Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

From Harvard, etc. to Loyola, etc. Why does it happen?

Poll ended at Wed May 12, 2010 4:58 am

Bad Grades
134
28%
Low LSAT scores
248
53%
Geography
20
4%
Fincancial Concerns
26
6%
Programs
3
1%
School Culture
3
1%
Satisfied w/elite UG degree
13
3%
Some other reason
25
5%
 
Total votes: 472

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MC Southstar
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby MC Southstar » Fri May 07, 2010 9:33 am

Attending an ivy league school does not make you smart, it simply makes you more adept at acting like you're smart and showing off what meager accomplishments you can to supplement your bitter insecurities over being an epic nerd.

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big_blue79
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby big_blue79 » Fri May 07, 2010 10:43 am

Ryou wrote:My point? GPA is a contextual number. The prestige of the UG is one context, but not the only one. And unfortunately all relevant contexts can never be known and adjusted for. Which is why my main point was that the admissions process isn't perfect.


TITCR

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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby 09042014 » Fri May 07, 2010 10:49 am

Ryou wrote:
And I pointed out previously that the LSAT isn't even a good indicator of a certain specific subset of intelligence, but less intelligence in general.


If you don't take the LSAT as rough indicator of intelligence, then you can't take the SAT, and then by what reason can you claim HYP students are smarter than students at other schools.

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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby 09042014 » Fri May 07, 2010 10:50 am

SaintClarence27 wrote:
flcath wrote:
SaintClarence27 wrote:Man, if I had it to do over again, I would do things so much differently.

1) Go to community college for free first 2 years. Ring up the 4.0.

2) Transfer to SIU or EIU; major in history. Ring up the 4.0. Graduate with a minimum 3.9, and very little debt.

3) Work retail a couple years; break into management for the WE; pay off all of my loans.

4) Take the LSAT earlier, before I forgot all of that 'logic' stuff. Apply to schools early.

5) Accepted at NU with $$.

All of this is to say that the UG matters NOT AT ALL. It's about the numbers for the law schools. No law school is going to care that I went to CC and then SIU when my GPA is above median, and no employer is going to care that my UG was from SIU when he hires me out of NU (or better).

This would be an okay plan for med school (except they do care about UG, just not to a degree that keeps up with the increasing difficulty of increasingly good UGs), but dude, LSs don't give a fucking shit about GPA.

Which they're correct not to; it's a TTT stat.

A 3.0 EE degree is a smarter student, by FAR, than a 3.9 poli-sci (or some other shit major) at my UG.


Wow. You are VERY incorrect.


Very incorrect, but I wouldn't doubt that the 3.00 EE does far more work than the 3.9. If you want to know who is smarter, let the LSAT sort it out.

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quetzalcoatl
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby quetzalcoatl » Fri May 07, 2010 11:07 am

Isnt the median LSAT for Harvard UGs a 165 or something (I could be wrong, I just think I heard that somewhere). I guess that means going t14 is still pretty impressive for a Harvard UG. I know if I went to Harvard and ended up at Cornell Law I would be a little pissed though.

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SaintClarence27
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby SaintClarence27 » Fri May 07, 2010 12:32 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
SaintClarence27 wrote:
flcath wrote:
SaintClarence27 wrote:Man, if I had it to do over again, I would do things so much differently.

1) Go to community college for free first 2 years. Ring up the 4.0.

2) Transfer to SIU or EIU; major in history. Ring up the 4.0. Graduate with a minimum 3.9, and very little debt.

3) Work retail a couple years; break into management for the WE; pay off all of my loans.

4) Take the LSAT earlier, before I forgot all of that 'logic' stuff. Apply to schools early.

5) Accepted at NU with $$.

All of this is to say that the UG matters NOT AT ALL. It's about the numbers for the law schools. No law school is going to care that I went to CC and then SIU when my GPA is above median, and no employer is going to care that my UG was from SIU when he hires me out of NU (or better).

This would be an okay plan for med school (except they do care about UG, just not to a degree that keeps up with the increasing difficulty of increasingly good UGs), but dude, LSs don't give a fucking shit about GPA.

Which they're correct not to; it's a TTT stat.

A 3.0 EE degree is a smarter student, by FAR, than a 3.9 poli-sci (or some other shit major) at my UG.


Wow. You are VERY incorrect.


Very incorrect, but I wouldn't doubt that the 3.00 EE does far more work than the 3.9. If you want to know who is smarter, let the LSAT sort it out.



Oh, absolutely. I meant more about the ridiculous LS's don't care about UGPA statement. As for a 3.00 EE degree from Illinois, for instance - it takes MUCH more work than my 3.6 in Elementary Education (except student teaching - that sucked). But my point is that LSs don't seem to care about that. It's all about the number - the higher, the better.

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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby mwazaumoja » Sat May 08, 2010 10:04 am

I didn't pay anything for my ug degree, and went to a state school.

In my mind, no matter where I went to law school would have been okay as long as it was T50 b/c it would still only add on to my undergrad degree. The thing with a Harvard person going to a school like Seton Hall Law School is, despite SH Law being a decent school, it's definitely not as impressive as the BA from Harvard. It kind of makes me wonder what the point of going to Harvard was!

