Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which?

Iowa
14
25%
Illinois
41
75%
 
Total votes: 55

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Jerome
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby Jerome » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:25 pm

itsmytime10 wrote: Iowa has a better placement across the board because Illinois grads stay in Chicago. Take those into consideration....Which school will do better in a bad economy....If you care about rankings then try and figure out what school thinks their ranking is likely to get better/stay the same..etc.......but like i said before...try and talk to students who are willing to give you an honest opinion about the school...Personally i love both schools..but I love Illinois more.


I wouldn't for one second take a law school's insistence that they really, truly, absolutely think that their ranking will improve at face value. Not a single school would admit, "yeah, we're ranked 26 now, but next year, we'll probably drop to 33." Rather, look at trends in rankings, if a state school, look at the economic condition of the state (if CU Boulder loses as much state money as people fear, I can't imagine it would maintain its current ranking, for example), and job placement stats.

I don't doubt that many Illinois grads choose to stay in Chicago. I doubt that Iowa places better across the board because Illinois grads stay in Chicago/Illinois - such a statement reeks of fallacy.

Vincent Vega wrote: True, but perception is also a large factor in situations such as this. A lot of your data could also be accounted for by self-selection - it could simply be that Illinois students prefer the midwest much more than Iowa students (perhaps partially because QOL in Champaign is generally considered better than that of Iowa City).


The data surely are influenced by self-selection, we just have no idea how much of an effect self-selection has. Iowa students likely would not apply to, and then attend, Iowa if they didn't like - or couldn't see themselves living in - the mid-west. Same goes for Illinois. I do not for a second deny that Illinois is a great school, or that it places very well in the mid-west, particularly Illinois. I question whether or not its job placement stats are better, in terms of portability, than Iowa's. My point is really that an Iowa degree does not confine you to Iowa or prevent you from getting a job in Chicago, regardless of the fact that it is rated below Illinois.

As for the QOL argument, I have no basis on which to judge that claim. I liked Iowa City a lot, and didn't love Champaign. I don't know what the consensus is, but I very much doubt that most people find Iowa City so detestable as to turn them off the mid-west altogether. Now, spend a week in Tuba City, AZ, and you will NEVER return to Arizona. Ever. That is a guarantee.

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Vincent Vega
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby Vincent Vega » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:22 pm

Jerome wrote:Now, spend a week in Tuba City, AZ, and you will NEVER return to Arizona. Ever. That is a guarantee.


I'll take your word for it.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:45 pm

webbylu87 wrote:I'm looking at public interest/service work, but this could change and I am certainly open to discovering a passion for biglaw/midlaw/anything else. I want to plan my debt intelligently and am considering the impact of IBR, loan forgiveness, and each school's LRAP should I go into public interest/service. With that said though, the best job prospects overall is probably the best way for me to make a decision as I haven't ruled out a more traditional legal career. I really am looking for access to some bigger legal markets and would love to end up in St. Louis but Chicago would be a good option as well. Money and job prospects (in location, strength, and variety) seem to be the biggest considerdations.

Financially it comes down to:
Iowa (in-state = $41/k year) vs Illinois (OOS with scholarship = $50k/year)

Thoughts?

(Tried this thread before, but it didn't really generate the sort of the discussion I had hoped for so I waited until it died out before I starting this thread. Sorry for the repeat.)


Dude, you're talking about an extra $9K /year in tuition to attend UIUC and it is so much better of a school overall. I really don't understand why you would pick Iowa over it just to save that when you are planning on incurring substantial debt to attend law school anyway. It might be another story if you were talking about a full ride at Iowa versus sticker at Illinois, but with those numbers it just doesn't make sense to go to Iowa.

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Jerome
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby Jerome » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:43 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:I'm looking at public interest/service work, but this could change and I am certainly open to discovering a passion for biglaw/midlaw/anything else. I want to plan my debt intelligently and am considering the impact of IBR, loan forgiveness, and each school's LRAP should I go into public interest/service. With that said though, the best job prospects overall is probably the best way for me to make a decision as I haven't ruled out a more traditional legal career. I really am looking for access to some bigger legal markets and would love to end up in St. Louis but Chicago would be a good option as well. Money and job prospects (in location, strength, and variety) seem to be the biggest considerdations.

