UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

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UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?)

UCLA $$
31
43%
Vandy $$
41
57%
 
Total votes: 72

turkishangora
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UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby turkishangora » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:13 pm

I went to both ASDs (below is my impression).

My greatest concern is jobs - what types and where. I'm from the Northeast. Although I would eventually want to get back out here, I would not mind at all if I'm stuck in California. I really don't want to end up in the South.

Vandy appears to have better employment/clerkship opporutnities. More % of Vandy students have jobs in the top 250 firms and possibly clerkships. But almost every top firm does OCI at UCLA (from Watchtell down), but they apparently haven't hired anyone from UCLA since forever (why are they still coming?). This is not true for Vandy.

Vandy Likes:

-Small class
-Awesome faculty
-Great international law internship opportunities because of one prof's connections with the State department and Pentagon.
-Seems to have a better time ITE. And their career services is really great, as is their faculty about getting jobs for their students. Also true about their Clerkship placements.

Dislikes:

-student body not diverse.
-Nashville kind of sucks (though cheaper cost of living).
-Median student stuck in the South (I dont' wnat to be in the South).

UCLA likes:

-Love the campus and neighborhood
-Really great faculty
[size=85]-Median student works in LA/California firms.


[u]Dislikes: [/u]

-Can't really say (i.e. they didn't elaborate) about clinics/internship/externships.
-Career services and faculty seems not as involved as Vandy's.
-Public school so facilities not as nice. but the weather is awesome.
-Westwood's cost of living will be higher thus school will end up a little more expensive than Vandy (though not much).
[/size]

Please elaborate on vote!

EDIT: font mess-ups

turkishangora
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby turkishangora » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:22 pm

anyone??

lawduder
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby lawduder » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:34 pm

Your dislikes for UCLA vs Vandy make it seem like you want to go to UCLA. However, Vandy has better firm placement... but I don't think that's what you want to hear.

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Grizz
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby Grizz » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:53 pm

lawduder wrote:Your dislikes for UCLA vs Vandy make it seem like you want to go to UCLA. However, Vandy has better firm placement... but I don't think that's what you want to hear.


+1

One thing that really turns me off of UCLA is it's location in a state with a miserable economy (Cali). What part of Vandy's non-diversity do you not like? It's whiteness? It's Southernness?

turkishangora
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby turkishangora » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 pm

lawduder wrote:Your dislikes for UCLA vs Vandy make it seem like you want to go to UCLA. However, Vandy has better firm placement... but I don't think that's what you want to hear.


no it's not. Do you know if there's a list of UCLA firm placements? Or how the 2009 OCI did? All I know is the 38% v. 48% difference at the NLJ 250. But those numbers may or maynot be meaningful since the 250 firms are so different.

turkishangora
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby turkishangora » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:28 pm

rad law wrote:
lawduder wrote:Your dislikes for UCLA vs Vandy make it seem like you want to go to UCLA. However, Vandy has better firm placement... but I don't think that's what you want to hear.


+1

One thing that really turns me off of UCLA is it's location in a state with a miserable economy (Cali). What part of Vandy's non-diversity do you not like? It's whiteness? It's Southernness?


lol maybe a bit of both. Are you starting at Vandy next year or are you already there?

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Grizz
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby Grizz » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:36 pm

turkishangora wrote:
rad law wrote:
lawduder wrote:Your dislikes for UCLA vs Vandy make it seem like you want to go to UCLA. However, Vandy has better firm placement... but I don't think that's what you want to hear.


+1

One thing that really turns me off of UCLA is it's location in a state with a miserable economy (Cali). What part of Vandy's non-diversity do you not like? It's whiteness? It's Southernness?


lol maybe a bit of both. Are you starting at Vandy next year or are you already there?


99% sure I'll be there next year. When I visited for ASD, it seemed pretty white, and Southerners are well represented, but there really are kids from all over from what I saw.

Rawlsian
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby Rawlsian » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:43 pm

You asked which has better employment/clerkships opportunities, but you already know the answer to that question--at least according to the newest numbers we have. For the best employment opportunities for the Northeast, well, that's difficult because of self-selection. I can say that NY has the most Vandy alumni behind TN and GA.

