BigLaw: Fordham>Brooklyn>Cardozo>U Wash.>Seton>Mason Forum

[aPosseAdEsse]

What:
A survey of alumni employment in NLJ 250 firms (“Big Law”) according to official online contact lists

Schools:
University of Washington School of Law, Seattle;
Fordam University School of Law, New York City;
George Mason University School of Law, Arlington (D.C. Metro);
Seton Hall University Law School, Newark;
Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, New York City;
Brooklyn Law School; New York City

Methodology:
I simply mined the official websites of NJL250 firms based out of relevant legal markets (Seattle, Newark, New York City, Washington D.C.), which I accessed through the following site: http://www.ilrg.com/nlj250/office/desc/3 . I did not count a firm in the survey if its website did not allow for a reliable search of its attorneys by law school.

RESULTS:
Washington D.C.
UW: 25
Fordham: 149
GMU: 112
Seton Hall: 40
Cardozo: 81
Brooklyn: 78
Seattle
UW: 183
Fordham: 32
GMU: 7
Seton Hall: 15
Cardozo: 6
Brooklyn: 9
New Jersey
UW: 0
Fordham: 36
GMU: 1
Seton Hall: 90
Cardozo: 4
Brooklyn: 6
New York
UW: 38
Fordham: 905
GMU: 35
Seton Hall: 86
Cardozo: 275
Brooklyn: 382
TOTAL
UW: 246
Fordham: 1122
GMU: 155
Seton Hall:231
Cardozo: 366
Brooklyn: 475

Strengths:
1. Objective analysis of employment prospects at large firms in big legal markets
2. Simple to make comparisons

Weaknesses:
1. Nominal employment figures do not account for:
a. School class size (e.g. Advantages, Fordham & Brooklyn)
b. Age of school (e.g. Advantages, again, Fordham & Brooklyn)
c. Self selection bias for employment location
2. East Coast employment bias, e.g. New York City is a secondary market for Seton Hall, but NYC is not a secondary market for the University of Washington. If Los Angeles based firms were included in the survey, UW would appear to do comparatively better than it does against Seton Hall in this survey.
3. Survey accounts for attorneys working for big firms, but not necessarily for attorneys working for big salaries (“Big law” doesn’t necessarily equal “market salary”)
4. Survey does not account for employment prospects outside of big firm work (P.I., government, boutique, etc.) (obviously)

Schools at a Glance:

University of Washington: U.S. News 2010: #30; Acceptance rate: 21%; Enrollment: 180; Founded: 1889

Fordam University: U.S. News 2010: #30; Acceptance rate: 24%; Enrollment: 470; Founded: 1905

George Mason U.: U.S. News 2010: #41; Acceptance rate: 17%; Enrollment: 248; Founded: 1972

Seton Hall U.: U.S. News 2010: #77; Acceptance rate: 36%; Enrollment: 362; Founded: 1951

Cardozo Yeshiva U.: U.S. News 2010: #49; Acceptance rate: 29%; Enrollment: 332; Founded: 1976

Brooklyn Law School: U.S. News 2010: #61; Acceptance rate: 29%; Enrollment: 493; Founded 1901

--ImageRemoved--

Conclusions:
(Nothing too surprising, but worthy of note)
1. If you’re interested in *NYC*[edit] “Big Law,” and you didn’t get into a T-14, go to Fordham. (Which also happens to out compete Mason Law in D.C.)
2. If you’re deciding between Cardozo and Brooklyn, just take whichever is more affordable. If that’s Brooklyn, don’t fret over the fact that it’s ranked below Cardozo.
3. A degree from UW is not highly portable to the East Coast, but it is possible to do.
4. A degree from GMU is not well suited for BigLaw employment prospects.
5. Seton Hall outperforms its reputation on the internet, even in NYC, but you had better be prepared to stay in Newark (or commute to Newark via PATH train).

I hope this was helpful for some of you!

Last Note: I changed the thread title to include greater than signs just to prompt reactions. Because of the weaknesses inherent in conclusions based on this data, mainly the ones explained above, I don’t think it’s fair to say Brooklyn is definitively better than Cardozo for BigLaw placement, etc.

[aPosseAdEsse]

Edited to highlight results, for clarity.

[chicoalto0649]

Edited to highlight results, for clarity.

Bored much?

And as a future Fordham Law alumnist.....well, I wont critique the poll or your methodology (not that I am good at that thing).

[aPosseAdEsse]

Edited to highlight results, for clarity.

