Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

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racie23
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Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby racie23 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:41 pm

The way I see it Brooklyn (rank 61) offers best location for the next three years but will cost $59/yr and is third best educationally due to factors such as class size and student/faculty ratio;

Lewis & Clark, Portland, OR 61) is by far the cheapest at $45/yr, offers the second best location and second best education;

U of A, Tuscon, AZ (43) will most likely provide the best education and will cost $53/yr but offers the worst location.

Assuming I need to be flexible about where I work but I really don't like the idea of being stuck in AZ past law school and I want to do public interest but I may not be able to do public interest work if it would be unpaid due to the lousy job market but I know I don't want to follow the Big Law model, what would you choose? Or if you are not comfortable saying that how would you look at and prioritize the factors/schools above?

I am originally from California and would like to be able to practice in the Bay Area eventually.

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sophistry
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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby sophistry » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:01 pm

Did you get a scholarship to any of these? Are no CA schools in the running? I'm no expert, but I think it would be pretty difficult for you to return to the bay area unless you spent a few years working at a respectable firm.

I think Arizona would be the most mobile, but you'd have to research to find out how much. All in all, I think Arizona would probably be your best choice given the education and cost.

Avoid Brooklyn without a scholarship. It's really expensive and has a LOT of competition.

L&C is a great choice if you want to do environmental law, or if you are politically liberal. I expect it would be more difficult to transfer to the bay area with that degree, but the culture in Portland is more similar to the bay area. You might be happy in Portland.

Just to put things in perspective, my mother went to U of A, I was born in Oregon and I currently live in Brooklyn!

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby cLams » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:25 pm

I would rule out Brooklyn if you want to end up in the Bay Area. While L&C and UofA do not give you a great chance of working in the Bay Area right away, you'll likely have more luck that Brooklyn graduates. I'd personally choose UofA, but I'm biased because it will likely be where I end up.

There is a thread floating around here somewhere that ranks schools by California employment prospects. I'll keep an eye out for it and post it here if I find it. It was really helpful!

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby racie23 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:16 pm

cLams wrote:I would rule out Brooklyn if you want to end up in the Bay Area. While L&C and UofA do not give you a great chance of working in the Bay Area right away, you'll likely have more luck that Brooklyn graduates. I'd personally choose UofA, but I'm biased because it will likely be where I end up.

There is a thread floating around here somewhere that ranks schools by California employment prospects. I'll keep an eye out for it and post it here if I find it. It was really helpful!



Thanks! that would be really helpful if you can find it! You are planning on going to U of A? Where are you from? What other schools are you considering? What are your reasons for choosing U of A? If you have the time to answer those questions it would be enormously helpful.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby racie23 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:56 pm

sophistry wrote:Did you get a scholarship to any of these? Are no CA schools in the running? I'm no expert, but I think it would be pretty difficult for you to return to the bay area unless you spent a few years working at a respectable firm.

I think Arizona would be the most mobile, but you'd have to research to find out how much. All in all, I think Arizona would probably be your best choice given the education and cost.

Avoid Brooklyn without a scholarship. It's really expensive and has a LOT of competition.

L&C is a great choice if you want to do environmental law, or if you are politically liberal. I expect it would be more difficult to transfer to the bay area with that degree, but the culture in Portland is more similar to the bay area. You might be happy in Portland.

Just to put things in perspective, my mother went to U of A, I was born in Oregon and I currently live in Brooklyn!


Ha wow you have one foot in each of these locations!

I was offered a scholarship at all of these schools. The costs that I listed next to the name of each school in my original post is the cost of attendance plus all other costs with my scholarship amount subtracted. So that # should be exactly what I am paying i.e. taking out in loans for each year at the school. Brooklyn offered $7400 need based, U of A $8000 Merit, L7C $8000 Merit with 2.95 stipulation.

I was accepted at one CA school, Santa Clara. The reason I have kinda stopped considering Santa Clara is because it is ranked low at 85, the scholarship they offered is $8K with a top 25% stipulation, the employment rate and bar pass rate are low and although it is in the bay are a it is not in SF and still competes with Hastings. Stanford, BOLT, Davis and USF. I suppose the reason it would still be better than the other 3 schools is networking in the area but I still wonder if it would be just as difficult as coming from U of A or L&C but at least at those schools I would have more national marketability than from Santa Clara.

I have to admit I am scared shitless that the people in Tucson will be a bunch of preppy conservatives...I am more of an alternative type and am not sure their will be others like me in Tucson. Obviously there would be in Portland or Brooklyn but is that worth not going to the best school I've been offered?