Rawlsian
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby Rawlsian » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:15 am

So you asked about employment in the North East. I don't have info on UCLA, but I looked up Vandy. These are the top seven destinations for Vandy grads over the past five years:

TN: 143 grads
NY: 82
GA: 67
DC: 63
TX: 50
IL: 46
CA: 42

As you can see, the majority of Vandy grads do not stay in the South. Although a larger percentage stay in the South than any other single region, you can see that Vandy really does have national reach.

turkishangora
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby turkishangora » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:56 pm

Rawlsian wrote:So you asked about employment in the North East. I don't have info on UCLA, but I looked up Vandy. These are the top seven destinations for Vandy grads over the past five years:

TN: 143 grads
NY: 82
GA: 67
DC: 63
TX: 50
IL: 46
CA: 42

As you can see, the majority of Vandy grads do not stay in the South. Although a larger percentage stay in the South than any other single region, you can see that Vandy really does have national reach.


thank you for looking this up. it's definitely true that vandy grads do go nationally. but i also think that for the median student at both schools, their options will be limited in today's economy, and the backup tends to be in local markets. Thus, my concern was that being median at UCLA may end up in a medium/small firm in Cali, but median at Vandy will be more limited tot eh Southern cities. I'm also trying to get more comprehensive data about UCLA grads. For the two schools though, I do think there's a greater percentage of students interested in public interest at UCLA (their Epstein scholars, for example). So there may be more diversity in that respect for UCLA as well. Then again, UCLA is 30% larger.

Another reason I'm partial to UCLA is that they have the Law and Philosophy concentration. I may or may not do this, so at this point it's not really relevant. but having that option there is nice. Their Phil department is amazing. (thought I'll share b/c of your tar).
Are you set on Vandy?

Rawlsian
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby Rawlsian » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:13 pm

turkishangora wrote:
thank you for looking this up. it's definitely true that vandy grads do go nationally. but i also think that for the median student at both schools, their options will be limited in today's economy, and the backup tends to be in local markets. Thus, my concern was that being median at UCLA may end up in a medium/small firm in Cali, but median at Vandy will be more limited tot eh Southern cities. I'm also trying to get more comprehensive data about UCLA grads. For the two schools though, I do think there's a greater percentage of students interested in public interest at UCLA (their Epstein scholars, for example). So there may be more diversity in that respect for UCLA as well. Then again, UCLA is 30% larger.

Another reason I'm partial to UCLA is that they have the Law and Philosophy concentration. I may or may not do this, so at this point it's not really relevant. but having that option there is nice. Their Phil department is amazing. (thought I'll share b/c of your tar).
Are you set on Vandy?


Yea, I'm more than likely headed to Vandy, and I've already begun my trolling. Really though, lately everything I've come across about Vanderbilt has been positive. It'd be nice if some people would way in on UCLA. I'm curious as well.

fortissimo
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby fortissimo » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:06 pm

Median student at UCLA does not work in "California firms." ITE they work for free in PI/gov jobs. (Not that Vandy median gets firm jobs ite either, but I'd rather have more market options than CA markets, which are faring poorly.) I'd hate living in either place (LA is probably the worst to live in America lawl) but go to Vandy.

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romothesavior
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:10 pm

What didn't you like about Nashville? I think it seems like an awesome city.

KG_CalGuy
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby KG_CalGuy » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:21 pm

UCLA likes:

-Love the campus and neighborhood
-Really great faculty
[size=85]-Median student works in LA/California firms.

Dislikes:

-Can't really say (i.e. they didn't elaborate) about clinics/internship/externships.
-Career services and faculty seems not as involved as Vandy's.
-Public school so facilities not as nice. but the weather is awesome.
-Westwood's cost of living will be higher thus school will end up a little more expensive than Vandy (though not much).