Bored much?

And as a future Fordham Law alumnist.....well, I wont critique the poll or your methodology (not that I am good at that thing).

Hahaha, yes, I am.

[romothesavior]

Lol wut?

Why on earth were these the schools you compared? You gave a lot of very useful information, and for that, I thank you. I just wonder why these are the schools you used? Are these schools you are considering? Or did you just pick randomly out of a hat?

And your conclusion "If you can't go T14 go to Fordham" is kinda odd. In this very unscientific study, Fordham beat out a bunch of average T1 schools and some T2 schools in big law placement? Shocking. I'm not knocking Fordham, because it seems like a great school that outperforms its ranking (it is ranked too low this year at 30 to begin with). I'm just questioning what the purpose of this study is, and why these are the schools you picked?

I'd say if you want biglaw and you can't go T14, go to Vanderbilt or UCLA. But they weren't included in your study... Why?

And FYI, I'm not personally attacking you, I'm just genuinely curious what this is all about.

[Aberzombie1892]

Well if you are bored, you should at least do more worthwhile comparisons:

i.e. Fordham/Brooklyn/Cardozo/Hofstra/CUNY/SUNY/Hofstra/Syracuse/Albany/etc.

or a bunch of T1 private schools

or heck, even government friendly schools like Case Western v. George Mason (both put a relatively small amount of their classes into private practice).

Regardless, a job well done.

[aPosseAdEsse]

Lol wut?

Why on earth were these the schools you compared? You gave a lot of very useful information, and for that, I thank you. I just wonder why these are the schools you used? Are these schools you are considering? Or did you just pick randomly out of a hat?

And your conclusion "If you can't go T14 go to Fordham" is kinda odd. In this very unscientific study, Fordham beat out a bunch of average T1 schools and some T2 schools in big law placement? Shocking. I'm not knocking Fordham, because it seems like a great school that outperforms its ranking (it is ranked too low this year at 30 to begin with). I'm just questioning what the purpose of this study is, and why these are the schools you picked?

I'd say if you want biglaw and you can't go T14, go to Vanderbilt or UCLA. But they weren't included in your study... Why?

And FYI, I'm not personally attacking you, I'm just genuinely curious what this is all about.

You're right; the selection of schools is effectively arbitrary for everyone but me. I didn't include Vandy and UCLA out of laziness, since I'm not considering those schools. Also, you're right that one of my conclusions over reached, so I qualified it better in an edit.

Well if you are bored, you should at least do more worthwhile comparisons:

i.e. Fordham/Brooklyn/Cardozo/Hofstra/CUNY/SUNY/Hofstra/Syracuse/Albany/etc.

or a bunch of T1 private schools

or heck, even government friendly schools like Case Western v. George Mason (both put a relatively small amount of their classes into private practice).

Regardless, a job well done.

Those would be useful comparisons. I definitely invite you or anyone else to add to the spreadsheet. I will upload the excel sheet when I figure out which site to use for that/after I go eat a late dinner.


Thanks for the feedback! I did waste a lot of (read:probably too much) time on this, so responses are def. appreciated.

[champ33]

if you could do this for all the rest of the schools, that would be awesome. good job so far.

[OperaSoprano]

Wow, I am impressed that we have alumni working in Seattle, of all places. I don't think anyone is shocked that Fordham places way above its rank, though it's nice to see numerical confirmation of this fact. OP, if you have time, could you please do this for all the NYC schools, from CLS down to Pace/Touro? I think that would be quite informative, and a useful comparison to make. Obviously no one applies to the whole spectrum, but as an academic exercise, it would be interesting to see where the numbers taper off.

[bernie shmegma]

Lol wut?

Why on earth were these the schools you compared? You gave a lot of very useful information, and for that, I thank you. I just wonder why these are the schools you used? Are these schools you are considering? Or did you just pick randomly out of a hat?

And your conclusion "If you can't go T14 go to Fordham" is kinda odd. In this very unscientific study, Fordham beat out a bunch of average T1 schools and some T2 schools in big law placement? Shocking. I'm not knocking Fordham, because it seems like a great school that outperforms its ranking (it is ranked too low this year at 30 to begin with). I'm just questioning what the purpose of this study is, and why these are the schools you picked?

I'd say if you want biglaw and you can't go T14, go to Vanderbilt or UCLA. But they weren't included in your study... Why?

And FYI, I'm not personally attacking you, I'm just genuinely curious what this is all about.

