Notre Dame or WUSTL Forum

[thebookcollector]

I have narrowed my law school search down to two, and I'd like the TLS opinion before I make a final decision.

The final two are Notre Dame with 90k or WUSTL with 81k. I want to practice in Kansas City, but I'd be okay with St. Louis or Chicago. I'd like to do Big Law or a clerkship after graduation. I'm very debt averse, and Notre Dame (due to lower tuition and COL) would be about 18k cheaper.

I love both schools, and I actually went to undergraduate at WUSTL.

(I know Kansas City isn't a big presence on these boards, but by way of background information, neither school has a huge presence here. Most attorneys are from Mizzou or UMKC or KU... I don't want to attend any of those schools. Both ND and WUSTL had the Big KC firms for OCI.)

Your thoughts?

[Thomas Jefferson]

IMHO, this can go either way. I voted ND for lower cost and resume diversity.

[ppa840]

As much as I like washu, I have to say ND. I think resume diversity means a lot

[flcath]

Treat it like choosing a UG. The schools and offers are so close that you can make the decision based off of stupid bullshit like "school culture", weather, proximity to family, or whatever else floats your boat. I think resume diversity is thoroughly unimportant for LS, but it's at least as important as the aforesaid factors.

Everyone knows WUSTL is over-ranked, but unlike most other schools that that gets said about, WUSTL won't be dropping down anytime soon. They work hard to be over-ranked.

[thebookcollector]

Treat it like choosing a UG. The schools and offers are so close that you can make the decision based off of stupid bullshit like "school culture", weather, proximity to family, or whatever else floats your boat. I think resume diversity is thoroughly unimportant for LS, but it's at least as important as the aforesaid factors.

Everyone knows WUSTL is over-ranked, but unlike most other schools that that gets said about, WUSTL won't be dropping down anytime soon. They work hard to be over-ranked.

You're right... they do work VERY hard to be over-ranked... and in the long-term, they have the endowment to buy their way up (fourth largest endowment per student in the country) and the willingness to use it (as evidenced by them essentially buying the Vanderbilt dean and Career Services staff). Notre Dame doesn't seem to care as much about their medians or gaming the US News rankings, which means in the long term they'll fall. So I do see the two schools diverging... but to me, rankings aren't nearly as important as they are to most people on this board. (I know a lot of lawyers, and believe it or not, most of them have no idea where most schools fall in US News.)

I like everybody's thoughts on resume diversity. I already have access to WUSTL alumni events and networking opportunities... it'd be nice to have a second top university.

[Rock Chalk]

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[chadwick218]

Surprisingly, WUSTL doesn't place terriby well in KC ... self-selection, perhaps. I would take ND and bank on ties to KC. Do you have any other higher ranked schools that you are currently considering?

[Rock Chalk]

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[flcath]

Treat it like choosing a UG. The schools and offers are so close that you can make the decision based off of stupid bullshit like "school culture", weather, proximity to family, or whatever else floats your boat. I think resume diversity is thoroughly unimportant for LS, but it's at least as important as the aforesaid factors.

Everyone knows WUSTL is over-ranked, but unlike most other schools that that gets said about, WUSTL won't be dropping down anytime soon. They work hard to be over-ranked.

You're right... they do work VERY hard to be over-ranked... and in the long-term, they have the endowment to buy their way up (fourth largest endowment per student in the country) and the willingness to use it (as evidenced by them essentially buying the Vanderbilt dean and Career Services staff). Notre Dame doesn't seem to care as much about their medians or gaming the US News rankings, which means in the long term they'll fall. So I do see the two schools diverging... but to me, rankings aren't nearly as important as they are to most people on this board. (I know a lot of lawyers, and believe it or not, most of them have no idea where most schools fall in US News.)

I like everybody's thoughts on resume diversity. I already have access to WUSTL alumni events and networking opportunities... it'd be nice to have a second top university.

What irritates me about WUSTL is that they have the same rep with their UG (again, good school, but #12? I mean look at some of the schools that are ranked below them: Hopkins, Cornell, Berkeley...). Also, my parents are physicians, and guess what? Same rep in the medical field (#3 in the country, but the highest MCAT medians). I actually attended a talk by your chancellor at my UG. He was supposed to talk about some alt. energy research he'd carried over from MIT. Instead we got an hour-long virtual tour/promotional slideshow for WUSTL followed by about 20 minutes of chemistry.

ND'll do fine. It'll never slip out of the T25 in the minds' of hiring partners, but Jesus WUSTL is shark-like. You know they're just salivating at the UC system tuition hike right now. They'll probably show up at a UCLA ASD and hand out full-rides next year.