Financially it comes down to:
Iowa (in-state = $41/k year) vs Illinois (OOS with scholarship = $50k/year)

Thoughts?

(Tried this thread before, but it didn't really generate the sort of the discussion I had hoped for so I waited until it died out before I starting this thread. Sorry for the repeat.)


Dude, you're talking about an extra $9K /year in tuition to attend UIUC and it is so much better of a school overall. I really don't understand why you would pick Iowa over it just to save that when you are planning on incurring substantial debt to attend law school anyway. It might be another story if you were talking about a full ride at Iowa versus sticker at Illinois, but with those numbers it just doesn't make sense to go to Iowa.


And what is the basis of this claim? A few spots in the USNWR rankings? Or do you have another reason to assert that Illinois is "so much better" than Iowa?

itsmytime10
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby itsmytime10 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:46 pm

Jerome wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:I'm looking at public interest/service work, but this could change and I am certainly open to discovering a passion for biglaw/midlaw/anything else. I want to plan my debt intelligently and am considering the impact of IBR, loan forgiveness, and each school's LRAP should I go into public interest/service. With that said though, the best job prospects overall is probably the best way for me to make a decision as I haven't ruled out a more traditional legal career. I really am looking for access to some bigger legal markets and would love to end up in St. Louis but Chicago would be a good option as well. Money and job prospects (in location, strength, and variety) seem to be the biggest considerdations.

Financially it comes down to:
Iowa (in-state = $41/k year) vs Illinois (OOS with scholarship = $50k/year)

Thoughts?

(Tried this thread before, but it didn't really generate the sort of the discussion I had hoped for so I waited until it died out before I starting this thread. Sorry for the repeat.)


Dude, you're talking about an extra $9K /year in tuition to attend UIUC and it is so much better of a school overall. I really don't understand why you would pick Iowa over it just to save that when you are planning on incurring substantial debt to attend law school anyway. It might be another story if you were talking about a full ride at Iowa versus sticker at Illinois, but with those numbers it just doesn't make sense to go to Iowa.


And what is the basis of this claim? A few spots in the USNWR rankings? Or do you have another reason to assert that Illinois is "so much better" than Iowa?


I see this thread is still alive. Honestly if you do your research you will find out that Illinois is much better. I would never have given up a full ride at Iowa to go to Illinois if i hadn't come to that conclusion. But like i said, Iowa is still a very very good school

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Jerome
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby Jerome » Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:31 am

itsmytime10 wrote:I see this thread is still alive. Honestly if you do your research you will find out that Illinois is much better. I would never have given up a full ride at Iowa to go to Illinois if i hadn't come to that conclusion. But like i said, Iowa is still a very very good school


I have done my research, and I didn't come to that conclusion. To my mind they are comparable, with perhaps a slight edge to UIUC. So I'm curious - what is the basis of your claim that Illinois is "much better" than Iowa?

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Vincent Vega
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby Vincent Vega » Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:34 am

The fact that almost everyone on TLS believes Illinois to be the better school says a lot. Honestly, who cares which school is better - what is really important is that people think that a school is better than another - this is how you will get hired over someone from another school.

itsmytime10
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby itsmytime10 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:26 am

Jerome is going to Iowa so i see why he will say this. Either way you are going to a good school....

Slimpee
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby Slimpee » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:44 am

Vincent Vega wrote:The fact that almost everyone on TLS believes Illinois to be the better school says a lot. Honestly, who cares which school is better - what is really important is that people think that a school is better than another - this is how you will get hired over someone from another school.


I can't believe you are serious! TLS is a notorious circle-jerk of reasoning. The fact is that they're peer schools, the education will be the same, and career prospects will be about the same.

TLS hates Iowa for some reason. Most likely because it's, well, in Iowa and not located in a large market. But don't let a bunch of 21 and 22-yr-olds dictate how you feel about a law school.

I've talked EXTENSIVELY to attorneys and judges, young and old, and they all say the same thing about Iowa/Wisconsin/MN/Illinois...they're great schools and you really can't go wrong.

Point is, the difference is so small between them that you should go with your gut...

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Vincent Vega
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby Vincent Vega » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:58 am

Slimpee wrote:Point is, the difference is so small between them that you should go with your gut...