Not Vanderbilt or UCLA over Fordham for NY big law though...

I am curious to know why Rutgers-Newark wasn't thrown in there with its equivalent NY regionals.

[erniesto]

Wow, I am impressed that we have alumni working in Seattle, of all places. I don't think anyone is shocked that Fordham places way above its rank, though it's nice to see numerical confirmation of this fact. OP, if you have time, could you please do this for all the NYC schools, from CLS down to Pace/Touro? I think that would be quite informative, and a useful comparison to make. Obviously no one applies to the whole spectrum, but as an academic exercise, it would be interesting to see where the numbers taper off.

I'm going to invert this and say I think its shocking that Fordturkey is ranked so low compared to its alumni network/placement.

[bernie shmegma]

Wow, I am impressed that we have alumni working in Seattle, of all places. I don't think anyone is shocked that Fordham places way above its rank, though it's nice to see numerical confirmation of this fact. OP, if you have time, could you please do this for all the NYC schools, from CLS down to Pace/Touro? I think that would be quite informative, and a useful comparison to make. Obviously no one applies to the whole spectrum, but as an academic exercise, it would be interesting to see where the numbers taper off.

That would be a great study. Throw Newark in there too though. Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.

[chicoalto0649]

Wow, I am impressed that we have alumni working in Seattle, of all places. I don't think anyone is shocked that Fordham places way above its rank, though it's nice to see numerical confirmation of this fact. OP, if you have time, could you please do this for all the NYC schools, from CLS down to Pace/Touro? I think that would be quite informative, and a useful comparison to make. Obviously no one applies to the whole spectrum, but as an academic exercise, it would be interesting to see where the numbers taper off.

I'm going to invert this and say I think its shocking that Fordturkey is ranked so low compared to its alumni network/placement.

--ImageRemoved--

[bernie shmegma]

Wow, I am impressed that we have alumni working in Seattle, of all places. I don't think anyone is shocked that Fordham places way above its rank, though it's nice to see numerical confirmation of this fact. OP, if you have time, could you please do this for all the NYC schools, from CLS down to Pace/Touro? I think that would be quite informative, and a useful comparison to make. Obviously no one applies to the whole spectrum, but as an academic exercise, it would be interesting to see where the numbers taper off.

I'm going to invert this and say I think its shocking that Fordturkey is ranked so low compared to its alumni network/placement.

Let's see how the prospect of change feels for TLSers.... Can Fordprosciutto revolutionize the T14 at least within the first 5 years of being in its new facility?

Take the baton: Responses must include a new and original Ford________

[chicoalto0649]

Wow, I am impressed that we have alumni working in Seattle, of all places. I don't think anyone is shocked that Fordham places way above its rank, though it's nice to see numerical confirmation of this fact. OP, if you have time, could you please do this for all the NYC schools, from CLS down to Pace/Touro? I think that would be quite informative, and a useful comparison to make. Obviously no one applies to the whole spectrum, but as an academic exercise, it would be interesting to see where the numbers taper off.

I'm going to invert this and say I think its shocking that Fordturkey is ranked so low compared to its alumni network/placement.

Let's see how the prospect of change feels for TLSers.... Can Fordprosciutto revolutionize the T14 at least within the first 5 years of being in its new facility?

Take the baton: Responses must include a new and original Ford________

Fordtucky can have my tuition $ (??)

[romothesavior]

Wow, I am impressed that we have alumni working in Seattle, of all places. I don't think anyone is shocked that Fordham places way above its rank, though it's nice to see numerical confirmation of this fact. OP, if you have time, could you please do this for all the NYC schools, from CLS down to Pace/Touro? I think that would be quite informative, and a useful comparison to make. Obviously no one applies to the whole spectrum, but as an academic exercise, it would be interesting to see where the numbers taper off.

I'm going to invert this and say I think its shocking that Fordturkey is ranked so low compared to its alumni network/placement.

Let's see how the prospect of change feels for TLSers.... Can Fordprosciutto revolutionize the T14 at least within the first 5 years of being in its new facility?

Take the baton Ford________

No. They cannot.

[OperaSoprano]

This makes me unhappy, unless we are talking about Fordtofu or Fordseitan. But yes, the school has been under ranked for ages. It's a true peer of BU/BC/Emory, and belongs in the 19-22 range by job placement, which is generally what applicants care most about. Peer rankings are icing, but I want to get a job.

