Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

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qualster
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby qualster » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:52 am

kalvano wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:Someone interested in working for the DOJ needs to go to a much better school than American to have a chance at that. The entire T14 is full of kids wanting to work for the DOJ, folks at American don't stand a chance.



Not to be too nitpicky, but you can go to work for the DOJ even if you go to a crappy school, it just depends on how good you are at your job.


What?! T14 opens doors. Nothing else does. Geez, Kalvano.

& Teoeo,

American is not going to be good enough to land a job with the DOJ because a T14 student has said so. American might as well be Ave Maria. Don't you guys get it yet?

Only T14 matters. T14, yo. T14.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:06 am

qualster wrote:American is not going to be good enough to land a job with the DOJ because a T14 student has said so. American might as well be Ave Maria. Don't you guys get it yet?

Only T14 matters. T14, yo. T14.

:roll:

It's not about possibility, but potential. I said more than once it's possible to make DOJ Honors from a school like American. The thing is that we're talking about opportunities, and putting American above UNC because it's possible to get DOJ at American is foolish and stupid. You can do it if you're at the very top of your class there, and technically you have the same possibility at UNC, even though nobody did it last year. This is especially not a wise move ITE to make, since even more people are applying for government jobs with law firms hiring less, making these positions even more competitive right now.

This is like telling someone to decide on UVA because they can be a SCOTUS clerk from there, which is technically true, but equally stupid.

qualster
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby qualster » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:14 am

vanwinkle wrote:
qualster wrote:American is not going to be good enough to land a job with the DOJ because a T14 student has said so. American might as well be Ave Maria. Don't you guys get it yet?

Only T14 matters. T14, yo. T14.

:roll:

It's not about possibility, but potential. I said more than once it's possible to make DOJ Honors from a school like American. The thing is that we're talking about opportunities, and putting American above UNC because it's possible to get DOJ at American is foolish and stupid. You can do it if you're at the very top of your class there, and technically you have the same possibility at UNC, even though nobody did it last year. This is especially not a wise move ITE to make, since even more people are applying for government jobs with law firms hiring less, making these positions even more competitive right now.

This is like telling someone to decide on UVA because they can be a SCOTUS clerk from there, which is technically true, but equally stupid.


"Someone interested in working for the DOJ needs to go to a much better school than American to have a chance at that. The entire T14 is full of kids wanting to work for the DOJ, folks at American don't stand a chance." -Vanwinkle

So you have said in this thread that American grads have no chance, but you've also said that it's possible. So you've contradicted yourself but your position is basically that American grads won't get DOJ jobs. Now, I would expect a message board master such as yourself to try to split hairs between what it means to have no chance and yet still have a possibility, so I guess that's next.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:17 pm

qualster wrote:"Someone interested in working for the DOJ needs to go to a much better school than American to have a chance at that. The entire T14 is full of kids wanting to work for the DOJ, folks at American don't stand a chance." -Vanwinkle

So you have said in this thread that American grads have no chance, but you've also said that it's possible. So you've contradicted yourself but your position is basically that American grads won't get DOJ jobs. Now, I would expect a message board master such as yourself to try to split hairs between what it means to have no chance and yet still have a possibility, so I guess that's next.

Kind of ironic you talk about splitting hairs, because that's exactly what you're doing.

This entire thread is about choosing schools at a 0L and your employment options from there. Going into American, without knowing what your grades will be, your odds of getting this job are so low that you don't really stand a chance at it going in, especially ITE when the DOJ is getting more flooded than ever with applications.

The only way this makes any sense at all to consider as a 0L is if you're planning on being at the very top of your class going in, and you're guaranteeing that the DOJ will keep hiring people from American every year, which are both incredibly dumb assertions to make. I never said that nobody ever makes it, and I pointed out that someone may have made it if they were at the top of their class. That is not the kind of thing a 0L should be considering because they have zero way of knowing whether or not that could be them in three years. Even if you did end up at the top of your class, it's possible you still wouldn't get it, especially ITE, which is prompting more and more top kids at top schools to flee to the job safety and decent pay of federal government jobs. It's entirely possible the DOJ might hire 0 folks from American next year even if they hired a couple last year. You can't say the odds of getting into the DOJ are at least 1/485 because that implies a guarantee they'll take even one, and unless you work for the DOJ and do their hiring, you can't do that. You have to consider the possibility that in any given year it could be 0/485, or in other words, zero chance that year.

