Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where would you go: UIUC, Irvine, or Hastings?

Illinois (UIUC, $$)
21
21%
UC Irvine ($$)
62
62%
Hastings (trying to get $$...)
17
17%
 
Total votes: 100

ek319
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Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby ek319 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:53 pm

I'm a California girl born and bred (and a Bay Area native at that) who would like to come back here for work upon graduation. (I'm not necessarily adverse to going out of state for work/school, but for personal reasons--not weather-related in the least, I assure you--I kind of need to come back to work in SF.)

I am trying to decide--or at least narrow down--between UIUC (with a $25k annual scholarship), UC Irvine (with their half-tuition scholarship), and Hastings (no $$$ yet).

I visited Irvine last week and loved the people there, and my parents went to UIUC for grad school so I know the environment there. This, of course, weighs against the ultra-competitive reputation Hastings tends to have. Can anyone weigh in on this bad rap? Do they offer enough (be it alumni network or what have you) to make up for its less-than-prime location and lack of campus/community? What about $$$? How best to leverage my other $$$ offers?

Irvine, of course, is as yet "unproven" in the real world job market. While I was happy to see their faculty are all tremendously supportive and helpful, I couldn't help but notice that the majority of their students were being placed in the Orange County area. I'm not one to shy away from a challenge or a new venture, but the debt I'll be saddled with three years from now (in spite of the scholarship) better be worth it!

UIUC, then, also comes with that regional disadvantage. I'm sure a large majority of UIUC students are Midwest-based, but what about those of us who aren't? Is Illinois enough of a "national" institution to help place me in a CA/Bay Area job?

Help!

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voice of reason
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Re: Illinois (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby voice of reason » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:00 am

I'm also a Bay Area native. I'd immediately rule out UIUC -- no reason to saddle yourself with the regional disadvantage.

The Hastings vs. Irvine decision is tougher, assuming Hastings matches UCI's money. On the one hand, Irvine is far more appealing as a place to go to school -- a small, cohesive, optimistic and blossoming place vs. a large institution that has declined in stature, has a terrible reputation for competitiveness, and is in a crummy neighborhood to boot. On the other hand, Hastings grads get bay area jobs, and that's the goal.

Personally, I'd go to Irvine and take advantage of the superior access to professors and superior opportunities to be involved in shaping the programs and the law review. I'd definitely go to Irvine if Hastings doesn't match the money. But even if they do, Irvine is lots more appealing as a place to be and I think Irvine faculty and admin are going to go to the mat to help every grad get a job. You could check whether any of the OCI employers at Irvine are from up north. If they are, that could make the decision easier.

Good luck.

ViP
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby ViP » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:10 pm

UCI.

Illinois is a good school, but if you're definitely coming back to Cali, don't choose Illinois.

Personally, I chose UCI over Hastings- no brainer. I realized that the educational experience would be vastly different at Hastings, and I much prefer the small, friendly, supportive atmosphere of UCI.

Plus, UCI already seems to be of much higher quality. The students, the faculty, the dean, the hype, the press, the size, the philosophy...

I'm also of the belief that there is a reason why Hastings has steadily declined (in rankings) over the past 20 years... I think the grads will still kick ass in the Bay Area and make tons of money (in a decent economy), but the experience and education at UCI outright knock-out those at Hastings, in my opinion.
Last edited by ViP on Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby DerrickRose » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:15 pm

Irvine Irvine Irvine.

That school is in it to win it. Their Career Services Office isn't about to let someone from class #2 not be able to find a job in California.

Says the resident Illinois troll, by the way.

Danteshek
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby Danteshek » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:18 pm

Hastings, because staying home is always better than going away (with a few exceptions - like if you get into Yale or the equivalent).

keg411
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby keg411 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:01 pm

UCI... with the caveat unless you are an Illinois Law School legacy (not just random grad school) and it means something to you to continue that (and your parents can help with the Cali job connections). I wouldn't pick Hastings due to the huge class size.

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Borhas
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby Borhas » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:24 pm

keg411 wrote: I wouldn't pick Hastings due to the huge class size.

they are bringing it down from 475 to 380-400 this year

====

as for the thread... meh I dunno... Hastings won't match Irvine's money though that's for sure, they are stingy. (the financial aid rep at ASD said more money will be sent out on May 1st and that it may be a good idea to write a letter to the admissions office sometime after then, and give them a nudge in your direction)

as for UCI... eh I think it would be the obvious choice for everyone that's not dead set on working in SF. I don't really know how UCI will place there, no one does. If you don't want anywhere other than SF I have to think you should go with Hastings. If you are ok with ending up in So Cal then you should probably go with Irvine...

at least that's my reading of the "conventional wisdom"

wtf do I know...
====

as for Hastings the uber-competitive rep appears to come from their overly harsh curves in previous years (which have since been loosened). There's no UG campus so the whole UG bubble mentality doesn't exist, but from what I have gathered talking to current students it doesn't appear to be more competitive than most other places, though I'd guess UCI's environment would be much different.

eth3n
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby eth3n » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:33 am

Borhas wrote:as for UCI... eh I think it would be the obvious choice for everyone that's not dead set on working in SF.