[chicoalto0649]

Fordjamon

Fordjambon

Fordhampshire

[bernie shmegma]

I wonder if schools like Vanderbilt, UCLA, Texas, Wash U do as well in DC as Fordcanadianbacon.

THIS JUST IN: Fordcapicola to replace Cornell in T14 by 2016.

[aPosseAdEsse]

Wow, I am impressed that we have alumni working in Seattle, of all places. I don't think anyone is shocked that Fordham places way above its rank, though it's nice to see numerical confirmation of this fact. OP, if you have time, could you please do this for all the NYC schools, from CLS down to Pace/Touro? I think that would be quite informative, and a useful comparison to make. Obviously no one applies to the whole spectrum, but as an academic exercise, it would be interesting to see where the numbers taper off.

The survey is organized by the cities out of which the firms are based, not by the cities in which the attorneys are actually working. E.g., most of those Fordham alumni in the Seattle column are actually working in NYC. Most of the Seton Hall alumni in the Seattle column are working in NYC or Newark. I know that's not exactly how the information is presented, so your interpretation is very understandable. Sure enough, nearly all the University of Washington alumni in the Seattle column are actually working in Seattle.

To be clear, I'm not code savvy, and I didn't engineer any sort of web spider to create this table. I actually clicked and counted names! Since I've made the only comparisons I've cared to look at, and since I'm bored of it, I won't be working on this more. But I absolutely recommend someone else put in the legwork to make more comparisons.

I am curious to know why Rutgers-Newark wasn't thrown in there with its equivalent NY regionals.

Only for the sole reason that I didn't happen to apply there. I agree it would make for an interesting comparison.

[quickquestionthanks]

The FordyNeiners broke my heart....wanted to live in Manhattan

Looks like San Francisco is my last hope for the big city life.

There must be some way you can turn those nominal statistics into something more useful, say, by converting the raw numbers into a percentage of their alumni population (which might be more meaningful than current class) or just class size.

Very cool though

[OperaSoprano]

Wow, I am impressed that we have alumni working in Seattle, of all places. I don't think anyone is shocked that Fordham places way above its rank, though it's nice to see numerical confirmation of this fact. OP, if you have time, could you please do this for all the NYC schools, from CLS down to Pace/Touro? I think that would be quite informative, and a useful comparison to make. Obviously no one applies to the whole spectrum, but as an academic exercise, it would be interesting to see where the numbers taper off.

The survey is organized by the cities out of which the firms are based, not by the cities in which the attorneys are actually working. E.g., most of those Fordham alumni in the Seattle column are actually working in NYC. Most of the Seton Hall alumni in the Seattle column are working in NYC or Newark. I know that's not exactly how the information is presented, so your interpretation is very understandable. Sure enough, nearly all the University of Washington alumni in the Seattle column are actually working in Seattle.

To be clear, I'm not code savvy, and I didn't engineer any sort of web spider to create this table. I actually clicked and counted names! Since I've made the only comparisons I've cared to look at, and since I'm bored of it, I won't be working on this more. But I absolutely recommend someone else put in the legwork to make more comparisons.

I am curious to know why Rutgers-Newark wasn't thrown in there with its equivalent NY regionals.

Only for the sole reason that I didn't happen to apply there. I agree it would make for an interesting comparison.

'K, your clarification makes a lot more sense. It's possible that there are Fordham alumni in Seattle, since I know there are some in San Francisco and Palo Alto, but it seems like it would be a huge change from NYC. The school wants us to GTFO after we graduate, but most of us (97% by the last survey) would rather stay here. Around 88% actually do, so there is some movement.

If I have time, I'll do a comparison by # of firms at OCI, since that's much faster, and NALP recently updated numbers.

[romothesavior]

Not Vanderbilt or UCLA over Fordham for NY big law though...

I don't think this is as sure of a thing as you make it sound, especially in looking at Vandy vs. Fordham.

I wonder if schools like Vanderbilt, UCLA, Texas, Wash U do as well in DC as Fordcanadianbacon.

THIS JUST IN: Fordcapicola to replace Cornell in T14 by 2016.

And I don't think Fordham as strong in D.C. as you seem to imply, and certainly not as strong as Vanderbilt, WUSTL, or UCLA. Vanderbilt has traditionally been very strong in D.C. and WUSTL is really making serious inroads there (see: new partnership with the Brookings Institute and expanded clinic opportunities). Dunno as much about UCLA, but I do know they have surprisingly good reach for a CA school, and I would imagine that would extend to D.C. as well.

