UPenn w/ $78k Scholly vs. Chicago at Sticker Forum

[rayiner]

Chicago is in a different league then Penn. There I said it.

[Core]

Who is this person? Why does it matter what he or she notices? Where is he or she looking? Do her "noticings" really trump the other considerations being weighed in the decision? I find it hard to believe they do. Desert Fox has TCR: Go to Penn.

Thanks

[09042014]

Chicago is in a different league then Penn. There I said it.

The question is whether 80k is enough to make up for the difference.

[Core]

Chicago is in a different league then Penn. There I said it.

The question is whether 80k is enough to make up for the difference.

Lol I thought Rayiner was being sarcastic.
How is it in a different league? The latest NLJ250 %s and USNEWS article 3 clerkship #s are within a few points of each other. What am I missing?

[rayiner]

Chicago is in a different league then Penn. There I said it.

The question is whether 80k is enough to make up for the difference.

Lol I thought Rayiner was being sarcastic.
How is it in a different league? The latest NLJ250 %s and USNEWS article 3 clerkship #s are within a few points of each other. What am I missing?

I was only somewhat joking. I think Chicago is a noticible notch above Penn (they place like double the COA clerks) and I definitely see them worth $80k. It you go PI that basically won't matter (IBR), and if you go biglaw it won't really matter either, not over the course of a career.

[motiontodismiss]

Penn w/ the $ ftw.

Especially if the OP wants to do PI.

[09042014]

Penn w/ the $ ftw.

Especially if the OP wants to do PI.

Quite the opposite.

[motiontodismiss]

Penn w/ the $ ftw.

Especially if the OP wants to do PI.

Quite the opposite.

Less debt>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LRAP.

LRAP is not a sure thing. $78k cash (or a discount, however you look at it) over three years definitely is.

[09042014]

Penn w/ the $ ftw.

Especially if the OP wants to do PI.

Quite the opposite.

Less debt>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LRAP.

Depends on how much less. 130 compared to 210? Take the 210.

[Rand M.]

Penn w/ the $ ftw.

Especially if the OP wants to do PI.

Quite the opposite.

Why do people always think PI means follow the money? The logic behind doing that is really flimsy.

[creamedcats]

I knew Penn was going to win this poll, but I had no idea it would be such a landslide. It currently stands at 23-0.

Congrats on your great options, Core!

Chicago, even more hated by TLSers than Penn.

$78K, with long-term goals of DC? This was a no-brainer, and I really like Chicago.

Very easy choice, Penn, unless you get into HYS.

[fortissimo]

Penn w/ the $ ftw.

Especially if the OP wants to do PI.

Quite the opposite.

Why do people always think PI means follow the money? The logic behind doing that is really flimsy.

PI isn't as prestige whorish. Plus LRAP and IBR are not reliable and they are both contingent on a lot of elements. If you get married and your spouse is not broke/poor/below average, you prob won't be qualified for any LRAPs in the t-14.

[Rand M.]

Quite the opposite.

Why do people always think PI means follow the money? The logic behind doing that is really flimsy.

PI isn't as prestige whorish. Plus LRAP and IBR are not reliable and they are both contingent on a lot of elements. If you get married and your spouse is not broke/poor/below average, you prob won't be qualified for any LRAPs in the t-14.

I get what you're saying, but Chicago's LRAP doesn't look at spousal earnings or assets at all.

I was just more talking about blanket statements that PI means you always need to take the money. Some PI stuff is really exclusive.

[d34d9823]

So I'm bumping this.
This is pathetic but I am developing regrets about not taking Chicago despite the scholarship. This is nothing new, but I spoke to a Harvard student yesterday who talked about the gap between Chicago and Penn as being enourmous - "The only schools I really notice are Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, Columbia, and sometimes NYU."
I would really appreciate if anyone can help talk me out of this. It's really starting to get to me. I thought I wanted to do PI but at this point I'm open to anything - all I can say for certain is that I'm most interested in working in NYC. Ugh.

Follow your heart, dude. The best decision for the average person in this circumstance would be Penn, but if you want Chicago, take it. $80K is really not that much over the span of a lifetime and no amount of money can equal the regret of not going for what you really wanted.

[Emma.]

Follow your heart, dude. The best decision for the average person in this circumstance would be Penn, but if you want Chicago, take it. $80K is really not that much over the span of a lifetime and no amount of money can equal the regret of not going for what you really wanted.

This.

I ended up choosing Chicago over better schollys at Boalt and Mich, but in the end after weighing up all the factors (both professional and personal) Chi just seemed like the best fit for me. Would it have been nice to graduate more or less debt free? For sure, but overall I think it is going to be worth it for me to pay for Chicago.

If, OTOH, you feel good about Penn but are just worried about it because someone from HLS told you Chi is a better school, I think you need to take the money and run.

[tamlyric]

Follow your heart, dude. The best decision for the average person in this circumstance would be Penn, but if you want Chicago, take it. $80K is really not that much over the span of a lifetime and no amount of money can equal the regret of not going for what you really wanted.

This.

I ended up choosing Chicago over better schollys at Boalt and Mich, but in the end after weighing up all the factors (both professional and personal) Chi just seemed like the best fit for me. Would it have been nice to graduate more or less debt free? For sure, but overall I think it is going to be worth it for me to pay for Chicago.

If, OTOH, you feel good about Penn but are just worried about it because someone from HLS told you Chi is a better school, I think you need to take the money and run.

THESE.

[JollyGreenGiant]

sidenote: would chicago let you in still even tho you missed the deposit deadline?

and I think you should go where you'd feel best comfortable as well as the best school for your needs. $78k likely won't be a large sum in the long run, but it certainly is now and will be for the couple of years after graduation. I wouldn't go to Chicago simply because some random HLS guy said something about it.