I have to agree, I don't think this is a really clear cut issue.

On one hand, you have the UCI people who are highly self-interested in placing everyone from their early classes in good positions, or at least a legitimate position. However this seems to be due to professional/personal networking, and therefore I don't see this suggesting they will find you a spot in SF or die trying, but rather that they will find you a job.

On the other, Hastings has a huge alumni presence in SF, and many employers in SF (be it state or non-165k private) will hire out of their alma mater, or through the Hastings alumni network, etc. For SF, I think Hastings still has good placement chances (assuming you aren't bottom half and force yourself to do some serious networking) if we are talking about a SF job and not SF 165k. However if you are receiving substantially more money from Irvine, you really have to do your own cost-benefit analysis. But I don't think its clear that UCI will place better in SF than Hastings at all.

ek319 wrote:to make up for its less-than-prime location and lack of campus/community?

I don't taken the two above reasons into consideration because I think you are clearly wrong about the former and I don't really understand the latter.
I think one of the greatest benefits of Hastings is that you are close enough to do fall/spring internships in the city, I would kill to be able to walk/bike down the street to a SF internship rather then deal with the commuting to and/or impossibility of an internship from another school.

Danteshek
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby Danteshek » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:52 am

This is probably a minor consideration, but many federal government employers will not consider you if your school isn't ABA accredited. For instance the application for the S.E.C. Summer Honors program specifically asks if your school is accredited and they say that they don't take students from unaccredited schools. I'm pretty sure I would not have been selected had I gone to UCI.

ek319
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby ek319 » Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:29 am

eth3n wrote:I don't taken the two above reasons into consideration because I think you are clearly wrong about the former and I don't really understand the latter.
I think one of the greatest benefits of Hastings is that you are close enough to do fall/spring internships in the city, I would kill to be able to walk/bike down the street to a SF internship rather then deal with the commuting to and/or impossibility of an internship from another school.


I work and walk in the city every day, so I think it's rather hasty of you to dismiss my concerns as "clearly wrong". From the wording of your sentence, I gather that you are not a Hastings student and perhaps not from/in the area at all. I do concede to all your points about the benefits of Hastings' central location, and it is, in fact, why it is still in heavy consideration at this point (these three schools being a pared down list of preferences).

On the other hand, there is something to be said about being able to attend a school where it doesn't just feel like another day at the office, with everyone hastily heading home the moment they get out of class; about being able to attend a school that fosters a certain degree of unity, traditional campus or not. There is also something to be said about be able to roam around the neighborhood without worry of large groups of crackheads hanging around on every street corner. Of course this is not true of every street corner, but I have seen it with my own eyes, and frequently at that.

I think it's important that we distinguish between location in terms of Hastings' proximity to courts, etc. and the Tenderloin, that not-always-so-lovable TL. I have lived in numerous cities (as well as in an apartment that pretty much resembled a crack den) and while I am not so sheltered as to shy away from a little bit of grit, the TL doesn't have a somewhat fearsome reputation for no reason. Besides, it's nice to be able to go down to the corner market without being followed and/or whistled at.

I appreciate your response and, in fact, largely agree with your views, but to call me "clearly wrong" comes across as a rather unmerited condescension on your part.

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hoopsguy6
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby hoopsguy6 » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:02 am

+1 for Irvine.

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drdolittle
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby drdolittle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:12 am

Danteshek wrote:Hastings, because staying home is always better than going away (with a few exceptions - like if you get into Yale or the equivalent).


+1. This might seem like an exaggerated statement, but it's true, if you want to come back home. Irvine will most likely end up as a good regional school. UIUC is already that. So if your goal is to settle in the SF bay area, not in SoCal or the Midwest, Hastings is probably the safest choice.

ENGINEERD
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby ENGINEERD » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:12 am

I am currently making a similar decision but replace illinois with ND. This decision is killing me, I am also from CA but plan to work in OC/LA. I have posted multiple threads and without fail the majority always seem to think UCI is the best choice.