You can keep splitting hairs about what "don't stand a chance" means, or you can accept the entirely valid point I was making that the odds of getting into the DOJ from American are so low, and the competition for those jobs so high against students from higher-ranked schools, that it's not something a 0L should realistically consider in choosing a school. It's not the kind of possibility that's realistic or certain enough that you should be banking 3 years and potentially $200K of your life on it at any school ranked that low.

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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby 2009 Prospective » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:20 pm

evilgenius wrote:
Zannie1986 wrote:oh man! Well, it's a good thing I'm not interested in working for the DOJ then....OR IS IT! hahahaha shoot i don't know if that translates into making sense over the internet...thought i was a comic genius.
I DO actually think i've heard the difference between that distinction, interest vs. service, but i'm glad someone asked cause i was a deer in headlights for a min there.
there IS a difference between say, american and seton hall (70something)/ northeastern (90something) though right? heh, gotta feel assured that american's rank/rep is worth giving up scholarship money from the only other schools into me right now...thanks for input.
Luv,
Zannie


It really depends on your goals. If you want to work in the DC gov't or non-profit sectors or if you ever want Big Law, American is your best bet.

If you're thinking about public interest (or service? lol) more broadly, you may want to take on as little debt as possible. I'm not sure if American has an LRAP program, but if this is your goal, I would go for Northeastern over American. Public Interest is NE's strong suit, they have mandatory internship requirements, which will enable you to network, and (i'm guessing) they gave you money.

If the choice is between Seton Hall and American though, I'd say go to American.


I would have to disagree here. American has a strong public interest program and a better reputation as a whole. Northeastern is ridiculously expensive and doesn't seem very generous with scholarships. Personally, I wouldn't recommend Northeastern over WCL unless there was a substantial cost difference.

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Borhas
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby Borhas » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:23 pm

Teoeo wrote:I dont want to get sucked back into this, but you guys might find this interesting

http://www.justice.gov/oarm/arm/hp/lawschools.htm


goes against conventional wisdom, does not compute

qualster
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby qualster » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:27 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
qualster wrote:"Someone interested in working for the DOJ needs to go to a much better school than American to have a chance at that. The entire T14 is full of kids wanting to work for the DOJ, folks at American don't stand a chance." -Vanwinkle

So you have said in this thread that American grads have no chance, but you've also said that it's possible. So you've contradicted yourself but your position is basically that American grads won't get DOJ jobs. Now, I would expect a message board master such as yourself to try to split hairs between what it means to have no chance and yet still have a possibility, so I guess that's next.

Kind of ironic you talk about splitting hairs, because that's exactly what you're doing.

This entire thread is about choosing schools at a 0L and your employment options from there. Going into American, without knowing what your grades will be, your odds of getting this job are so low that you don't really stand a chance at it going in, especially ITE when the DOJ is getting more flooded than ever with applications.

The only way this makes any sense at all to consider as a 0L is if you're planning on being at the very top of your class going in, and you're guaranteeing that the DOJ will keep hiring people from American every year, which are both incredibly dumb assertions to make. I never said that nobody ever makes it, and I pointed out that someone may have made it if they were at the top of their class. That is not the kind of thing a 0L should be considering because they have zero way of knowing whether or not that could be them in three years. Even if you did end up at the top of your class, it's possible you still wouldn't get it, especially ITE, which is prompting more and more top kids at top schools to flee to the job safety and decent pay of federal government jobs. It's entirely possible the DOJ might hire 0 folks from American next year even if they hired a couple last year. You can't say the odds of getting into the DOJ are at least 1/485 because that implies a guarantee they'll take even one, and unless you work for the DOJ and do their hiring, you can't do that. You have to consider the possibility that in any given year it could be 0/485, or in other words, zero chance that year.

You can keep splitting hairs about what "don't stand a chance" means, or you can accept the entirely valid point I was making that the odds of getting into the DOJ from American are so low, and the competition for those jobs so high against students from higher-ranked schools, that it's not something a 0L should realistically consider in choosing a school. It's not the kind of possibility that's realistic or certain enough that you should be banking 3 years and potentially $200K of your life on it at any school ranked that low.


Nah, you've contradicted yourself. I've never made any claims either way regarding American job prospects. I can't wait for your next well constructed three or four paragraph response.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:32 pm

qualster wrote:Nah, you've contradicted yourself. I've never made any claims either way regarding American job prospects. I can't wait for your next well constructed three or four paragraph response.

You're making claims about what I've said about American job prospects. Nothing I've said is contradictory, and even if you still believe that it is, it's contradictory between "0 of 485" and "maybe 1 or 2 of 485", which isn't enough of a difference to be worth arguing about. Either way it's a very tiny chance and not worth considering as a 0L, and you're still splitting hairs rather than acknowledging the overall point is still sound either way.

