Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

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goosey
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Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby goosey » Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:09 am

I deposited at Brooklyn last week--Ive been researching their reputation, how many alums are working in big firms, etc--reputation-wise much of what I read was on tls and I am majorly depressed right now. Is Brooklyn *that* bad a choice? Are there any circumstances that make it a wise choice? Is most of the brooklyn hate a result of the cost--and if one were attending for free, would that make it a better choice?

I guess its a little odd to be trying to get some kind of reassurance about one of the biggest decisions of my life off a message board, but really..bls gets it bad on tls and its kind of scaring me.

King
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby King » Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:12 am

I think you'll be fine. Just study hard in law school:D

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Great Satchmo
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby Great Satchmo » Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:43 am

Unless the school has a TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE reputation in the real working world, you'll be fine.

Brooklyn is a fine school, just work hard (advice for any school).

There is a lot on this board that will make you feel like crap about your choice - which is unwarranted and unrealistic. Just remember this board is not real life.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby Kohinoor » Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:53 am

goosey wrote:I deposited at Brooklyn last week--Ive been researching their reputation, how many alums are working in big firms, etc--reputation-wise much of what I read was on tls and I am majorly depressed right now. Is Brooklyn *that* bad a choice? Are there any circumstances that make it a wise choice? Is most of the brooklyn hate a result of the cost--and if one were attending for free, would that make it a better choice?

I guess its a little odd to be trying to get some kind of reassurance about one of the biggest decisions of my life off a message board, but really..bls gets it bad on tls and its kind of scaring me.

Yes. Also, the anti-Brooklyn cabal is just disproportionately large.

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goosey
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby goosey » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:07 am

thanks, that helps.

I'm excited about law school and excited to start at brooklyn, but all the doom and gloom surrounding job prospects kind of worries me. Then again, having gone through the entire application process I am sometimes amazed with how much authority people present such utterly false information on here at times. So I guess I just have to keep that in mind

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kalvano
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:09 am

Not a single person here knows what the legal market will look like in 3 years. It will be tough for it to be worse though.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:21 am

Goosey, is your scholarship guaranteed? If it is, I think even Reasonable Man would give you his blessing, considering what you want to do and your unique situation. I personally dislike BLS for a variety of reasons, but a free legal education in NYC is difficult to pass up. I'll be $220,000 in debt by the time I finish, and that is a frightening prospect. I followed my heart and I've been very happy with my choice, but I can't fault you for doing what you've done.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:26 am

I really don't know that much about BLS, but if you ever read on JDU you'll leave there thinking it is one of the biggest TTTs out there. There are quite a few BLS grads on JDU as well, which can only be a bad thing.

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goosey
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby goosey » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:30 am

OperaSoprano wrote:Goosey, is your scholarship guaranteed? If it is, I think even Reasonable Man would give you his blessing, considering what you want to do and your unique situation. I personally dislike BLS for a variety of reasons, but a free legal education in NYC is difficult to pass up. I'll be $220,000 in debt by the time I finish, and that is a frightening prospect. I followed my heart and I've been very happy with my choice, but I can't fault you for doing what you've done.


contingent on being in the top 40% of the class after 1L..if I fall below top 40, but within the top 50, I will lose 20% of my scholarship. If I fall below top 50 but above top 65%, I will lose half (or something like that)--and if after that I wind up being in the top 40% again by the end of 2L, I will get my entire scholarship back for 3L. Thats pretty much the standard for bls scholarships. It seems fair enough--I'm sure getting top 40% isnt going to be easy in the least, but it seems do-able. And above median for 80% of a full ride is really not bad at all.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:41 am

goosey wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:Goosey, is your scholarship guaranteed? If it is, I think even Reasonable Man would give you his blessing, considering what you want to do and your unique situation. I personally dislike BLS for a variety of reasons, but a free legal education in NYC is difficult to pass up. I'll be $220,000 in debt by the time I finish, and that is a frightening prospect. I followed my heart and I've been very happy with my choice, but I can't fault you for doing what you've done.


contingent on being in the top 40% of the class after 1L..if I fall below top 40, but within the top 50, I will lose 20% of my scholarship. If I fall below top 50 but above top 65%, I will lose half (or something like that)--and if after that I wind up being in the top 40% again by the end of 2L, I will get my entire scholarship back for 3L. Thats pretty much the standard for bls scholarships. It seems fair enough--I'm sure getting top 40% isnt going to be easy in the least, but it seems do-able. And above median for 80% of a full ride is really not bad at all.