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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby Danger » Mon May 10, 2010 9:36 am

I graduated from Columbia with a really bad GPA. I am an international student, played two varsity sports, member of different clubs etc., but the GPA kept me out of T1 and even T2 schools. Also, I know that some schools dont look at where you went to school when they evaluate your application, tho I am sure it factors in in many places.

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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby reverendt » Mon May 10, 2010 10:39 am

mwazaumoja wrote: The thing with a Harvard person going to a school like Seton Hall Law School is, despite SH Law being a decent school, it's definitely not as impressive as the BA from Harvard. It kind of makes me wonder what the point of going to Harvard was!


The harsh truth is that you're only as good as your last degree.

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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby 09042014 » Mon May 10, 2010 10:43 am

Danger wrote:[strike]I graduated from Columbia with a really bad GPA. I am an international student, played two varsity sports, member of different clubs etc., but the GPA kept me out of T1 and even T2 schools. Also, I know that some schools dont look at where you went to school when they evaluate your application, tho I am sure it factors in in many places.[/strike]


It was your 156 that kept you out of the T1. It was the 2.6 156 combo that kept you out of the T2.

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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby Danger » Mon May 10, 2010 12:47 pm

Danger wrote:
I graduated from Columbia with a really bad GPA. I am an international student, played two varsity sports, member of different clubs etc., but the GPA kept me out of T1 and even T2 schools. Also, I know that some schools dont look at where you went to school when they evaluate your application, tho I am sure it factors in in many places.


It was your 156 that kept you out of the T1. It was the 2.6 156 combo that kept you out of the T2.

not that it matters, but it was 159. And yes, I agree with your comment.

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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby 09042014 » Mon May 10, 2010 12:48 pm

Danger wrote:Danger wrote:
I graduated from Columbia with a really bad GPA. I am an international student, played two varsity sports, member of different clubs etc., but the GPA kept me out of T1 and even T2 schools. Also, I know that some schools dont look at where you went to school when they evaluate your application, tho I am sure it factors in in many places.


It was your 156 that kept you out of the T1. It was the 2.6 156 combo that kept you out of the T2.

not that it matters, but it was 159. And yes, I agree with your comment.


You should really retake.

Danger
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby Danger » Mon May 10, 2010 1:06 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Danger wrote:Danger wrote:
I graduated from Columbia with a really bad GPA. I am an international student, played two varsity sports, member of different clubs etc., but the GPA kept me out of T1 and even T2 schools. Also, I know that some schools dont look at where you went to school when they evaluate your application, tho I am sure it factors in in many places.


It was your 156 that kept you out of the T1. It was the 2.6 156 combo that kept you out of the T2.

not that it matters, but it was 159. And yes, I agree with your comment.


You should really retake.


Yeah, I should. I definitely considered it since I was scoring much higher on my practice tests, but at this point I just want to get the degree as soon as possible. I was also hoping that the schools would take into consideration that I barely spoke English until a few years ago, but it didnt really help much. It is what it is now.

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby of Benito Cereno » Mon May 10, 2010 2:18 pm

Danger wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Danger wrote:Danger wrote:
I graduated from Columbia with a really bad GPA. I am an international student, played two varsity sports, member of different clubs etc., but the GPA kept me out of T1 and even T2 schools. Also, I know that some schools dont look at where you went to school when they evaluate your application, tho I am sure it factors in in many places.


It was your 156 that kept you out of the T1. It was the 2.6 156 combo that kept you out of the T2.

not that it matters, but it was 159. And yes, I agree with your comment.


You should really retake.


Yeah, I should. I definitely considered it since I was scoring much higher on my practice tests, but at this point I just want to get the degree as soon as possible. I was also hoping that the schools would take into consideration that I barely spoke English until a few years ago, but it didnt really help much. It is what it is now.

how did you get into columbia if you barely spoke english a few years ago?

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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby CordeliusX » Mon May 10, 2010 3:14 pm

It's funny because I think elite UG is the key indicator of social prestige...

At least in my mind, someone who went to HYP is "upper crust" possibly even "genius" automatically in my mind, on a SUBCONSCIOUS level. I really don't give a damn from a logical perspective. Yet someone who goes to a T10 law school is a "smart guy" or "hardworking argumentative a-hole." I've never thought of a grad-school grad as being quite the same as UG.

Is this just me?

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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby Danger » Mon May 10, 2010 3:18 pm

of Benito Cereno wrote:
Danger wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Danger wrote:Danger wrote:
I graduated from Columbia with a really bad GPA. I am an international student, played two varsity sports, member of different clubs etc., but the GPA kept me out of T1 and even T2 schools. Also, I know that some schools dont look at where you went to school when they evaluate your application, tho I am sure it factors in in many places.


It was your 156 that kept you out of the T1. It was the 2.6 156 combo that kept you out of the T2.

not that it matters, but it was 159. And yes, I agree with your comment.


You should really retake.