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby RVP11 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:08 pm

If you want to practice in the Bay Area why aren't USF and SCU options?

If you don't want to live in Arizona after LS graduation, definitely don't go to school there.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby patrickd139 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:12 pm

I didn't read any of the posts outside the OP, so sorry if any of this has been said before.

If you want to go to the Bay Area, then you should apply to schools that (statistically) offer the best chance to practice law there. None of the schools on your list offer that. Barring exigent circumstances, I would highly encourage you to sit this one out and apply to schools in the Bay Area. I'll spare you the "YHS/Boalt or bust" opinion, but you need to be extremely careful going a T2 in NY, U of A or L&C expecting to land a job in SF/Bay Area which pays enough to not drown in debt. Like, "I already have a job lined up and all I have to do is graduate from somewhere" careful.

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racie23
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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby racie23 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:44 pm

RVP11 wrote:If you want to practice in the Bay Area why aren't USF and SCU options?

If you don't want to live in Arizona after LS graduation, definitely don't go to school there.


USF is not an option because they did not admit me. SCU is an option but the scholarship they offered me requires that I stay in the top 25% of the class, I intend to but if I do not than I am paying sticker at a school that is only ranked 85, has poor bar pass and employment rates and competes with Stanford, Hastings, Davis, Berkeley and USF. I find it hard to believe it truly gives me more marketability in SF than U of A or L&C both of which will be cheaper.

Feel free to refute but that is the thought process that keeps me from picking SCU outright.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby racie23 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:48 pm

patrickd139 wrote:I didn't read any of the posts outside the OP, so sorry if any of this has been said before.

If you want to go to the Bay Area, then you should apply to schools that (statistically) offer the best chance to practice law there. None of the schools on your list offer that. Barring exigent circumstances, I would highly encourage you to sit this one out and apply to schools in the Bay Area. I'll spare you the "YHS/Boalt or bust" opinion, but you need to be extremely careful going a T2 in NY, U of A or L&C expecting to land a job in SF/Bay Area which pays enough to not drown in debt. Like, "I already have a job lined up and all I have to do is graduate from somewhere" careful.



Believe me if Hastings, BOLT, Davis, Stanford i.e. any other top tier Bay Area LS were an option for me I would go but I applied and was shut out. The reason it does not make sense for me to sit it out is that my LSAT score is fine but my GPA is for lack of a better word crap and I am not going back to school to bring it up to go back to school. I need to choose a school, do my very best, attempt to transfer, and be happy with the decision I made even if transferring does not work out. So thanks for the warning but there isn't anything I can do at this point but try to choose the school that is going to give me the best education and make me most marketable for a price that will not rob me of any options.

So without going beyond the box of these four schools: U of A, SCU, Brooklyn and L&C, I welcome advice and opinions.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby RVP11 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:25 pm

racie23 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:If you want to practice in the Bay Area why aren't USF and SCU options?

If you don't want to live in Arizona after LS graduation, definitely don't go to school there.


USF is not an option because they did not admit me. SCU is an option but the scholarship they offered me requires that I stay in the top 25% of the class, I intend to but if I do not than I am paying sticker at a school that is only ranked 85, has poor bar pass and employment rates and competes with Stanford, Hastings, Davis, Berkeley and USF. I find it hard to believe it truly gives me more marketability in SF than U of A or L&C both of which will be cheaper.

Feel free to refute but that is the thought process that keeps me from picking SCU outright.


If SCU won't cost you much more than the three schools you're considering, it should easily be the top choice. So what if it's ranked 85 and the other schools are ranked higher - they're not in the Bay Area, and the ranking difference between 40 and 80 is virtually meaningless. You will be competing in a cutthroat market no matter what so the fact that SCU competes with so many schools shouldn't be material. And no, UofA and L&C are going to give you absolutely ZERO portability to the Bay - I don't care what you find hard to believe. You are infinitely better off at SCU if you want to practice anywhere near the Bay.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby racie23 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:36 pm

RVP11 wrote:
racie23 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:If you want to practice in the Bay Area why aren't USF and SCU options?

If you don't want to live in Arizona after LS graduation, definitely don't go to school there.


USF is not an option because they did not admit me. SCU is an option but the scholarship they offered me requires that I stay in the top 25% of the class, I intend to but if I do not than I am paying sticker at a school that is only ranked 85, has poor bar pass and employment rates and competes with Stanford, Hastings, Davis, Berkeley and USF. I find it hard to believe it truly gives me more marketability in SF than U of A or L&C both of which will be cheaper.

Feel free to refute but that is the thought process that keeps me from picking SCU outright.