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Teoeo
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby Teoeo » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:36 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
qualster wrote:Nah, you've contradicted yourself. I've never made any claims either way regarding American job prospects. I can't wait for your next well constructed three or four paragraph response.

You're making claims about what I've said about American job prospects. Nothing I've said is contradictory, and even if you still believe that it is, it's contradictory between "0 of 485" and "maybe 1 or 2 of 485", which isn't enough of a difference to be worth arguing about. Either way it's a very tiny chance and not worth considering as a 0L, and you're still splitting hairs rather than acknowledging the overall point is still sound either way.



Come on man, wouldn't it be easier just to just alter your original statement rather than try to argue a ridiculous point. It is obvious to everyone reading this that you contradicted yourself, and by arguing you are making yourself look silly as well as making it hard for you to simply retract your original statement as an exaggeration.

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Teoeo
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby Teoeo » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:43 pm

Since I have to go I am going to leave my own chart-like counter argument to whatever huge response you leave.

Your original position: Students at American have "no chance"

Obviously no means none = 0 chance

Someone presented evidence to show that this very year at LEAST one American student was chosen through the DOJ honors program (see my link above), I am not sure how many because it doesn't say. Notice, however that schools that are as low down as T3 were hired from though (Golden Gate).

Your new position: Student at American have a very small chance.

A small chance and no chance are mutually exclusive -----> you contradict yourself

Your response: A small chance is virtually the same as no chance

Rebuttal: Sorry bro, that's just wrong, http://www.dictionary.com

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baboon309
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby baboon309 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:43 pm

Teoeo wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
qualster wrote:Nah, you've contradicted yourself. I've never made any claims either way regarding American job prospects. I can't wait for your next well constructed three or four paragraph response.

You're making claims about what I've said about American job prospects. Nothing I've said is contradictory, and even if you still believe that it is, it's contradictory between "0 of 485" and "maybe 1 or 2 of 485", which isn't enough of a difference to be worth arguing about. Either way it's a very tiny chance and not worth considering as a 0L, and you're still splitting hairs rather than acknowledging the overall point is still sound either way.



Come on man, wouldn't it be easier just to just alter your original statement rather than try to argue a ridiculous point. It is obvious to everyone reading this that you contradicted yourself, and by arguing you are making yourself look silly as well as making it hard for you to simply retract your original statement as an exaggeration.


+1 What a clown!

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evilgenius
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby evilgenius » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:47 pm

2009 Prospective wrote:
evilgenius wrote:
Zannie1986 wrote:oh man! Well, it's a good thing I'm not interested in working for the DOJ then....OR IS IT! hahahaha shoot i don't know if that translates into making sense over the internet...thought i was a comic genius.
I DO actually think i've heard the difference between that distinction, interest vs. service, but i'm glad someone asked cause i was a deer in headlights for a min there.
there IS a difference between say, american and seton hall (70something)/ northeastern (90something) though right? heh, gotta feel assured that american's rank/rep is worth giving up scholarship money from the only other schools into me right now...thanks for input.
Luv,
Zannie


It really depends on your goals. If you want to work in the DC gov't or non-profit sectors or if you ever want Big Law, American is your best bet.

If you're thinking about public interest (or service? lol) more broadly, you may want to take on as little debt as possible. I'm not sure if American has an LRAP program, but if this is your goal, I would go for Northeastern over American. Public Interest is NE's strong suit, they have mandatory internship requirements, which will enable you to network, and (i'm guessing) they gave you money.

If the choice is between Seton Hall and American though, I'd say go to American.


I would have to disagree here. American has a strong public interest program and a better reputation as a whole. Northeastern is ridiculously expensive and doesn't seem very generous with scholarships. Personally, I wouldn't recommend Northeastern over WCL unless there was a substantial cost difference.


I think we actually agree. I'm only recommending Northeastern over American if there is a major cost difference. If NE isnt giving $ go to American

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twert
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby twert » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:56 pm

Teoeo wrote:Since I have to go I am going to leave my own chart-like counter argument to whatever huge response you leave.

Your original position: Students at American have "no chance"

Obviously no means none = 0 chance

Someone presented evidence to show that this very year at LEAST one American student was chosen through the DOJ honors program (see my link above), I am not sure how many because it doesn't say. Notice, however that schools that are as low down as T3 were hired from though (Golden Gate).

Your new position: Student at American have a very small chance.