So I'm somewhat biased because I'm from Southern California (though not LA) and would never want to live in TN (I need the coastline). Regarding UCLA's clinics, they actually have a wide range of clinics and according to the people I spoke with, if you want one you can get in (just maybe not into your first choice). If you want to work in CA and have no prior connection to CA (ex: UG degree, family, etc.) UCLA will give you the edge. Southern California employers I've spoken with say they are sometimes resistant to hire out-of-state grads with no connection to CA because they think the grads might be using it as a "paid vacation" (as if working in a firm could be a vacation...)

However, I too am worried about UCLA's financial situation. The Gov. said he was going to restore some funding, but the UCs have never lowered their systemwide fees since 1979 (and yes, I have hard data to back that up).

Renzo
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby Renzo » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:26 pm

This thread has the potential to be the WW III of T15 troll-war flame-fests.

doomed123
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby doomed123 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:29 pm

Renzo wrote:This thread has the potential to be the WW III of T15 troll-war flame-fests.


I don't think there are enough UCLA trolls on TLS for that. Now, if it were UT vs. Vandy...

turkishangora
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby turkishangora » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:45 pm

fortissimo wrote:Median student at UCLA does not work in "California firms." ITE they work for free in PI/gov jobs. (Not that Vandy median gets firm jobs ite either, but I'd rather have more market options than CA markets, which are faring poorly.) I'd hate living in either place (LA is probably the worst to live in America lawl) but go to Vandy.


THanks for the input. Where did you find out more on UCLA employment stats? I've been looking everywhere, and ended up emailing the career services (haven'tn heard back yet).

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Grizz
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby Grizz » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:49 pm

Renzo wrote:This thread has the potential to be the WW III of T15 troll-war flame-fests.


There was a similar thread (UT v. Vandy v. Cornell) which was pretty crazy; observationalist showed up eventually and stomped Cornell.

turkishangora
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby turkishangora » Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:00 pm

romothesavior wrote:What didn't you like about Nashville? I think it seems like an awesome city.


It's a cute city, but I like LA's cosmopolitanism. I spent 2 years of highschool in Memphis. The south is nice, but it's different. I think people value different things, and has a different way/rhythm of life. This is just personal though. Also, honestly for a northerner the annual tornados/freaky storms were a bit much.


wow. only one for-UCLA argument. Seriously?

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thickfreakness
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby thickfreakness » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:21 pm

turkishangora wrote:
romothesavior wrote:What didn't you like about Nashville? I think it seems like an awesome city.


It's a cute city, but I like LA's cosmopolitanism. I spent 2 years of highschool in Memphis. The south is nice, but it's different. I think people value different things, and has a different way/rhythm of life. This is just personal though. Also, honestly for a northerner the annual tornados/freaky storms were a bit much.


wow. only one for-UCLA argument. Seriously?


Memphis is so not even close to being Nashville. Very different places. Nashville is probably one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the south.

fortissimo
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby fortissimo » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:58 pm

turkishangora wrote:
fortissimo wrote:Median student at UCLA does not work in "California firms." ITE they work for free in PI/gov jobs. (Not that Vandy median gets firm jobs ite either, but I'd rather have more market options than CA markets, which are faring poorly.) I'd hate living in either place (LA is probably the worst to live in America lawl) but go to Vandy.


THanks for the input. Where did you find out more on UCLA employment stats? I've been looking everywhere, and ended up emailing the career services (haven'tn heard back yet).


http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

Keep in mind that this is for the Class of 2009, which had OCI in 2007, so biglaw placement is probably much worse now. But before it got really bad, UCLA placed 35.9% into biglaw.

Not sure if you were talking about small firms in LA when you talk about "working in CA firms," but I wouldn't be surprised if 2Ls median at UCLA this year took unpaid PI gigs. I also wouldn't rely on finding small firm work in primary markets ite either.

KG_CalGuy
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby KG_CalGuy » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:53 pm

http://www.law.ucla.edu/home/index.asp?page=1307

Again, not the most recent data from the crappy economy, but it's the only data UCLA provides

turkishangora
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby turkishangora » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:52 pm

thickfreakness wrote:
turkishangora wrote:
romothesavior wrote:What didn't you like about Nashville? I think it seems like an awesome city.


