth.html

it was 3.42 in 2007


Which pretty much squares with a ~3.6 being top 30%. It would be really weird if only 20% of the class were in the 3.2-3.6 range but a full 30% were above 3.6.

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gossipgirl
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby gossipgirl » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:45 pm

Borhas wrote:
viking138 wrote:
BenJ wrote:
viking138 wrote:Someone mentioned that median GPAs for law school attending students are typically higher which is definitely true at my school. Median GPA is a 3.2 but the median GPA for those applying to law school is a 3.4 (this is at a lower tier Ivy, not Cornell).

Also, there might be some elite schools with 3.5 GPA medians but I'm pretty certain most have around a 3.3 or less, at least from what I've seen.


Someone calculated this for all of the top 50 or so universities and LACs using the LSAC data at some point. I rather doubt the median GPA is a 3.2 at any Ivy save Princeton, though.


I go to Dartmouth and the median GPA is definitely a 3.2. If you have a 3.58 or higher (approximately) you're in the top 30% of your class.



according to this website:

http://gradeinflation.com/Dartmouth.html

it was 3.42 in 2007


It's an unrepresentative source that they're citing. Our median grade reports by the Registrar report median grades for select classes (not all) PLUS individual median grades by class do not tell you the median grade for the entire school. Think about it statistically. I assure you I'm right.

viking138 is right as far as what I've heard at Dartmouth from administrators and Professors. The median GPA fluctuates here between mid 3.2 and low 3.3 depending on the year.

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PDaddy
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby PDaddy » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:46 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
PDaddy wrote: "lower wrung"


:lol: Hahaha


PDaddy wrote:Is it insanity to just want to go to a non-elite school after having gone to Columbia, MIT or Tufts for UG?


Blatant Tufts trolling?


"wrung" = fixed (fwiw, I started this thread at, like, 2:00 am)

Trolling, maybe...but tired of mentioning the same elite/top national schools and ignoring elite liberal arts schools and the rest.
Last edited by PDaddy on Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:47 pm

.
Last edited by prezidentv8 on Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

xyzzzzzzzz
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby xyzzzzzzzz » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:58 pm

:D
Last edited by xyzzzzzzzz on Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby 09042014 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:01 pm

xyzzzzzzzz wrote:this thread kinda smacks of elitism.

top ug ≠ intelligence and hard earned grades.
tier 3 ug ≠ stupid kids with inflated gpas who had a billion years to study for the lsat.

I guess for some it is hard to believe that state schools are filled with smart kids.


Because most state schools aren't totally filled with smart kids. Not all state schools are made the same. UIUC >> Northeastern Illinois University. And even UIUC will have some people who aren't all that smart.

But when you have an LSAT to show roughly how smart the person it that doesn't really matter.

That 3.8 from a TTT shows they can work hard enough to succeed. That 3.3 from the top UG didn't.

dk84
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby dk84 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:06 pm

xyzzzzzzzz wrote:this thread kinda smacks of elitism.

top ug ≠ intelligence and hard earned grades.
tier 3 ug ≠ stupid kids with inflated gpas who had a billion years to study for the lsat.

I guess for some it is hard to believe that state schools are filled with smart kids.



There are state schools filled with smart kids, and that reflects in their rankings- UVA, MICH, UNC, UIUC, UCLA, UC-Berk (hell all the UCs). UGA, because of the Hope Scholarship has become increasingly highly regarded (the intent of the Hope Scholarship was to prevent the brain drain of the kids all going to schools out of state- from what I've heard it has done so very effectively). Smart kids have made UGA a top UG
Last edited by dk84 on Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby PDaddy » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:09 pm

viking138 wrote:
That's interesting. Our Career Services gives the median GPA as a 3.2 but who knows where the differences in calculations come from. At any rate it's somewhere around (either a bit above or below) a B+ median.


2/10 of a point is a huge difference. I also gave some thought to grade inflation when composing my thread. This makes me think that many of the students who go from such schools are the bottom-feeders. Maybe they're smart, or maybe their academic abilities were overestimated coming out of high school. Who knows? I also wonder if lower ranked schools tend to throw more money at those graduates, even if they have lower numbers, because of an assumption that those graduates are still going to be better law students.

Even if so, going from Brown UG to Villanova Law is still a tough sell for me. Is there any data on the average financial aid package of Ivy UG's who go to law school?

To be fair, money must be a big factor sometimes. And there are enough state school grads going to elite law schools to know that there just wouldn't be enough seats for everyone to go from Ivy/elite UG to Ivy/elite Law.