A small chance and no chance are mutually exclusive -----> you contradict yourself

Your response: A small chance is virtually the same as no chance

Rebuttal: Sorry bro, that's just wrong, http://www.dictionary.com

this is ridiculous. so his first statement was too strong. ok. can we just agree that 1 or 2 people making the DOJ honors program per year is not a great reason to chose a school?

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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby umichgrad » Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:07 pm

American does well in DC, most especially in public sector (see what I did there?). UNC does well in North Carolina. OP, it really depends where you want to be. And yeah kids at American fight for jobs, but none of the schools below pretty much YHS allow you to coast your way into V50 employment. Plenty of American grads end up in prestigious public sector employment in DC.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby GATORTIM » Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:07 pm

ITT 1L's leverage their ONE year at ONE school as an authority on all schools and likely employment of all 0L's. I have significantly cut back my TLS visits b/c the utter ridiculousness of some assertions on this sight make me vomit in my mouth.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:07 pm

Teoeo wrote:Your original position: Students at American have "no chance"

My actual position:

vanwinkle wrote:Someone interested in working for the DOJ needs to go to a much better school than American to have a chance at that.

Is this true? Yes. Why? Because they could end up with zero chance at American, ITE. And I elaborate on this point below. Note that it doesn't say NOBODY FROM AMERICAN HAS EVER HAD A CHANCE AT DOJ EVER EVER. What I did say was this:
vanwinkle wrote:The entire T14 is full of kids wanting to work for the DOJ, folks at American don't stand a chance.

I elaborated on this below, but it's about the current state of things. ITE there are tons of T14 kids shooting for the DOJ now. Do I expect American grads to get pwned by this? Yes. Does this mean people who went to American in the past never had a chance at American? No. When you brought up your friend who got a job at the DOJ, I never said it was impossible for him to have gotten it. I did say he must have been one a few to overcome extremely rare odds, odds so rare that ITE they might be completely foreclosed by a flood of T14 kids, which I still don't believe American kids stand a chance against.

Teoeo wrote:Someone presented evidence to show that this very year at LEAST one American student was chosen through the DOJ honors program (see my link above)

Even before this, I acknowledged it was possible that someone could have gotten chosen for DOJ from American if they were at the very top of their class. Before this, I also elaborated that my position was that American sends at most a couple students to the DOJ every year:

vanwinkle wrote:DOJ Honors is incredibly competitive, and even at the T14 you have to do well to be considered for it. I'm not denying there's a chance, but it's so small that it doesn't justify going there. You can get to the DOJ from American, but you shouldn't go to American to get to the DOJ.

Low past placement, which might (and might not, but might) turn into no placement at all ITE. From the beginning I was willing to clarify that was what I meant. It could happen, but the odds are ridiculously low, and some years (especially these years, ITE) it might not happen at all.

And, again, I said all that before you "presented evidence" that the DOJ had hired someone from American. That didn't change how I feel about anything, unlike what you're implying.

Teoeo wrote:Your new position: Student at American have a very small chance.

How is this my new position? Look, this is what I actually said:

vanwinkle wrote:Even if you did end up at the top of your class, it's possible you still wouldn't get it, especially ITE, which is prompting more and more top kids at top schools to flee to the job safety and decent pay of federal government jobs. It's entirely possible the DOJ might hire 0 folks from American next year even if they hired a couple last year. You can't say the odds of getting into the DOJ are at least 1/485 because that implies a guarantee they'll take even one, and unless you work for the DOJ and do their hiring, you can't do that. You have to consider the possibility that in any given year it could be 0/485, or in other words, zero chance that year.

It's possible ITE that zero kids will get hired by the DOJ from American next year, even if they have in the past. That's consistent with what I said earlier, about American hiring at most a couple kids, and possibly none at all.

Does this mean that (as I originally said) someone should go to a higher-ranked school if they want a chance at the DOJ? YES.

So, my original position: Someone who wants a chance at the DOJ should go elsewhere (because they might not get any chance from American ITE).

My "new" position: Someone who wants a chance at the DOJ should go elsewhere, because they might have no chance at American ITE.

How is this contradictory? It's highly pessimistic, and I'll admit to that, but when someone is talking about a decision to attend a school at a cost of $200,000, I encourage they take the most pessimistic view. Either way this is all a waste of time and doesn't help OP very much.

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kalvano
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby kalvano » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:36 pm

twert wrote:this is ridiculous. so his first statement was too strong. ok. can we just agree that 1 or 2 people making the DOJ honors program per year is not a great reason to chose a school?



How do we know it's one or two?

Just curious.