[Tomato Stevens]

Treat it like choosing a UG. The schools and offers are so close that you can make the decision based off of stupid bullshit like "school culture", weather, proximity to family, or whatever else floats your boat. I think resume diversity is thoroughly unimportant for LS, but it's at least as important as the aforesaid factors.

Everyone knows WUSTL is over-ranked, but unlike most other schools that that gets said about, WUSTL won't be dropping down anytime soon. They work hard to be over-ranked.

You're right... they do work VERY hard to be over-ranked... and in the long-term, they have the endowment to buy their way up (fourth largest endowment per student in the country) and the willingness to use it (as evidenced by them essentially buying the Vanderbilt dean and Career Services staff). Notre Dame doesn't seem to care as much about their medians or gaming the US News rankings, which means in the long term they'll fall. So I do see the two schools diverging... but to me, rankings aren't nearly as important as they are to most people on this board. (I know a lot of lawyers, and believe it or not, most of them have no idea where most schools fall in US News.)

I like everybody's thoughts on resume diversity. I already have access to WUSTL alumni events and networking opportunities... it'd be nice to have a second top university.

What irritates me about WUSTL is that they have the same rep with their UG (again, good school, but #12? I mean look at some of the schools that are ranked below them: Hopkins, Cornell, Berkeley...). Also, my parents are physicians, and guess what? Same rep in the medical field (#3 in the country, but the highest MCAT medians). I actually attended a talk by your chancellor at my UG. He was supposed to talk about some alt. energy research he'd carried over from MIT. Instead we got an hour-long virtual tour/promotional slideshow for WUSTL followed by about 20 minutes of chemistry.

ND'll do fine. It'll never slip out of the T25 in the minds' of hiring partners, but Jesus WUSTL is shark-like. You know they're just salivating at the UC system tuition hike right now. They'll probably show up at a UCLA ASD and hand out full-rides next year.

God, I hope they have rejected you, otherwise your extreme bitterness is laughable.

[CanadianWolf]

I'm not qualified to offer any advice other than my opinion on this topic. My best guess is that Notre Dame is the better choice because it is better known nationally, lower cost for you & expands your academic experience from one campus to two.

[chadwick218]

Surprisingly, WUSTL doesn't place terriby well in KC ... self-selection, perhaps.

You sure about this? Just wondering if you know this from personal experience or what, because I interned in a KC law firm for a while and this was definitely not what I saw.

In terms of sheet #'s, WUSTL certainly places more atty's in KC than ND (self-selection), but I believe that your chances of landing with a KC firm are certainly higher coming out of ND. Quite simply, you stick out a bit more as relatively few people from ND look to practice law in KC, but the ND networks in KC certainly exist.

[thebookcollector]

Surprisingly, WUSTL doesn't place terriby well in KC ... self-selection, perhaps.

You sure about this? Just wondering if you know this from personal experience or what, because I interned in a KC law firm for a while and this was definitely not what I saw.

I'm a CPA, and I have several law firm clients in KC, and for one reason or another, there just aren't a lot of WUSTL people out here. I do suspect self-selection... KC Big Law pays much less than other cities.

[thebookcollector]

Treat it like choosing a UG. The schools and offers are so close that you can make the decision based off of stupid bullshit like "school culture", weather, proximity to family, or whatever else floats your boat. I think resume diversity is thoroughly unimportant for LS, but it's at least as important as the aforesaid factors.

Everyone knows WUSTL is over-ranked, but unlike most other schools that that gets said about, WUSTL won't be dropping down anytime soon. They work hard to be over-ranked.

You're right... they do work VERY hard to be over-ranked... and in the long-term, they have the endowment to buy their way up (fourth largest endowment per student in the country) and the willingness to use it (as evidenced by them essentially buying the Vanderbilt dean and Career Services staff). Notre Dame doesn't seem to care as much about their medians or gaming the US News rankings, which means in the long term they'll fall. So I do see the two schools diverging... but to me, rankings aren't nearly as important as they are to most people on this board. (I know a lot of lawyers, and believe it or not, most of them have no idea where most schools fall in US News.)

I like everybody's thoughts on resume diversity. I already have access to WUSTL alumni events and networking opportunities... it'd be nice to have a second top university.