Yeah, I should. I definitely considered it since I was scoring much higher on my practice tests, but at this point I just want to get the degree as soon as possible. I was also hoping that the schools would take into consideration that I barely spoke English until a few years ago, but it didnt really help much. It is what it is now.

how did you get into columbia if you barely spoke english a few years ago?


I had perfect Math SATs, published written works, and a silver medal in the sport I played. I spoke English, but not good enough to write a decent paper, so I was really struggling with grades for the first year or two. After that I just stopped caring. I am more than fine English proficiency wise right now, but I think it was still a slight disadvantage when it comes to standardized tests.

I hope it is clear that I am not trying to start an argument here, I am just saying why someone from an IVY league school might be able to get into a top ranked law school.

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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby 09042014 » Mon May 10, 2010 4:18 pm

CordeliusX wrote:It's funny because I think elite UG is the key indicator of social prestige...

At least in my mind, someone who went to HYP is "upper crust" possibly even "genius" automatically in my mind, on a SUBCONSCIOUS level. I really don't give a damn from a logical perspective. Yet someone who goes to a T10 law school is a "smart guy" or "hardworking argumentative a-hole." I've never thought of a grad-school grad as being quite the same as UG.

Is this just me?


Yes. There is no reason to assume HYP undergrad is genius. I'm far more impressed by getting into a difficult grad program.

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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon May 10, 2010 4:23 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
CordeliusX wrote:It's funny because I think elite UG is the key indicator of social prestige...

At least in my mind, someone who went to HYP is "upper crust" possibly even "genius" automatically in my mind, on a SUBCONSCIOUS level. I really don't give a damn from a logical perspective. Yet someone who goes to a T10 law school is a "smart guy" or "hardworking argumentative a-hole." I've never thought of a grad-school grad as being quite the same as UG.

Is this just me?


Yes. There is no reason to assume HYP undergrad is genius. I'm far more impressed by getting into a difficult grad program.


Also, is it really on a subconscious level?

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ConMan345
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby ConMan345 » Mon May 10, 2010 4:51 pm

If it's any consolation, most of the people at my HYPS (guess which one!) were pretty dumb. A decent chunk of people I'd say were very smart to brilliant (top 5% in humanities, maybe top 10% in hard science/engineering (I'm not familiar enough with other areas)), and most of the rest are hard workers. I'd certainly find brilliant people at lower ranked schools, but fewer per capita in almost every case.

Edit: stellar numbers are more like prereqs for elite UGs, never a guarantee; the rest is rather wishy-washy.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby DerrickRose » Mon May 10, 2010 4:58 pm

Yeah, to me top UG students are more go-getters than they are geniuses. You don't get into HYP these days without a bit of Tracy Flick going on.

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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby flcath » Mon May 10, 2010 5:49 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
SaintClarence27 wrote:
flcath wrote:
SaintClarence27 wrote:Man, if I had it to do over again, I would do things so much differently.

1) Go to community college for free first 2 years. Ring up the 4.0.

2) Transfer to SIU or EIU; major in history. Ring up the 4.0. Graduate with a minimum 3.9, and very little debt.

3) Work retail a couple years; break into management for the WE; pay off all of my loans.

4) Take the LSAT earlier, before I forgot all of that 'logic' stuff. Apply to schools early.

5) Accepted at NU with $$.

All of this is to say that the UG matters NOT AT ALL. It's about the numbers for the law schools. No law school is going to care that I went to CC and then SIU when my GPA is above median, and no employer is going to care that my UG was from SIU when he hires me out of NU (or better).

This would be an okay plan for med school (except they do care about UG, just not to a degree that keeps up with the increasing difficulty of increasingly good UGs), but dude, LSs don't give a fucking shit about GPA.

Which they're correct not to; it's a TTT stat.

A 3.0 EE degree is a smarter student, by FAR, than a 3.9 poli-sci (or some other shit major) at my UG.


Wow. You are VERY incorrect.


Very incorrect, but I wouldn't doubt that the 3.00 EE does far more work than the 3.9. If you want to know who is smarter, let the LSAT sort it out.

Yeah, this is more accurate. I should note, however, that kids at my UG tend to be attrited from the hard sciences/engineering in droves their freshmen and sophomore years, switching to lib arts.

CordeliusX
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Re: Harvard/Princeton (etc) UG winding up at T2 Law schools

Postby CordeliusX » Mon May 10, 2010 5:56 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:Also, is it really on a subconscious level?


Mostly, yes.

I didn't grow up knowing about grad school in any substantive way. Besides not realizing it was its own entire "industry," my idea of higher schooling ended with the concept of "go to college". You try your best to go to Ivy-level schools, round off your knowledge of the world, and suddenly you're "educated." Grad school was for old people who want to fluff about because they aren't successful at work. :oops: So in my mind, UG was where you are meant to be molded into a renaissance man, a learned citizen, valuable contributor to society, etc. It was the ultimate cap on your formative years :roll:

So in my mind, college was what "made" you who you are; grad school was just (unnecessary) icing on the cake.

I have since come to view most of this as pure BS




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