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Shlonster
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby Shlonster » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:50 pm

Teoeo wrote:I dont want to get sucked back into this, but you guys might find this interesting

http://www.justice.gov/oarm/arm/hp/lawschools.htm


Do I see a Cooley in there? Also, this thread is ridiculously stupid. You don't get much for winning an argument on the internet, kids.

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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby GATORTIM » Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:37 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Teoeo wrote:Your original position: Students at American have "no chance"

My actual position:

vanwinkle wrote:Someone interested in working for the DOJ needs to go to a much better school than American to have a chance at that.

Is this true? Yes. Why? Because they could end up with zero chance at American, ITE. And I elaborate on this point below. Note that it doesn't say NOBODY FROM AMERICAN HAS EVER HAD A CHANCE AT DOJ EVER EVER. What I did say was this:
vanwinkle wrote:The entire T14 is full of kids wanting to work for the DOJ, folks at American don't stand a chance.

I elaborated on this below, but it's about the current state of things. ITE there are tons of T14 kids shooting for the DOJ now. Do I expect American grads to get pwned by this? Yes. Does this mean people who went to American in the past never had a chance at American? No. When you brought up your friend who got a job at the DOJ, I never said it was impossible for him to have gotten it. I did say he must have been one a few to overcome extremely rare odds, odds so rare that ITE they might be completely foreclosed by a flood of T14 kids, which I still don't believe American kids stand a chance against.

Teoeo wrote:Someone presented evidence to show that this very year at LEAST one American student was chosen through the DOJ honors program (see my link above)

Even before this, I acknowledged it was possible that someone could have gotten chosen for DOJ from American if they were at the very top of their class. Before this, I also elaborated that my position was that American sends at most a couple students to the DOJ every year:

vanwinkle wrote:DOJ Honors is incredibly competitive, and even at the T14 you have to do well to be considered for it. I'm not denying there's a chance, but it's so small that it doesn't justify going there. You can get to the DOJ from American, but you shouldn't go to American to get to the DOJ.

Low past placement, which might (and might not, but might) turn into no placement at all ITE. From the beginning I was willing to clarify that was what I meant. It could happen, but the odds are ridiculously low, and some years (especially these years, ITE) it might not happen at all.

And, again, I said all that before you "presented evidence" that the DOJ had hired someone from American. That didn't change how I feel about anything, unlike what you're implying.

Teoeo wrote:Your new position: Student at American have a very small chance.

How is this my new position? Look, this is what I actually said:

vanwinkle wrote:Even if you did end up at the top of your class, it's possible you still wouldn't get it, especially ITE, which is prompting more and more top kids at top schools to flee to the job safety and decent pay of federal government jobs. It's entirely possible the DOJ might hire 0 folks from American next year even if they hired a couple last year. You can't say the odds of getting into the DOJ are at least 1/485 because that implies a guarantee they'll take even one, and unless you work for the DOJ and do their hiring, you can't do that. You have to consider the possibility that in any given year it could be 0/485, or in other words, zero chance that year.

It's possible ITE that zero kids will get hired by the DOJ from American next year, even if they have in the past. That's consistent with what I said earlier, about American hiring at most a couple kids, and possibly none at all.

Does this mean that (as I originally said) someone should go to a higher-ranked school if they want a chance at the DOJ? YES.

So, my original position: Someone who wants a chance at the DOJ should go elsewhere (because they might not get any chance from American ITE).

My "new" position: Someone who wants a chance at the DOJ should go elsewhere, because they might have no chance at American ITE.

How is this contradictory? It's highly pessimistic, and I'll admit to that, but when someone is talking about a decision to attend a school at a cost of $200,000, I encourage they take the most pessimistic view. Either way this is all a waste of time and doesn't help OP very much.


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newyorklaw23
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby newyorklaw23 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:18 pm

kalvano wrote:
Teoeo wrote:I dont want to get sucked back into this, but you guys might find this interesting

http://www.justice.gov/oarm/arm/hp/lawschools.htm




Wait, you mean prestigious programs and opportunities are available to people outside the T14?

That's crazy talk.



According to that list the DOJ hired someone from Cooley.....i'm not an anti-Cooley troll or anything but that does. not. compute.

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Borhas
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Re: Is a school ranked in the 30s about = to one in the 40s?

Postby Borhas » Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:32 pm

holy shit vanwinkle,

here's what your argument should be

1. "I exaggerated to assert a point"
2. "That website doesn't have hard numbers to back up just how many from the non-T-14 schools actually got in"
3. some sort of empirical evidence




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