This was my argument earlier in this thread and people jumped on me about it.

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webbylu87
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby webbylu87 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:08 pm

Ultimately I am going to go with my gut as that's all I really can do. But to be quite honest, I don't think an extra $27k in debt is anything to shrug off. This is a significant amount of money. Yes, I will already be getting myself into a substantial amount of debt but I don't want to add more on to that pile if both schools are essentially the same in job prospects and reputation. What I'm trying to determine is whether or not they are in fact the same when it comes to job prospects, reputation, portability to larger markets, etc, etc...

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby XxSpyKEx » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:39 pm

webbylu87 wrote:I see this thread has gotten a second wind.

Ultimately I am going to go with my gut as that's all I really can do. But to be quite honest, I don't think an extra $27k in debt is anything to shrug off. This is a significant amount of money. Yes, I will already be getting myself into a substantial amount of debt but I don't want to add more on to that pile if both schools are essentially the same in job prospects and reputation. What I'm trying to determine is whether or not they are in fact the same when it comes to job prospects, reputation, portability to larger markets, etc, etc...


They are not the same job prospects. UIUC is marginally better. In a good economy this is what the 2 schools look like:
http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

UIUC placed 25% in biglaw (NLJ250, not v100), Iowa placed 15% in 05'.

Class of 2009- Iowa placed 40 people in biglaw, and UIUC placed 51 (or 7% better than Iowa)
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

However, ITE I wouldn't expect biglaw from either, but your odds will still be better at UIUC than at Iowa.

Also, neither school is any real portability. They are both regional schools. If you want portability then go to a national school (i.e. t14).

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webbylu87
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby webbylu87 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:45 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:I see this thread has gotten a second wind.

Ultimately I am going to go with my gut as that's all I really can do. But to be quite honest, I don't think an extra $27k in debt is anything to shrug off. This is a significant amount of money. Yes, I will already be getting myself into a substantial amount of debt but I don't want to add more on to that pile if both schools are essentially the same in job prospects and reputation. What I'm trying to determine is whether or not they are in fact the same when it comes to job prospects, reputation, portability to larger markets, etc, etc...


They are not the same job prospects. UIUC is marginally better. In a good economy this is what the 2 schools look like:
http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

UIUC placed 25% in biglaw (NLJ250, not v100), Iowa placed 15% in 05'.

Class of 2009- Iowa placed 40 people in biglaw, and UIUC placed 51 (or 7% better than Iowa)
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

However, ITE I wouldn't expect biglaw from either, but your odds will still be better at UIUC than at Iowa.

Also, neither school is any real portability. They are both regional schools. If you want portability then go to a national school (i.e. t14).


Biglaw is not my goal. I'm open to discovering a love for any form of law but for now PI/govt. is my focus. I'm looking for best career opportunities overall with a slight edge given to PI and govt work. If I do decide to go into traditional firm work, it will not be biglaw because I do want to have a family that I can spend time with. I want quality of life.

When I say I'm looking for portability, I mean Midwestern portability. I am at the moment thinking I'd like to live in St. Louis long-term. I don't wish to move to NYC, LA, Boston, or anything like that. I wouldn't mind it later but I like the Midwest and don't mind being here if it's in a larger city.

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webbylu87
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby webbylu87 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:48 pm

A week later and my decision hasn't gotten any easier. Returned to Champaign-Urbana last week and it made a fantastic impression on me. Everyone in the LS seemed bright and capable. The administration seemed committed to the students and finding them jobs. The atmosphere was great.

However, I'm becoming increasingly worried about the debt level required for Illinois (and at Iowa for that matter). I'm worried about attending a school which relies so heavily on one market (Chicago). While Iowa may not have one very strong foothold like Illinois, the breadth of placement may make any fluctuations across the midwest legal market easy to deal with. The idea of being saddled with $150k is not appetizing. Would I be crazy to pick Iowa over Illinois based on this logic? Still haven't decided.

cr073137
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby cr073137 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:53 pm

webbylu87 wrote:A week later and my decision hasn't gotten any easier. Returned to Champaign-Urbana last week and it made a fantastic impression on me. Everyone in the LS seemed bright and capable. The administration seemed committed to the students and finding them jobs. The atmosphere was great.