I am sure it is hard for you to rationalize turning down a school in the T25 w/$$ for no money at a school ranked 42 or for an unaccredited school. I think the major selling point at UCI is that the reputation of the school depends on the jobs the first few classes. Meaning the staff and faculty will do anything within their power to land you a job. In addition you will have one of the best, if not the best, student faculty ratio with top 10 rated faculty.

There is no doubt the education you will receive at UCI will be far superior to that of the other options. In addition you have the best chance of landing a job in california from UCI. I personally don't think there is clear winner here but I think the credited response is UCI. I would not go to hastings at sticker and I think you will have a relatively difficult job finding a job in SF from Illinois. Coming from Illinois you will probably have to broaden your job search to both Southern and Northern California and there is no guarantee you will find a job in either area. UCI will offer you the closest thing to a guaranteed job in CA.

Take that with a grain of salt because i still cant make up my mind...
.

eth3n
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby eth3n » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:16 am

ek319 wrote:I appreciate your response and, in fact, largely agree with your views, but to call me "clearly wrong" comes across as a rather unmerited condescension on your part.

Sorry, no condescension intended! Consider it poor word choice coupled with my own spite toward Hastings students ability to work in SF during the school-year (which is pretty clear in my post :cry:).

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drdolittle
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby drdolittle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:44 am

ENGINEERD wrote:I think the major selling point at UCI is that the reputation of the school depends on the jobs the first few classes. Meaning the staff and faculty will do anything within their power to land you a job.


I'm just a 0L so what do I know, but my impression after going to a few ASDs (where career office reps were always present) and otherwise getting in touch with current law students is that career office staff and faculty have a limited role in finding students real jobs. If a firm, company or agency is not hiring, there's little these folks can do to create positions.

Irvine will likely do well locally, but at this time there's no reason to think it's sphere of influence will firmly extend into regions long served by other well regarded schools, whether in CA or elsewhere. It might compete all over, but never to the extent it will do so in the OC.

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im_blue
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby im_blue » Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:03 am

ENGINEERD wrote:I think the major selling point at UCI is that the reputation of the school depends on the jobs the first few classes. Meaning the staff and faculty will do anything within their power to land you a job.

Meh, how far can faculty effort/connections really go to land you a job? Judging by the HYSCCN grads who strike out at OCI ITE, not so much.

ENGINEERD
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby ENGINEERD » Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:04 am

im_blue wrote:
ENGINEERD wrote:I think the major selling point at UCI is that the reputation of the school depends on the jobs the first few classes. Meaning the staff and faculty will do anything within their power to land you a job.

Meh, how far can faculty effort/connections really go to land you a job? Judging by the HYSCCN grads who strike out at OCI ITE, not so much.


60/60 students landed summer jobs

keg411
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby keg411 » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:31 am

im_blue wrote:
ENGINEERD wrote:I think the major selling point at UCI is that the reputation of the school depends on the jobs the first few classes. Meaning the staff and faculty will do anything within their power to land you a job.

Meh, how far can faculty effort/connections really go to land you a job? Judging by the HYSCCN grads who strike out at OCI ITE, not so much.


Irvine is kind of unique though, in not only that it's new, but that there are very high powered names behind it that have a lot at stake in the success. I do think that Irvine will eventually end up a regional SoCal school, but like I've said, I think the first few classes aren't going to see that as much as going forward. If the first few classes don't get placed, Irvine is toast, and I'm sure they are quite aware of that.

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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby ViP » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:24 am

im_blue wrote:
ENGINEERD wrote:I think the major selling point at UCI is that the reputation of the school depends on the jobs the first few classes. Meaning the staff and faculty will do anything within their power to land you a job.

Meh, how far can faculty effort/connections really go to land you a job? Judging by the HYSCCN grads who strike out at OCI ITE, not so much.


Dean Chemerinsky personally visited 70 employers (big firms, small firms, public interest offices, DA offices, etc.) and made a personal request that they agree to participate in UCI's 2010 OCI. They agreed, not because they felt obliged in any way, but because they trust Chemerinsky's words and they have great expectations from UCI.

At ASD, the employers couldn't stop saying "I know you all know who Chemerinsky is... But you really don't know."

Like everyone has said, UCI absolutely must do whatever it takes to guarantee success for its first few classes. But in the administration's words, it's the unmatched lawyering and interview skills that will allow the students to speak for themselves during interviews.