And how does someone score in the top 5-10% nationally on the SAT/ACT (as many of those grads do) and then bomb the LSAT? If standardized test scores don't even predict standardized test scores in a lot of cases, how can they be predictive of 1L law performance?
Last edited by PDaddy on Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

xyzzzzzzzz
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby xyzzzzzzzz » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:20 pm

[ :D
Last edited by xyzzzzzzzz on Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

xyzzzzzzzz
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby xyzzzzzzzz » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:23 pm

.
Last edited by xyzzzzzzzz on Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dk84
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby dk84 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:43 pm

xyzzzzzzzz wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
xyzzzzzzzz wrote:this thread kinda smacks of elitism.

top ug ≠ intelligence and hard earned grades.
tier 3 ug ≠ stupid kids with inflated gpas who had a billion years to study for the lsat.

I guess for some it is hard to believe that state schools are filled with smart kids.


Because most state schools aren't totally filled with smart kids. Not all state schools are made the same. UIUC >> Northeastern Illinois University. And even UIUC will have some people who aren't all that smart.

But when you have an LSAT to show roughly how smart the person it that doesn't really matter.

That 3.8 from a TTT shows they can work hard enough to succeed. That 3.3 from the top UG didn't.


The LSAT is not an IQ test. IQ measures inate ability, the only argument you could make in that respect is MAYBE for those who take it cold having never done a practice test before. It has been argued that the LSAT measures test IQ, but how smart you are is both too ambiguous and dependent on how narrow minded your view of 'smart'. LSAC has said it does have correlation to how people do their first year in law school, but is that even 'smart'?

Bucwild
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby Bucwild » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:48 pm

I feel stupid for attending my UG :(

http://gradeinflation.com/Georgiatech.html

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PDaddy
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby PDaddy » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:50 pm

xyzzzzzzzz wrote:this thread kinda smacks of elitism.

top ug ≠ intelligence and hard earned grades.
tier 3 ug ≠ stupid kids with inflated gpas who had a billion years to study for the lsat.

I guess for some it is hard to believe that state schools are filled with smart kids.


You have to admit that they dynamic of these kids going from Princeton (or Ivy/elite U) to Tennessee (or wherever) is interesting. Yours truly is certainly not an elitist, as I am sure you have seen my posts on lower T1 schools that should be ranked higher (according to educational quality). I even slam YLS in a few threads. And state schools are filled with not only smart kids, but some of the brightest kids on the planet.

To the poster right above, GA Tech is well known to be a great school.

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PDaddy
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby PDaddy » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:55 pm

rando wrote:
PDaddy wrote: "lower wrung"


The phrase is "lower rung," as in "rung on a ladder." :)


Yes...I fixed it. I know that a "rung" is defined as a "step". The "w" was just a typo...late night, u know? lol. One should believe this based on my demonstrated vocabulary. Thanx!

xyzzzzzzzz
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby xyzzzzzzzz » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:02 pm

.
Last edited by xyzzzzzzzz on Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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danr2040
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby danr2040 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:04 pm

Desert Fox wrote:But when you have an LSAT to show roughly how smart the person it that doesn't really matter.


The problem I have with this is that unlike the GRE, the LSAT is not used just to show roughly how smart candidates are. By trying to establish certain 25/50/75th numbers for a class, admissions offices actually use the LSAT to make fine distinctions between candidates.

This is bad for people from top schools who don’t dominate the LSAT, because they are less able to compensate for it with a dominant GPA (I’m thinking like 3.9+). While it may not be more difficult to get an average GPA at a top school because of grade inflation, the better the credentials of your classmates, the less likely it is that you will finish at the top of your class.

Basically, it ends up being the case that someone with a 168/3.8 from a top school has less of a shot at the top law schools than someone with a 171/3.85 from BigStateU, even though they tested within the same LSAT score band and the former student obtained a similar GPA against superior competition. Is there a better way to do admissions? Maybe not, but its not enough to just say the LSAT as it is used now makes everything fair or reasonable.

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akili
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby akili » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:15 pm

My UG isn't really ranked, but it was absolutely the right place for me. In the end, I don't think UG "branding" matters that much when you are going to grad school anyways. I chose the school for the scholarship money and a close-knit community and I don't regret at all. (even though my ACT could've gotten me in to some top schools)

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prezidentv8
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:16 pm

akili wrote:My UG isn't really ranked, but it was absolutely the right place for me. In the end, I don't think UG "branding" matters that much when you are going to grad school anyways. I chose the school for the scholarship money and a close-knit community and I don't regret at all. (even though my ACT could've gotten me in to some top schools)

A little while ago, my Dad mentioned what I told him my strategy was for school when I started college - "Undergrad doesn't matter, I'll find a nice place now, then go to a good grad school."

WIN!




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