Talk to them. Get them to remove it. They do give some scholarships without strings attached, or so I've heard, and you shouldn't have to have that hanging over your head. I do know they are serious about yanking the money if you fall below the cutoff. I don't want you to have to worry about this, so please talk to them.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:47 am

Yeah, top 40% may not sound bad right now, but any scholarship condition is going to have your hands shaking style worried before going into those finals your first semester. There's really nothing worse that can happen to you then attending a lower ranked school for the money and then having your scholly yanked. My scholly last year had a 2.5 stipulation (probably bottom 1/3) and I was pretty worried about it going into exams 1st semester. I think if anything it motivated me to do really well, which allowed me to transfer up, but nonetheless it is a shitty feeling to have going into finals.

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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby champ33 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:55 am

goosey wrote:I deposited at Brooklyn last week--Ive been researching their reputation, how many alums are working in big firms, etc--reputation-wise much of what I read was on tls and I am majorly depressed right now. Is Brooklyn *that* bad a choice? Are there any circumstances that make it a wise choice? Is most of the brooklyn hate a result of the cost--and if one were attending for free, would that make it a better choice?

I guess its a little odd to be trying to get some kind of reassurance about one of the biggest decisions of my life off a message board, but really..bls gets it bad on tls and its kind of scaring me.


i think most of shit Brooklyn gets here is tied to the cost. if you are going for very little, which i vaguely remember you are from another thread, i really think you can wash away a lot of the worry other people try to give you on this board about brooklyn. they have a ton of great clinics, huge class selection, and i personally loved the building, and hear good things about housing. living in that area for school will be amazing, especially if you can work hard and don't have to worry too much about debt.

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romothesavior
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:23 am

OperaSoprano wrote:Goosey, is your scholarship guaranteed? If it is, I think even Reasonable Man would give you his blessing, considering what you want to do and your unique situation. I personally dislike BLS for a variety of reasons, but a free legal education in NYC is difficult to pass up. I'll be $220,000 in debt by the time I finish, and that is a frightening prospect. I followed my heart and I've been very happy with my choice, but I can't fault you for doing what you've done.


Jesus, OS. $220,000 in debt? From a non-T14? That is scary. That makes me feel a lot better about only taking out 90k in loans... I've been freaking out the last few weeks.

And to OP... a free or close to free law degree is always a good idea. I would definitely try to remove that stipulation, though. I know I wouldn't want that over my head come exam time.

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superserial
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby superserial » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:36 am

goosey wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:Goosey, is your scholarship guaranteed? If it is, I think even Reasonable Man would give you his blessing, considering what you want to do and your unique situation. I personally dislike BLS for a variety of reasons, but a free legal education in NYC is difficult to pass up. I'll be $220,000 in debt by the time I finish, and that is a frightening prospect. I followed my heart and I've been very happy with my choice, but I can't fault you for doing what you've done.


contingent on being in the top 40% of the class after 1L..if I fall below top 40, but within the top 50, I will lose 20% of my scholarship. If I fall below top 50 but above top 65%, I will lose half (or something like that)--and if after that I wind up being in the top 40% again by the end of 2L, I will get my entire scholarship back for 3L. Thats pretty much the standard for bls scholarships. It seems fair enough--I'm sure getting top 40% isnt going to be easy in the least, but it seems do-able. And above median for 80% of a full ride is really not bad at all.


After seeing how arbitrary grades were first semester, I'm going to say, "Don't do it."

