Exit Options (GULC, Cornell, UIUC, Michigan, Chicago)

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jpSartre
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Exit Options (GULC, Cornell, UIUC, Michigan, Chicago)

Postby jpSartre » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:41 pm

With PT scores plateauing at 169, I'm starting to see where I'll prolly end up

My question is, what are the exit option differences between these schools:

Georgetown
Cornell
UIUC
Michigan
and Chicago (as a comparison to what i wont get)

GULC, Cornell, UIUC:

I can probably get in at GULC and Cornell, and UIUC with money. Between these schools, what are the job opportunities after graduation for someone at or above the median? Will the jobs be vastly different? Will the law school courses to choose from be so different as to take my down different paths of law?

Michigan:

Would the type of law available to study be different, will the exit options be THAT different from UIUC in terms of the type of law I'm able to practice right out of school (in Chicago)? How would the courses here be different than UIUC?

Chicago

Obviously would allow much better chances at big law and clerkships. But I'm not entirely interested in that (looking for a mid-law sweet spot, whose existence should probably be saved for another topic...). Would the courses here be that different from elsewhere?
Last edited by jpSartre on Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Exit Options (GULC, Cornell, UIUC, Michigan, Chicago)

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:44 pm

It's usually better to ask for help deciding between schools after you actually have a shot at them. You haven't even taken the LSAT yet, you haven't given any other info, you have no clue which of these schools you could get into and we don't either. I can rule out Chicago with a 169, but I don't even know if you're going to remain stuck at 169. You could climb out of it by June, and then it'd be a whole new conversation.

Take the LSAT, find out what you actually get, look at your total stats and consider what schools you have a shot at, and then post. You'll get much more useful advice then.

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jpSartre
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Re: Exit Options (GULC, Cornell, UIUC, Michigan, Chicago)

Postby jpSartre » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:47 pm

I see what you mean. At the same time I'm still very interested in the difference between job opportunities for different schools, and the effect of course difference on my legal career and intellectual development. This information doesn't change based on my scores, nor do I anticipate my school preferences changing much. Any info on that?
Last edited by jpSartre on Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ggocat
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Re: Exit Options (GULC, Cornell, UIUC, Michigan, Chicago)

Postby ggocat » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:48 pm

vanwinkle wrote:Take the LSAT, find out what you actually get, look at your total stats and consider what schools you have a shot at, and then post. You'll get much more useful advice then.

+1

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smov_operator
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Re: Exit Options (GULC, Cornell, UIUC, Michigan, Chicago)

Postby smov_operator » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:51 pm

ggocat wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:Take the LSAT, find out what you actually get, look at your total stats and consider what schools you have a shot at, and then post. You'll get much more useful advice then.

+1


Or even better yet, get into these schools first and then start the debating.

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jpSartre
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Re: Exit Options (GULC, Cornell, UIUC, Michigan, Chicago)

Postby jpSartre » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:55 pm

How helpful. I'm curious about the differences between law school curricula, and the job opportunities available from different schools. I don't remember asking whether I should be wondering about these things yet, though i have received three answers to this question... Anyone who knows an answer to my initial question think my particular life circumstances make me worthy of an answer?

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TTTennis
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Re: Exit Options (GULC, Cornell, UIUC, Michigan, Chicago)

Postby TTTennis » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:00 pm

jpSartre wrote:I see what you mean. At the same time I'm still very interested in the difference between job opportunities for different schools, and the effect of course difference on my legal career and intellectual development. This information doesn't change based on my scores, nor do I anticipate my school preferences changing much. Any info on that?


Well it doesn't really matter if your preferences change, because if you don't actually get a high enough score (or are not accepted to any of these schools) it won't matter, because you won't be able to attend, regardless of their exit options or class differences. Take the test then worry about it.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Exit Options (GULC, Cornell, UIUC, Michigan, Chicago)

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:02 pm

jpSartre wrote:I see what you mean. At the same time I'm still very interested in the difference between job opportunities for different schools, and the effect of course difference on my legal career and intellectual development. Any info on that?

Well, to be honest, "course difference" isn't a really big determining factor on future success. Clinics can be, especially if you want to do PI work when you graduate, since they allow you to build up a resume of real-world PI work experience while you're still in law school. However, to find out about those all you really need to do is go to the school's website and look at what clinical programs they offer.

(Columbia seems to be an exception to this; for some reason they do a number of "externships" that are similar to clinics but that they don't call clinics or list on their clinics program, creating a perception their resources are lower than they actually are.)

What makes a huge difference in job opportunities is prestige of degree and alumni networking, your resume (which is where things like clinics can come in, as well as journals/Law Review, etc.), and post-graduation factors like clerkships (which means looking at how well a school can place grads into clerkships). Oh, and your law school GPA is important. These are the things that will matter the most.

There are not that many courses that matter that much in hiring that aren't universally offered. If you want corporate law you're going to be able to take Corporations, Agency, and other such classes just about anywhere. If you want criminal law you'll find Evidence, Criminal Procedure, and Trial Advocacy anywhere. There are some programs at some schools that are better than others... but again, you're asking for way too much information right now. You're basically saying "There are 200 schools out there, which offers me the best chances of employment when I graduate?" without even telling us what you want to do.