If SCU won't cost you much more than the three schools you're considering, it should easily be the top choice. So what if it's ranked 85 and the other schools are ranked higher - they're not in the Bay Area, and the ranking difference between 40 and 80 is virtually meaningless. You will be competing in a cutthroat market no matter what so the fact that SCU competes with so many schools shouldn't be material. And no, UofA and L&C are going to give you absolutely ZERO portability to the Bay - I don't care what you find hard to believe. You are infinitely better off at SCU if you want to practice anywhere near the Bay.


Wow mind telling me how you can be so sure. What is your experience/story?

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby RVP11 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:53 pm

You came here for advice. I'm trying to give you some. My personal story isn't really relevant - I applied to a T14 and got in.

What you need to know is that non-T14s are regional schools. If you go to L&C, expect to find work in the PNW. If you go to UofA, expect to find work in Arizona. If you want to be in the Bay Area, you should take that offer from SCU or re-apply next cycle.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby steven3579 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:00 am

http://www.law.arizona.edu/career/new/2 ... loyers.cfm

Here's a link that lists which firms participated in OCI for 2009. As you can see, Arizona firms were by far the majority with only a few from California, Oregon, Washington, and Nevada.

Perhaps Brooklyn and L&C publish similar stats that can help you make a decision.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby racie23 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:07 am

steven3579 wrote:http://www.law.arizona.edu/career/new/2009OCIHiredEmployers.cfm

Here's a link that lists which firms participated in OCI for 2009. As you can see, Arizona firms were by far the majority with only a few from California, Oregon, Washington, and Nevada.

Perhaps Brooklyn and L&C publish similar stats that can help you make a decision.


Thank you for the stats but I am actually not looking to go the big law route. I am more interested in the public interest career fairs.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby patrickd139 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:53 am

racie23 wrote:
steven3579 wrote:http://www.law.arizona.edu/career/new/2009OCIHiredEmployers.cfm

Here's a link that lists which firms participated in OCI for 2009. As you can see, Arizona firms were by far the majority with only a few from California, Oregon, Washington, and Nevada.

Perhaps Brooklyn and L&C publish similar stats that can help you make a decision.


Thank you for the stats but I am actually not looking to go the big law route. I am more interested in the public interest career fairs.

It's no different. If anything, PI generally recruits even more locally than biglaw.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby sophistry » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:42 am

I'm in a similar place as you, racie. What I've begun to realize is that the rankings are not the most important factor once you get outside of the T14. One very successful Georgetown grad just said this to me: "Lawyers are unimaginative. They hire from the top schools (T14ish), or the schools they have first hand experience with. Go with the top school in the region you want to work, or be open to changing where you want to work."

All the research I've done backs this up.

This is my recommendation: If it's bay area or bust for you, go to SCU or reapply to Hastings next year. (Though you may be able to leverage your other acceptances to get SCU to drop the GPA requirement.)

If it's not bay area or bust, you should strongly consider UofA or L&C. Maybe try to visit Tuscon and Portland. Tuscon is not stiflingly conservative, as you suggested (especially not the UofA student body, which can get very granola). And Portland is very liberal (though not as warm or dry). You might end up enjoying those schools/locations. If you find yourself hating UofA, I think a transfer to SCU or another T2 California school would be easy.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby patrickd139 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:53 am

sophistry wrote:I'm in a similar place as you, racie. What I've begun to realize is that the rankings are not the most important factor once you get outside of the T14. One very successful Georgetown grad just said this to me: "Lawyers are unimaginative. They hire from the top schools (T14ish), or the schools they have first hand experience with. Go with the top school in the region you want to work, or be open to changing where you want to work."

All the research I've done backs this up.

This is my recommendation: If it's bay area or bust for you, go to SCU or reapply to Hastings next year. (Though you may be able to leverage your other acceptances to get SCU to drop the GPA requirement.)

If it's not bay area or bust, you should strongly consider UofA or L&C. Maybe try to visit Tuscon and Portland. Tuscon is not stiflingly conservative, as you suggested (especially not the UofA student body, which can get very granola). And Portland is very liberal (though not as warm or dry). You might end up enjoying those schools/locations. If you find yourself hating UofA, I think a transfer to SCU or another T2 California school would be easy.

+1 to all of this except stereotyping Portland as being "very liberal." OP, you'll find all types in Portland, just like you will everywhere else.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby sophistry » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:24 am

patrickd139 wrote:+1 to all of this except stereotyping Portland as being "very liberal." OP, you'll find all types in Portland, just like you will everywhere else.