What irritates me about WUSTL is that they have the same rep with their UG (again, good school, but #12? I mean look at some of the schools that are ranked below them: Hopkins, Cornell, Berkeley...). Also, my parents are physicians, and guess what? Same rep in the medical field (#3 in the country, but the highest MCAT medians). I actually attended a talk by your chancellor at my UG. He was supposed to talk about some alt. energy research he'd carried over from MIT. Instead we got an hour-long virtual tour/promotional slideshow for WUSTL followed by about 20 minutes of chemistry.

ND'll do fine. It'll never slip out of the T25 in the minds' of hiring partners, but Jesus WUSTL is shark-like. You know they're just salivating at the UC system tuition hike right now. They'll probably show up at a UCLA ASD and hand out full-rides next year.

God, I hope they have rejected you, otherwise your extreme bitterness is laughable.

Whie I do think their law school is over-ranked, I don't think the UG is... the law school doesn't have the scholarly research to back up their ranking... the UG does. And the medical school REALLY does.

[thebookcollector]

Surprisingly, WUSTL doesn't place terriby well in KC ... self-selection, perhaps. I would take ND and bank on ties to KC. Do you have any other higher ranked schools that you are currently considering?

Not that I'm considering. I got into some higher-ranked schools, but I'm not a big rankings person, and I'd chose a T25 with nearly full tuition over a T14 at sticker anyday. It seems the only time that'll make a big difference is if you want to be in academia or be a SCOTUS clerk... and I'm smart enough to know that I'm not smart enough for either (and neither are most people on this board... sorry, its just a matter of statistics).

I remember as a prospective UG accounting major everybody stressing about the "go to" schools to get into the Big Four (the accounting version of Big Law). It mattered... but as long as you didn't go to a really crappy school, you could get a job there. And once in the firm, it really didn't matter... the top performing associate of my Big Four starting class was from the worst school of us all.

[flcath]

God, I hope they have rejected you, otherwise your extreme bitterness is laughable.

Whie I do think their law school is over-ranked, I don't think the UG is... the law school doesn't have the scholarly research to back up their ranking... the UG does. And the medical school REALLY does.

Well, the medical school is really, really good. But they are still known for stat-whoring (frowned upon in the MS world).

My bitterness comes not from being rejected personally, but from being an alumnus of an institution that doesn't have enough $flow$ to keep up.

[chadwick218]

Not that I'm considering. I got into some higher-ranked schools, but I'm not a big rankings person, and I'd chose a T25 with nearly full tuition over a T14 at sticker anyday. It seems the only time that'll make a big difference is if you want to be in academia or be a SCOTUS clerk... and I'm smart enough to know that I'm not smart enough for either (and neither are most people on this board... sorry, its just a matter of statistics).

If you are looking to go back to KC, I think that you are perfectly fine coming out of either ND / WUSTL compared to the likes of NU, Michigan, Virginia, or Duke. If you were targeting Chicago, D.C., or New York, then I think that things would be very different and would strongly advocate attending a T-14 simply so that you would have the opportunity to interview.

[camstant]

If you're talking KC, I'm sure with both of these schools it's all about self-selection. Most people going to ND or WUSTL are looking for biglaw. Those who don't get it probably don't automatically head to KC, so I'm guessing whatever stats there are about # of attorneys in KC from each school doesn't necessarily correlate with opportunity.

And, whatever people are saying about WUSTL being ranked too high because of how much money they have.... I mean, come on, if you took that factor out of the rankings I'm sure you would see plenty more changes than WUSTL dropping to "where they deserve to be". Unfortunately, money talks.

[thebookcollector]

I think most people are choosing based on ND creating a more diverse resume and ND having more of a national reputation.

Thanks for your input, everybody... it'll be interesting to see where both schools are on April 15 (the US News release date).

[kams]

I'm actually from KC, and I was facing the same decision as you are now, except that I wanted to leave the midwest, so I chose BU. I do know several people who went from WUSTL to kc, and to be honest it's all self-selection. Not a lot of people want to go to kc. I think in general WUSTL and ND are about even, but I would think if you really wanna go to kc, WUSTL would be the better choice. when considering WUSTL, I talked with a hiring partner from Shook, Hardy and Bacon, and he gave me the impression that they want people who show they will stay in kc, out of fear of them getting trained and jumping ship. Perhaps staying in Missouri would give them that impression. But it's all conjecture, as is everything else.

[thelawguy777]

Wash U. is a great school no doubt.

But ND, football, the amazing collegiate experience, watch Rudy and go ND!

[DerrickRose]

I just can't imagine ND doing as well in KC as WUSTL.

[flcath]

I just can't imagine ND doing as well in KC as WUSTL.

Is there anything prestigious enough to matter there? I.e., does KC have Biglaw?