All you say is you want a "sweet" MidLaw job, but what does that even mean? There are so many focused smaller law firms out there that you might want to work for, some focusing on transactional law, some focusing on IP, some focusing on corporate litigation, some focusing on criminal defense resources...

Plus, many smaller firms follow the opposite of the BigLaw model. They don't hire directly out of law school, or if they do, they don't hire a huge class with the intention of paring them down after a few years. They'll focus more on people who're capable of doing the specific work they do and who want to stick around. As such it can be a lot harder to find such a law firm to work for when you graduate; many like letting the BigLaw firms train you and then hire you as an experienced lawyer.

There are just too many variables, and everyone is telling you to come back later because you are paying attention to the wrong things now. To give you any kind of useful information about your post-graduation employment opportunities we'd need to know 1) your actual numbers (GPA and LSAT once you get them) so we know where you have a realistic chance of going, and 2) your intentions, as specifically as possible. You can't provide those until about July at the earliest. There'll be plenty of time then to decide where to go, but until then nobody can point you in the right direction because there's far too much unresolved.

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jpSartre
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Re: Exit Options (GULC, Cornell, UIUC, Michigan, Chicago)

Postby jpSartre » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:08 pm

Thanks vanwinkle, that was really helpful. I see what you're saying, and it seems from your advice I should really be focusing on what type of law I want to pursue. I appreciate the detail in pointing out that I'm jumping the gun too

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smov_operator
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Re: Exit Options (GULC, Cornell, UIUC, Michigan, Chicago)

Postby smov_operator » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:09 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
jpSartre wrote:I see what you mean. At the same time I'm still very interested in the difference between job opportunities for different schools, and the effect of course difference on my legal career and intellectual development. Any info on that?

Well, to be honest, "course difference" isn't a really big determining factor on future success. Clinics can be, especially if you want to do PI work when you graduate, since they allow you to build up a resume of real-world PI work experience while you're still in law school. However, to find out about those all you really need to do is go to the school's website and look at what clinical programs they offer.

(Columbia seems to be an exception to this; for some reason they do a number of "externships" that are similar to clinics but that they don't call clinics or list on their clinics program, creating a perception their resources are lower than they actually are.)

What makes a huge difference in job opportunities is prestige of degree and alumni networking, your resume (which is where things like clinics can come in, as well as journals/Law Review, etc.), and post-graduation factors like clerkships (which means looking at how well a school can place grads into clerkships). Oh, and your law school GPA is important. These are the things that will matter the most.

There are not that many courses that matter that much in hiring that aren't universally offered. If you want corporate law you're going to be able to take Corporations, Agency, and other such classes just about anywhere. If you want criminal law you'll find Evidence, Criminal Procedure, and Trial Advocacy anywhere. There are some programs at some schools that are better than others... but again, you're asking for way too much information right now. You're basically saying "There are 200 schools out there, which offers me the best chances of employment when I graduate?" without even telling us what you want to do.

All you say is you want a "sweet" MidLaw job, but what does that even mean? There are so many focused smaller law firms out there that you might want to work for, some focusing on transactional law, some focusing on IP, some focusing on corporate litigation, some focusing on criminal defense resources...

Plus, many smaller firms follow the opposite of the BigLaw model. They don't hire directly out of law school, or if they do, they don't hire a huge class with the intention of paring them down after a few years. They'll focus more on people who're capable of doing the specific work they do and who want to stick around. As such it can be a lot harder to find such a law firm to work for when you graduate; many like letting the BigLaw firms train you and then hire you as an experienced lawyer.

There are just too many variables, and everyone is telling you to come back later because you are paying attention to the wrong things now. To give you any kind of useful information about your post-graduation employment opportunities we'd need to know 1) your actual numbers (GPA and LSAT once you get them) so we know where you have a realistic chance of going, and 2) your intentions, as specifically as possible. You can't provide those until about July at the earliest. There'll be plenty of time then to decide where to go, but until then nobody can point you in the right direction because there's far too much unresolved.


Beautiful, Vanwinkle, Beautiful :cry:

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vanwinkle
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Re: Exit Options (GULC, Cornell, UIUC, Michigan, Chicago)

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:15 pm

jpSartre wrote:Thanks vanwinkle, that was really helpful. I see what you're saying, and it seems from your advice I should really be focusing on what type of law I want to pursue. I appreciate the detail in pointing out that I'm jumping the gun too

The other thing to focus on is where you want to practice law. Michigan and Chicago, for example, are top-ten law schools with national reach, so you can attend them with the intention of practicing anywhere. The further you go down the rankings the worse that's going to get, though; once you're down into the T25-30 range and dealing with schools like UIUC, the reach of that school is really going to be limited to Chicago and jobs inside Illinois.

That's not a problem if you like the idea of living in Chicago when you graduate, but it can be a reason to shoot for a school like Michigan if you can get in there. Michigan can get you into Chicago, but also give you options elsewhere in the country if you can't find what you want in Chicago when you graduate.

This is relevant now, because it could give you motivation to work harder on the LSAT and get a 170+ score. Such a high score would increase your odds of getting into such a national-reach school. That is the one thing you can improve right now; the better you do on the LSAT, the more geographic reach you can find in a school, if that's something you're looking for.




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