That's true. I should have said "L&C is generally very politically liberal." I think Portland is, on average, more liberal than the vast majority of US cities. But coming from the bay area, you won't be turned off, even if you consider yourself conservative. I think L&C was ranked #3 "most liberal law school" by Princeton Review.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby NayBoer » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:37 pm

The schools are regional, so ignore the rankings. With your options, go to a school in the area.

If it helps convince you, I work at a boutique in SF and can anecdotally attest that hiring is pretty regional. The BAs of the office staff are far more diverse than the JDs of the attorneys. Maybe half the office staff has had bachelors from out of state. Only one hired attorney wasn't from a CA law school, even though we only hire lawyers with specialized tax training.

If you go to SCU, it might be easier to go to San Jose / south bay than SF.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby cLams » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:39 pm

racie23 wrote:
cLams wrote:I would rule out Brooklyn if you want to end up in the Bay Area. While L&C and UofA do not give you a great chance of working in the Bay Area right away, you'll likely have more luck that Brooklyn graduates. I'd personally choose UofA, but I'm biased because it will likely be where I end up.

There is a thread floating around here somewhere that ranks schools by California employment prospects. I'll keep an eye out for it and post it here if I find it. It was really helpful!



Thanks! that would be really helpful if you can find it! You are planning on going to U of A? Where are you from? What other schools are you considering? What are your reasons for choosing U of A? If you have the time to answer those questions it would be enormously helpful.


As of now, U of A is looking like my best option! It will cost me the least amount of money, and is one of the higher ranked schools I've been accepted to. The only way that I wouldn't attend, is if I get accepted at Davis w/ Financial Aid. I've applied mostly to west coast schools (UC Davis/Hastings, U of Oregon, U of Utah, U of NM, U of A, ASU) and a couple east coast schools. I'm from Phoenix, but would also like to end up in CA. I'm not interested in BigLaw, and would like to get involved in Human Rights/Indigenous Law work. If I can't break into the CA market right away, I'll probably spend a couple years in Phoenix and then see where I can go from there.

I've been drawn to U of A for a few of reasons.

1. I am really interested in their Indigenous Peoples Law and Policy Program. A couple of the other schools I applied to have great Indian Law Programs, but U of A has a greater focus on indigenous populations outside of the U.S. than the other schools.
2. I've had a great experience with their admissions/student services. I've found everyone to be really helpful and welcoming. I visited the library randomly on a Saturday, and the librarian was extremely helpful and walked around with me. 3. I want to get the hell out of Phoenix. Tucson (as I'm sure you've heard already) isn't everyone's favorite city, but it's grown on me. It's a really chill environment, with a more liberal atmosphere than Phoenix. While I can't see myself living there forever, I can definitely picture myself there for a couple years.
4. I've been really impressed by their new facilities and some of their programs.
5. At least in comparison with ASU, a lot more students are able to secure Judicial Clerkships.

Also, I saw in another post of yours that you mentioned being worried that U of A would be too preppy. I wouldn't worry too much about it. U of A does have a large greek presence, but other than that, it doesn't strike me as being particularly preppy. There are a lot of different scenes down there, and I'm sure you'd fit in. :D

This was a long ass post. Hope it helps!

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby racie23 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:21 pm

cLams wrote:
racie23 wrote:
cLams wrote:I would rule out Brooklyn if you want to end up in the Bay Area. While L&C and UofA do not give you a great chance of working in the Bay Area right away, you'll likely have more luck that Brooklyn graduates. I'd personally choose UofA, but I'm biased because it will likely be where I end up.

There is a thread floating around here somewhere that ranks schools by California employment prospects. I'll keep an eye out for it and post it here if I find it. It was really helpful!



Thanks! that would be really helpful if you can find it! You are planning on going to U of A? Where are you from? What other schools are you considering? What are your reasons for choosing U of A? If you have the time to answer those questions it would be enormously helpful.


As of now, U of A is looking like my best option! It will cost me the least amount of money, and is one of the higher ranked schools I've been accepted to. The only way that I wouldn't attend, is if I get accepted at Davis w/ Financial Aid. I've applied mostly to west coast schools (UC Davis/Hastings, U of Oregon, U of Utah, U of NM, U of A, ASU) and a couple east coast schools. I'm from Phoenix, but would also like to end up in CA. I'm not interested in BigLaw, and would like to get involved in Human Rights/Indigenous Law work. If I can't break into the CA market right away, I'll probably spend a couple years in Phoenix and then see where I can go from there.

I've been drawn to U of A for a few of reasons.