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:48 am

romothesavior wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:Goosey, is your scholarship guaranteed? If it is, I think even Reasonable Man would give you his blessing, considering what you want to do and your unique situation. I personally dislike BLS for a variety of reasons, but a free legal education in NYC is difficult to pass up. I'll be $220,000 in debt by the time I finish, and that is a frightening prospect. I followed my heart and I've been very happy with my choice, but I can't fault you for doing what you've done.


Jesus, OS. $220,000 in debt? From a non-T14? That is scary. That makes me feel a lot better about only taking out 90k in loans... I've been freaking out the last few weeks.

And to OP... a free or close to free law degree is always a good idea. I would definitely try to remove that stipulation, though. I know I wouldn't want that over my head come exam time.


Yes. I would make this choice again. I am living out a dream, and I knew it would involve sacrifice. I've been very lucky so far, and I've had some wonderful opportunities. I will service my debt by my school's LRAP and IBR until it is forgiven. In short, Fordham is worth the debt to me, and almost one year in, I'm glad I chose the school where I would be happiest.

This is not to minimize Goosey's choice. I want her to be happy as well. If she goes to BLS, that stipulation needs to be removed. Superserial is correct.

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BigA
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby BigA » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:52 am

XxSpyKEx wrote:There's really nothing worse that can happen to you then attending a lower ranked school for the money and then having your scholly yanked. My scholly last year had a 2.5 stipulation (probably bottom 1/3) and I was pretty worried about it going into exams 1st semester. I think if anything it motivated me to do really well, which allowed me to transfer up, but nonetheless it is a shitty feeling to have going into finals.


Seems to me like paying sticker at a place like Fordham would be a worse feeling going into finals. What if you end up bottom 1/3 after exams? You've already sunk in at least 40k. Do you pay for another two years at this point? At least with the lower-ranked full scholly you can drop out without any debt if you do poorly. As an 0L, this is kinda what's swimming through my head at this point. Maybe I'm off about something.

edit:typo
Last edited by BigA on Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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goosey
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby goosey » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:12 am

BigA wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:There's really nothing worse that can happen to you then attending a lower ranked school for the money and then having your scholly yanked. My scholly last year had a 2.5 stipulation (probably bottom 1/3) and I was pretty worried about it going into exams 1st semester. I think if anything it motivated me to do really well, which allowed me to transfer up, but nonetheless it is a shitty feeling to have going into finals.


Seems to me like paying sticker at a place like Fordham at sticker would be a worse feeling going into finals. What if you end up bottom 1/3 after exams? You've already sunk in at least 40k. Do you pay for another two years at this point? At least with the lower-ranked full scholly you can drop out without any debt if you do poorly. As an 0L, this is kinda what's swimming through my head at this point. Maybe I'm off about something.


thats exactly what I am thinking too. If I am going to do so poorly that I lose my scholarship, then there is just something to be said about my performance as a law student. Losing partial money may just be a result of arbitrary grades, but landing in the bottom 35% to lose your entire scholarship seems like one should just cut their losses and drop out. And I cant imagine somebody in the bottom 35% of their class at brooklyn would perform much better at any other school

I had to negotiate my scholarship to full---I'm so scared if I try negotiating more they'll be like "ok we dont want you anymore"
What exactly should I do or say to try and get the stipulation removed?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:24 pm

BigA wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:There's really nothing worse that can happen to you then attending a lower ranked school for the money and then having your scholly yanked. My scholly last year had a 2.5 stipulation (probably bottom 1/3) and I was pretty worried about it going into exams 1st semester. I think if anything it motivated me to do really well, which allowed me to transfer up, but nonetheless it is a shitty feeling to have going into finals.


Seems to me like paying sticker at a place like Fordham at sticker would be a worse feeling going into finals. What if you end up bottom 1/3 after exams? You've already sunk in at least 40k. Do you pay for another two years at this point? At least with the lower-ranked full scholly you can drop out without any debt if you do poorly. As an 0L, this is kinda what's swimming through my head at this point. Maybe I'm off about something.