It's a cute city, but I like LA's cosmopolitanism. I spent 2 years of highschool in Memphis. The south is nice, but it's different. I think people value different things, and has a different way/rhythm of life. This is just personal though. Also, honestly for a northerner the annual tornados/freaky storms were a bit much.


wow. only one for-UCLA argument. Seriously?


Memphis is so not even close to being Nashville. Very different places. Nashville is probably one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the south.


Yes but the south is not exactly cosmopolitan...

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observationalist
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby observationalist » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:31 pm

turkishangora wrote:
lawduder wrote:Your dislikes for UCLA vs Vandy make it seem like you want to go to UCLA. However, Vandy has better firm placement... but I don't think that's what you want to hear.


no it's not. Do you know if there's a list of UCLA firm placements? Or how the 2009 OCI did? All I know is the 38% v. 48% difference at the NLJ 250. But those numbers may or maynot be meaningful since the 250 firms are so different.


Good question. Decisions like these would certainly benefit if UCLA was publishing comprehensive employment lists in the same manner Vanderbilt has done in the past. Anyone who has acceptances should be contacting the schools now to ask them for full lists of where the Class of 2009 is working. Also be sure to ask about data on Class of 2010 and Class of 2011 summer employment. Vanderbilt publishes a Recruitment Handbook each summer that reveals where every member of the 1L and 2L class is working for the summer... it makes it a lot easier for me to tout the strength of the program when the school is publishing actual employment statistics.

Also, I've mentioned before that I would rather be considered a shameless transparency troll than a shameless Vandy troll. Vandy may be leading the pack along with Duke and Chicago right now, but there's still plenty of room for improvement and another 197 ABA-approved law schools to get on board. Over the last year or so we've been trying to come up with a way to help law schools function in a more transparent manner, and to that end engaging in discussions on TLS has helped shape our work tremendously. I'm happy to report that we have just posted a working draft of our paper on SSRN, currently titled "A Way Forward: Improving Transparency in Employment Reporting at American Law Schools." Hopefully we can get a journal to pick it up and publish it, but in the meantime we'd appreciate any questions or criticisms TLS posters (either prospectives or current students) may have. Here's the link: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1528862

G'luck to the OP in hunting down that placement data and making an informed decision.

turkishangora
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Re: UCLA $$ v. Vandy $$ (which has better employment/clerkships?

Postby turkishangora » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:12 am

observationalist wrote:
turkishangora wrote:
lawduder wrote:Your dislikes for UCLA vs Vandy make it seem like you want to go to UCLA. However, Vandy has better firm placement... but I don't think that's what you want to hear.


no it's not. Do you know if there's a list of UCLA firm placements? Or how the 2009 OCI did? All I know is the 38% v. 48% difference at the NLJ 250. But those numbers may or maynot be meaningful since the 250 firms are so different.


Good question. Decisions like these would certainly benefit if UCLA was publishing comprehensive employment lists in the same manner Vanderbilt has done in the past. Anyone who has acceptances should be contacting the schools now to ask them for full lists of where the Class of 2009 is working. Also be sure to ask about data on Class of 2010 and Class of 2011 summer employment. Vanderbilt publishes a Recruitment Handbook each summer that reveals where every member of the 1L and 2L class is working for the summer... it makes it a lot easier for me to tout the strength of the program when the school is publishing actual employment statistics.

Also, I've mentioned before that I would rather be considered a shameless transparency troll than a shameless Vandy troll. Vandy may be leading the pack along with Duke and Chicago right now, but there's still plenty of room for improvement and another 197 ABA-approved law schools to get on board. Over the last year or so we've been trying to come up with a way to help law schools function in a more transparent manner, and to that end engaging in discussions on TLS has helped shape our work tremendously. I'm happy to report that we have just posted a working draft of our paper on SSRN, currently titled "A Way Forward: Improving Transparency in Employment Reporting at American Law Schools." Hopefully we can get a journal to pick it up and publish it, but in the meantime we'd appreciate any questions or criticisms TLS posters (either prospectives or current students) may have. Here's the link: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1528862

G'luck to the OP in hunting down that placement data and making an informed decision.


thanks :)




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