[beesknees]

As much as I love drawing arbitrary distinctions as much as the next poster, why are so many just buying into the "Chicago is on a completely different level" mentality without any thought or actual data?

According the actual class placement statistics for '09, Penn and Chicago are pretty much peers regardless of the typical CCN vs MVP distinction. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=108528

I will concede that Chicago grads might be more likely to get the more prestigious gigs of these top firms and clerkships. Also, this data was before the recession truly hit, so it could be that Chicago will pull ahead in c/o '10 and on. Nor would I argue that Chicago is probably better for academia. However, it just irks me when posters here use the "different level" argument to justify tens of thousands of dollars in extra debt without citing some actual data to back up their claim or attempting to reference the person's goals/aspirations that could change the game as well.

OP: go to the best school for you. Don't let some dbag from Harvard make you second-guess yourself because he might be trying to justify his own decisions.

[dresden doll]

I posted about this in another thread, and everybody pretty much said Penn was the better choice, but I figure it can only help to get further insight.
I received a $78,000 award (mixture of a grant and a Dean's Scholarship) from Penn and absolutely nothing from Chicago. Negotiation with Chicago got me nowhere, save for a rude response from their financial aid dean. I am really enamored with Chicago, and Penn seems to be a step down, based on these boards and various rankings, so I don't know what to do - hence the creation of this thread. I have apps pending at CLS, HLS, and SLS, but I'd like to be able to decide between Penn and Chicago asap.
My ultimate goal is do get a government, nonprofit, or ngo job in NYC (D.C. is my second choice). I am not interested in Biglaw for the long term but am not opposed to doing it for a year or two directly after graduation. I am also somewhat interested in doing a clerkship after graduation.
Any insight would be much appreciated.

exactly what about chicago enamores?

The faculty, tiny class size, curriculum, amazing placement in just about everything, push for and assistance with publishing, and the quarter system.
$78,000 is just hard to turn down.

I'd seriously go with Penn unless you love Chi THAT MUCH. I enjoy my school, but that's way too much money to turn down for anything that isn't HYS.

-Chicago 1L

[Core]

I posted about this in another thread, and everybody pretty much said Penn was the better choice, but I figure it can only help to get further insight.
I received a $78,000 award (mixture of a grant and a Dean's Scholarship) from Penn and absolutely nothing from Chicago. Negotiation with Chicago got me nowhere, save for a rude response from their financial aid dean. I am really enamored with Chicago, and Penn seems to be a step down, based on these boards and various rankings, so I don't know what to do - hence the creation of this thread. I have apps pending at CLS, HLS, and SLS, but I'd like to be able to decide between Penn and Chicago asap.
My ultimate goal is do get a government, nonprofit, or ngo job in NYC (D.C. is my second choice). I am not interested in Biglaw for the long term but am not opposed to doing it for a year or two directly after graduation. I am also somewhat interested in doing a clerkship after graduation.
Any insight would be much appreciated.

exactly what about chicago enamores?

The faculty, tiny class size, curriculum, amazing placement in just about everything, push for and assistance with publishing, and the quarter system.
$78,000 is just hard to turn down.

I'd seriously go with Penn unless you love Chi THAT MUCH. I enjoy my school, but that's way too much money to turn down for anything that isn't HYS.

-Chicago 1L

Thanks - I'll be doing just that.
I think I overreacted to the Harvard kid's comment and took it way too seriously. Thanks for the advice everyone!

[Core]

According the actual class placement statistics for '09, Penn and Chicago are pretty much peers regardless of the typical CCN vs MVP distinction. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=108528

Yea, it seems that way, except when it comes to academia and geographic placement (Chicago > Penn outside of the northeast, for example).

[romothesavior]

Penn w/ the $ ftw.

Especially if the OP wants to do PI.

Quite the opposite.

Less debt>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LRAP.

LRAP is not a sure thing. $78k cash (or a discount, however you look at it) over three years definitely is.

This is annoying. The equation here isn't less debt>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LRAP.

The real equation is: PI IBR + Better Job Prospects>>>>>>>>PI IBR + lesser job prospects. You should take the better school for PI whenever you can. You're going to end up paying about the same over 10 years anyway an then... POOF! Debt gone. Give me the better job prospects any day.

Either way, congrats on the options OP and good luck.

[d34d9823]

Thanks - I'll be doing just that.
I think I overreacted to the Harvard kid's comment and took it way too seriously. Thanks for the advice everyone!

I think you also have to realize that Harvard kids are obsessed with prestige almost by definition.

[motiontodismiss]

This is annoying. The equation here isn't less debt>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LRAP.

The real equation is: PI IBR + Better Job Prospects>>>>>>>>PI IBR + lesser job prospects. You should take the better school for PI whenever you can. You're going to end up paying about the same over 10 years anyway an then... POOF! Debt gone. Give me the better job prospects any day.

Either way, congrats on the options OP and good luck.

And what if god forbid in 2023 the OP decides to move on to biglaw/inhouse or worse, Chicago goes bankrupt like Boalt and decides to cancel IBR/LRAP or greatly reduce it? Or god forbid buys a house or something? Or god forbid, OP makes $500k in the stock market in 2023 and suddenly Chicago decides he can afford to repay the $200k? PI jobs pay like $50k a year. That's not a lot of money to live on, let alone make $2k in loan payments a month. That's the equivalent of another mortgage.

For biglaw, $80k in the long run is about $800 a month in payments, assuming 10 year amortization and about 5% interest. Which for a student loan btw is impossible, unless OP somehow has $200k in equity in a house he can borrow against.

[rayiner]

IBR is federal and IBR for PI isn't going anywhere. And yes he could choose to go into private practice, but at biglaw salaries you can pay off the difference in probably a year and a half. It makes no sense to take the money unless you want to do small law.