However, I'm becoming increasingly worried about the debt level required for Illinois (and at Iowa for that matter). I'm worried about attending a school which relies so heavily on one market (Chicago). While Iowa may not have one very strong foothold like Illinois, the breadth of placement may make any fluctuations across the midwest legal market easy to deal with. The idea of being saddled with $150k is not appetizing. Would I be crazy to pick Iowa over Illinois based on this logic? Still haven't decided.


Yes, you are crazy. Illinois doesnt "depend" on Chicago's market, most of it is self placement. A big percentage of Illinois students are from the midwest and want to end up in Chicago when they graduate, is not that they HAVE to end up in Chicago. Illinois places fairly well in other markets. It is not the biggest name school, but it will take you to other places if you really want to, just more work.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby DerrickRose » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:56 pm

webbylu87 wrote:A week later and my decision hasn't gotten any easier. Returned to Champaign-Urbana last week and it made a fantastic impression on me. Everyone in the LS seemed bright and capable.


You must not have seen me.

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webbylu87
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby webbylu87 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:57 pm

cr073137 wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:A week later and my decision hasn't gotten any easier. Returned to Champaign-Urbana last week and it made a fantastic impression on me. Everyone in the LS seemed bright and capable. The administration seemed committed to the students and finding them jobs. The atmosphere was great.

However, I'm becoming increasingly worried about the debt level required for Illinois (and at Iowa for that matter). I'm worried about attending a school which relies so heavily on one market (Chicago). While Iowa may not have one very strong foothold like Illinois, the breadth of placement may make any fluctuations across the midwest legal market easy to deal with. The idea of being saddled with $150k is not appetizing. Would I be crazy to pick Iowa over Illinois based on this logic? Still haven't decided.


Yes, you are crazy. Illinois doesnt "depend" on Chicago's market, most of it is self placement. A big percentage of Illinois students are from the midwest and want to end up in Chicago when they graduate, is not that they HAVE to end up in Chicago. Illinois places fairly well in other markets. It is not the biggest name school, but it will take you to other places if you really want to, just more work.


Fair enough. And I'm fully willing to admit I could be one of those self-placed Chicagoans in 3 years it's just that I'm not totally sold on the Chicago market and would like some other midwest options down the road. I'm not unused to hard work. I am from the midwest after all :) Like I said, I'm just suffering from sticker shock and am wondering if Illinois is worth the debt.

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webbylu87
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby webbylu87 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:58 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:A week later and my decision hasn't gotten any easier. Returned to Champaign-Urbana last week and it made a fantastic impression on me. Everyone in the LS seemed bright and capable.


You must not have seen me.


Apparently not.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby DerrickRose » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:00 pm

webbylu87 wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:A week later and my decision hasn't gotten any easier. Returned to Champaign-Urbana last week and it made a fantastic impression on me. Everyone in the LS seemed bright and capable.


You must not have seen me.


Apparently not.


I was the shabbily dressed one reading TLS in the library.

Slimpee
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby Slimpee » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:01 pm

What're your deadlines?

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webbylu87
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby webbylu87 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:09 pm

DerrickRose wrote:I was the shabbily dressed one reading TLS in the library.


I take it you're a current student? Have any good insights?


Slimpee wrote:What're your deadlines?


Iowa deposit is due tomorrow. The Illinois deadline is April 30th.

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Jerome
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby Jerome » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:24 pm

webbylu87 wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:I was the shabbily dressed one reading TLS in the library.


I take it you're a current student? Have any good insights?


Slimpee wrote:What're your deadlines?


Iowa deposit is due tomorrow. The Illinois deadline is April 30th.

Deposit at Iowa. It isn't a ton of money to forfeit if you have to.

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webbylu87
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Re: Iowa vs. Illinois ($)

Postby webbylu87 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:28 pm

Jerome wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:I was the shabbily dressed one reading TLS in the library.


I take it you're a current student? Have any good insights?


Slimpee wrote:What're your deadlines?


Iowa deposit is due tomorrow. The Illinois deadline is April 30th.

Deposit at Iowa. It isn't a ton of money to forfeit if you have to.


That's my plan. Still need to decide if Illinois offers better career prospects though. Hmmm...




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