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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby ViP » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:27 am

ek319 wrote:
eth3n wrote:I don't taken the two above reasons into consideration because I think you are clearly wrong about the former and I don't really understand the latter.
I think one of the greatest benefits of Hastings is that you are close enough to do fall/spring internships in the city, I would kill to be able to walk/bike down the street to a SF internship rather then deal with the commuting to and/or impossibility of an internship from another school.


I work and walk in the city every day, so I think it's rather hasty of you to dismiss my concerns as "clearly wrong". From the wording of your sentence, I gather that you are not a Hastings student and perhaps not from/in the area at all. I do concede to all your points about the benefits of Hastings' central location, and it is, in fact, why it is still in heavy consideration at this point (these three schools being a pared down list of preferences).

On the other hand, there is something to be said about being able to attend a school where it doesn't just feel like another day at the office, with everyone hastily heading home the moment they get out of class; about being able to attend a school that fosters a certain degree of unity, traditional campus or not. There is also something to be said about be able to roam around the neighborhood without worry of large groups of crackheads hanging around on every street corner. Of course this is not true of every street corner, but I have seen it with my own eyes, and frequently at that.

I think it's important that we distinguish between location in terms of Hastings' proximity to courts, etc. and the Tenderloin, that not-always-so-lovable TL. I have lived in numerous cities (as well as in an apartment that pretty much resembled a crack den) and while I am not so sheltered as to shy away from a little bit of grit, the TL doesn't have a somewhat fearsome reputation for no reason. Besides, it's nice to be able to go down to the corner market without being followed and/or whistled at.

I appreciate your response and, in fact, largely agree with your views, but to call me "clearly wrong" comes across as a rather unmerited condescension on your part.


This is a huge reason I'm choosing UCI. I know that if I attend virtually any other law school, I'll be just another number and just another stressed out law student in the school's history. At UCI, there's so much going on and so much to do in terms of developing and representing the program that it will hardly feel like that typical "law school experience."

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Borhas
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby Borhas » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:37 pm

OP,

UCI+Hastings/2 - 200 law students = UC Davis

did you apply to davis?

Danteshek
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby Danteshek » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:32 pm

ENGINEERD wrote:
im_blue wrote:
ENGINEERD wrote:I think the major selling point at UCI is that the reputation of the school depends on the jobs the first few classes. Meaning the staff and faculty will do anything within their power to land you a job.

Meh, how far can faculty effort/connections really go to land you a job? Judging by the HYSCCN grads who strike out at OCI ITE, not so much.


60/60 students landed summer jobs


Unpaid internships with non profits made up the bulk of those "jobs." Don't get me wrong - UCI did fine, but it is patently untrue that every student got what could be fairly characterized as a job.

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drdolittle
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby drdolittle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:31 pm

Bottom line is that for now, Irvine's an experiment. This alone has attracted high profile faculty and students with greats numbers. It's probably also discouraged others from considering the school. Of course it's had great initial placement because the school was started with job commitments from employers mainly in the OC (according to their website last year). And the school's success critically depends on employment so now, more than ever, there's a huge incentive for them to have stellar numbers, by whatever means necessary. The dean's visits to employers will not single-handedly create jobs for students. It'll raise the school's visibility, yes, but many deans are visiting employers on a regular basis. And I don't know how long a serious academic like Chemerinsky will (or should) keep up the promotion, it's probably not the best use of his time after all. Not to mean Irvine won't turn out to be a great school in the long run, but these first few years of excitement will likely settle into a more realistic scenario where Irvine will enjoy the most success in SoCal.

Danteshek
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby Danteshek » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:39 pm

I wonder what really is driving Chemerinski. The whole thing just seems extremely grandiose. Is he so difficult to work with that he had to set up his own fiefdom (recall how he left USC, Duke, and how he was fired from UCI before getting rehired.). Or is it pure, unvarnished egoism?

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drdolittle
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Re: Illinoic (UIUC, $$) vs. UC Irvine ($$) vs. Hastings

Postby drdolittle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:03 pm

Danteshek wrote:I wonder what really is driving Chemerinski. The whole thing just seems extremely grandiose. Is he so difficult to work with that he had to set up his own fiefdom (recall how he left USC, Duke, and how he was fired from UCI before getting rehired.). Or is it pure, unvarnished egoism?


I imagine what drives Chemerinsky is the same thing driving most academics, as you suggest, ego and a strong desire to make a lasting impact. From what I've experienced in academia, many tenured professors get so accustomed to academic freedom that basic responsibilities like faculty meetings, student advising, teaching, etc. become unbearable chores. A good way to get out of these is to create new challenges and responsibilities. Academics tend to get bored with mundane activities and for Chemerinsky, starting a law school is probably just another way to stay excited about his job.




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