Around 90% of Fordham students stay in NYC, according to a post by OperaSoprano (a mod who attends there) in a previous thread. Unless she was mistaken or things have changed, I'll take her word for it. I think Fordham is a great school and it should be ranked higher, but I don't think it necessarily has a lot of portability. We often forget how important "feeder markets" can be to boosting a school's employment numbers, and as a result, their ranking. I'm far more impressed by the portability of schools like Vanderbilt, Michigan, WUSTL, etc. (which are not near any major markets) than I am by Fordham, which gives its students immediate access to the legal network of NYC. Bottom line: Just because Fordham has employment numbers which outperform its rank does not mean it has portability that outperforms its rank. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's certainly what I've gathered from my research on Fordham, and one of the primary reasons I did not apply there).

Edit: Not only did OS cite that statistic in a previous thread, but she did so in the post right above me! Apparently I wasn't misquoting you.

[aPosseAdEsse]

If I have time, I'll do a comparison by # of firms at OCI, since that's much faster, and NALP recently updated numbers.

That would be great.

And I don't think Fordham as strong in D.C. as you seem to imply, and certainly not as strong as Vanderbilt, WUSTL, or UCLA. Vanderbilt has traditionally been very strong in D.C. and WUSTL is really making serious inroads there (see: new partnership with the Brookings Institute and expanded clinic opportunities). Dunno as much about UCLA, but I do know they have surprisingly good reach for a CA school, and I would imagine that would extend to D.C. as well.

Around 90% of Fordham students stay in NYC, according to a post by OperaSoprano (a mod who attends there) in a previous thread. Unless she was mistaken or things have changed, I'll take her word for it. I think Fordham is a great school and it should be ranked higher, but I don't think it necessarily has a lot of portability. We often forget how important "feeder markets" can be to boosting a school's employment numbers, and as a result, their ranking. I'm far more impressed by the portability of schools like Vanderbilt, Michigan, WUSTL, etc. (which are not near any major markets) than I am by Fordham, which gives its students immediate access to the legal network of NYC. Bottom line: Just because Fordham has employment numbers which outperform its rank does not mean it has portability that outperforms its rank. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's certainly what I've gathered from my research on Fordham, and one of the primary reasons I did not apply there).

Edit: Not only did OS cite that statistic in a previous thread, but she did so in the post right above me! Apparently I wasn't misquoting you.

You make a lot of sense. I never meant for this thread to exist in order to celebrate Fordham’s job placement. I actually find Seton Hall’s performance standout considering how little good attention the school receives on this site. I was also surprised by how relatively poorly Mason does for BigLaw.

[romothesavior]

If I have time, I'll do a comparison by # of firms at OCI, since that's much faster, and NALP recently updated numbers.

That would be great.

And I don't think Fordham as strong in D.C. as you seem to imply, and certainly not as strong as Vanderbilt, WUSTL, or UCLA. Vanderbilt has traditionally been very strong in D.C. and WUSTL is really making serious inroads there (see: new partnership with the Brookings Institute and expanded clinic opportunities). Dunno as much about UCLA, but I do know they have surprisingly good reach for a CA school, and I would imagine that would extend to D.C. as well.

Around 90% of Fordham students stay in NYC, according to a post by OperaSoprano (a mod who attends there) in a previous thread. Unless she was mistaken or things have changed, I'll take her word for it. I think Fordham is a great school and it should be ranked higher, but I don't think it necessarily has a lot of portability. We often forget how important "feeder markets" can be to boosting a school's employment numbers, and as a result, their ranking. I'm far more impressed by the portability of schools like Vanderbilt, Michigan, WUSTL, etc. (which are not near any major markets) than I am by Fordham, which gives its students immediate access to the legal network of NYC. Bottom line: Just because Fordham has employment numbers which outperform its rank does not mean it has portability that outperforms its rank. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's certainly what I've gathered from my research on Fordham, and one of the primary reasons I did not apply there).

Edit: Not only did OS cite that statistic in a previous thread, but she did so in the post right above me! Apparently I wasn't misquoting you.

You make a lot of sense. I never meant for this thread to exist in order to celebrate Fordham’s job placement. I actually find Seton Hall’s performance standout considering how little good attention the school receives on this site. I was also surprised by how relatively poorly Mason does for BigLaw.

I was actually responding to bernie's claim that Fordham is better than VULS or UCLA for NYC (and maybe D.C.). I think you've done a good job with this, I hope you'll do some more with schools that are more relevant to my school search.