I was terrified going into finals, but not because of the money. I was waitlisted for so long that I wanted to prove that I belonged and my admission was not an accident or a mistake. I also wanted to make my family proud, especially after my father said he would be shocked if I made top half. I don't think anyone likes being in debt, but for me, this is so much more than a financial investment. I'm also comforted by the fact that sub-median Fordham students do get jobs, even if they aren't necessarily the flashy jobs TLSers would like. I'm not wed to any particular outcome, and I am extremely grateful for a wonderful start to law school. Happily, my father has stopped the hurtful comments.

My issue with BLS is this: Goosey has a 166 now. If she gives up attending a better school, BLS will get to report her numbers, but they can still yank her scholarship if something goes wrong, no matter what the cause. My little sister had a lung infection her freshman year of college and missed a fair amount of class. I got sick myself when I was a junior, which is why I had a huge discrepancy between my LSAC and degree GPAs. My point is that I believe Goosey will do very well, but there is a chance she could lose her scholarship for some reason wholly beyond her control, and she will have passed up schools with better career prospects. If she picks BLS for the money, the school owes her a promise that that money will not evaporate. BLS will long since have benefited from her LSAT score, which they certainly would like. Moreover, I have seen them offer people more and more money.

Goosey, you have got to go in and bargain with them if you are serious about doing this!

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:32 pm

BigA wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:There's really nothing worse that can happen to you then attending a lower ranked school for the money and then having your scholly yanked. My scholly last year had a 2.5 stipulation (probably bottom 1/3) and I was pretty worried about it going into exams 1st semester. I think if anything it motivated me to do really well, which allowed me to transfer up, but nonetheless it is a shitty feeling to have going into finals.


Seems to me like paying sticker at a place like Fordham at sticker would be a worse feeling going into finals. What if you end up bottom 1/3 after exams? You've already sunk in at least 40k. Do you pay for another two years at this point? At least with the lower-ranked full scholly you can drop out without any debt if you do poorly. As an 0L, this is kinda what's swimming through my head at this point. Maybe I'm off about something.


The problem is so few people that do badly actually act rationally and drop out after their first year of law school. My guess is that these people are either highly emotionally attached to the idea of becoming a lawyer, or alternatively, delusional about their lack of job prospects at graduation.

Fordham is a bit pricey, so I'll exclude it from my following statement (because you would be out $70K at the end of a year). But if you honestly feel you can go into law school with the "I'm going to try this out for a year and risk the $X it's going to cost me, and if I fail to be in X% of the class, I'll drop out" attitude, then I think someone could rationally enter even a t3 law school at sticker and have it be a good decision (as long as you recognize that there is a 99% chance you won't make top 1% and won't succeed). Because if you don't make the X% of the class it takes for it to pay off in terms of finding a job that will allow you to comfortably repay your loans, then you drop out. While something like $40k is no laughing matter, it is something that could easily be paid off by something with a non-bullshit undergrad degree (read: not liberal arts BA) within a 2-3 years. $150-200K is a whole other story, and not because $150K-200K is necessarily a lot of money, but because the 8% interest you are going to pay on it is a lot of money (i.e. on a $200K loan you will have to pay roughly $16K your first year just to cover the interest, and then add in whatever you pay on the principal).

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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby blsingindisguise » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:05 pm

Assuming you are not giving up a decent-paying job to do it, you're talking about a fairly low-risk proposition. You're not likely to find some other great career opportunity right now, and your debt will be low. You'll probably make top 40% or at least median as long as you work for it.

That said, a BLS degree does not guarantee you ANYTHING these days. I don't mean it doesn't guarantee you biglaw, I mean it doesn't guarantee you a job. So just go in ready to work hard and manage your expectations.

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goosey
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Re: Is Brooklyn really the kiss of death its made out to be?

Postby goosey » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:19 pm

OS: good point! I will go in and speak to somebody in person. I hope it works out.

thanks everyone else for your thoughts. Yeah I understand that doing well as a lawyer really depends on being at the very top of my class--and that most of my peers will be aiming for the same exact thing.




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