1. I am really interested in their Indigenous Peoples Law and Policy Program. A couple of the other schools I applied to have great Indian Law Programs, but U of A has a greater focus on indigenous populations outside of the U.S. than the other schools.
2. I've had a great experience with their admissions/student services. I've found everyone to be really helpful and welcoming. I visited the library randomly on a Saturday, and the librarian was extremely helpful and walked around with me. 3. I want to get the hell out of Phoenix. Tucson (as I'm sure you've heard already) isn't everyone's favorite city, but it's grown on me. It's a really chill environment, with a more liberal atmosphere than Phoenix. While I can't see myself living there forever, I can definitely picture myself there for a couple years.
4. I've been really impressed by their new facilities and some of their programs.
5. At least in comparison with ASU, a lot more students are able to secure Judicial Clerkships.

Also, I saw in another post of yours that you mentioned being worried that U of A would be too preppy. I wouldn't worry too much about it. U of A does have a large greek presence, but other than that, it doesn't strike me as being particularly preppy. There are a lot of different scenes down there, and I'm sure you'd fit in. :D

This was a long ass post. Hope it helps!


Thanks! That was helpful. You seem to have a lot of the same interests as me and you definitely highlighted some of the characteristics of U of A that have made me unwilling to pass it over for the other schools I have been accepted too.

I know everyone on here says one should go where they want to work but I firmly believe that it is important not to limit oneself. I cannot say for sure I will always want to be in San Francisco so I think it is more useful for me to go to the best school I get into over the low ranked regional school that places more in the silicon valley (somewhere I dislike) than in SF.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby NayBoer » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:54 pm

racie23 wrote:I know everyone on here says one should go where they want to work but I firmly believe that it is important not to limit oneself. I cannot say for sure I will always want to be in San Francisco so I think it is more useful for me to go to the best school I get into over the low ranked regional school that places more in the silicon valley (somewhere I dislike) than in SF.
What does "best" mean? The level of education does not really correlate to USNWR ranking, especially between schools ranked 40 and 80. The programs, clinics, and courses will change, but that's irrespective of USNWR ranking.

Most people take "best" to mean either prestige or employment prospects. But at this level, both prestige and prospects will be regional. So Arizona is your best choice for AZ, SCU is your best choice for the Bay Area, etc.

It's legitimate to say you don't want SCU because it goes to San Jose, but don't take Arizona unless you're okay with the possibility of living in AZ.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby patrickd139 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:21 pm

NayBoer wrote:
racie23 wrote:I know everyone on here says one should go where they want to work but I firmly believe that it is important not to limit oneself. I cannot say for sure I will always want to be in San Francisco so I think it is more useful for me to go to the best school I get into over the low ranked regional school that places more in the silicon valley (somewhere I dislike) than in SF.
What does "best" mean? The level of education does not really correlate to USNWR ranking, especially between schools ranked 40 and 80. The programs, clinics, and courses will change, but that's irrespective of USNWR ranking.

Most people take "best" to mean either prestige or employment prospects. But at this level, both prestige and prospects will be regional. So Arizona is your best choice for AZ, SCU is your best choice for the Bay Area, etc.

It's legitimate to say you don't want SCU because it goes to San Jose, but don't take Arizona unless you're okay with the possibility of living in AZ.

This. You say you don't want to limit yourself. By going to U of A, you effectively (or statistically, anyway) limit yourself to AZ. (Not that AZ is a bad choice or anything.)

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby Fark-o-vision » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:20 pm

I only spent a couple of years in Tucson, but I can say with some certainty that you won't have to worry about it being too conservative. Sure, the state is hyper conservative. The surrounding area is too. downtown, though, there really is a thriving liberal culture and a lot of different ways to fit in. I think the undergrad is more like what you're worried about, and the law school might be, too. The scene there is pretty wide open though.

As for whoever said Portland isn't "liberal" and that you'll find all types there, I think that much defines liberal. I had a friend who moved from Los Angeles to Salt Lake who believed in that idea and figured out pretty quickly that you only find "all types" in liberal towns. Conservative towns are conservative, period.

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Re: Choosing between 3 schools. Advice? L&C vs. U of A vs. Brkln

Postby RVP11 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:57 pm

Fark-o-vision wrote:Sure, the state is hyper conservative.


Huh? Compared to what? It's state of Mo Udall and Janet Napolitano. AZ also went for Bill Clinton. It's right-leaning, yes. But nowhere near "hyper-conservative."

Fark-o-vision wrote:As for whoever said Portland isn't "liberal" and that you'll find all types there, I think that much defines liberal. Conservative towns are conservative, period.


Ah yes. :roll:

"I see diversity in liberalism, but only homogeneity in conservatism" = "I can't relate to people who are not like me so I see them as all the same"




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