GULC $ v Duke $

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gatorgirl24
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GULC $ v Duke $

Postby gatorgirl24 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:40 am

Hey all,

Just looking for some opinions. I'm in a dilemma because I got similar scholarship awards from both schools and can't make a decision despite the ranking difference. Anyone have any insight about these two? The main factor complicating things is the fact that I would prefer to live in a major metro area...

Still waiting to hear back from UPenn and Columbia because I applied super late in the cycle (172/3.6), so not even sure I would have a shot at another option.

Thanks!

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pearl_earrings
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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby pearl_earrings » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:32 am

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Last edited by pearl_earrings on Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thickfreakness
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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby thickfreakness » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:42 am

Duke-- better placement, smaller class size, better student culture and community, better facilities, lower COL

GULC-- in DC, huge class size, competitive students, inferior job placement

If you're just dying to live in a big city for law school then go for GULC, but I don't really see a lot of scenarios where it makes sense to pick GULC over Duke, money being close or equal.

DEKOCARDS
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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby DEKOCARDS » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:00 pm

thickfreakness wrote:Duke-- better placement, smaller class size, better student culture and community, better facilities, lower COL

GULC-- in DC, huge class size, competitive students, inferior job placement

If you're just dying to live in a big city for law school then go for GULC, but I don't really see a lot of scenarios where it makes sense to pick GULC over Duke, money being close or equal.


Ouch, Georgetown waitlisted you? Still stings some I s'pose.

I don't come to these boards often, so forgive me if try to question a seemingly monolithic wave of bias against my school. The anti-GULC lobby is strong here I'm afraid.

No one at the school, whom I've spoken to, believes that the class size is a detriment to the school. Nor is the school anymore competitive than other schools. In fact, I think that Georgetown students, largely as a result of extremely diverse interests, are more collegial than students I've met from other schools.

Further, I'm not completely convinced that the disparity in placement (7% in the latest NLJ ratings), is a symptom of Georgetown's inability to "place" its students. Most people I know have the 2L summer jobs that they want, or at least a close proxy. Some of my best friends never participated in OCI, simply because they were set on taking Jobs with the ACLU or Southern Poverty Law Center (Which I know several have gotten).

PM me if you want to talk more about my experience at Georgetown.

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DallasCowboy
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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby DallasCowboy » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:22 pm

Live in the lofts in Durham,then do Duke in DC. We need more Gators!

yourdadcalled
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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby yourdadcalled » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:27 pm

thickfreakness wrote:Duke-- better placement, smaller class size, better student culture and community, better facilities, lower COL

GULC-- in DC, huge class size, competitive students, inferior job placement

If you're just dying to live in a big city for law school then go for GULC, but I don't really see a lot of scenarios where it makes sense to pick GULC over Duke, money being close or equal.


Georgetown waitlist CONFIRMED

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lalablondie28
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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby lalablondie28 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:41 pm

OP: I'm in the same situation... I love Duke, except that its not DC (and its 5 hours away from all my friends/ serious bf). I'm currently negotiating for a higher scholarship to GULC. I'm almost afraid of getting the amount I asked for because then I REALLY have to make a decision between what seems like a fantastic career move (duke) vs. a school/area I love.

I'd love to see how it turns out for us! good luck!

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soullesswonder
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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby soullesswonder » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:44 pm

DEKOCARDS wrote:
thickfreakness wrote:Duke-- better placement, smaller class size, better student culture and community, better facilities, lower COL

GULC-- in DC, huge class size, competitive students, inferior job placement

If you're just dying to live in a big city for law school then go for GULC, but I don't really see a lot of scenarios where it makes sense to pick GULC over Duke, money being close or equal.


Further, I'm not completely convinced that the disparity in placement (7% in the latest NLJ ratings), is a symptom of Georgetown's inability to "place" its students. Most people I know have the 2L summer jobs that they want, or at least a close proxy. Some of my best friends never participated in OCI, simply because they were set on taking Jobs with the ACLU or Southern Poverty Law Center (Which I know several have gotten).


So you really have no convincing explanation for why GULC's placement is inferior, unless you're implying that other schools don't also have students who skip OCI

yourdadcalled wrote:
thickfreakness wrote:Duke-- better placement, smaller class size, better student culture and community, better facilities, lower COL

GULC-- in DC, huge class size, competitive students, inferior job placement

If you're just dying to live in a big city for law school then go for GULC, but I don't really see a lot of scenarios where it makes sense to pick GULC over Duke, money being close or equal.


Georgetown waitlist CONFIRMED


I think the fact that the GULC trolls have nothing but ad hominem attacks says volumes about the strength of the school vis a vis Duke. Btw, Duke places twice the percentage of grads into federal clerkships.

If you want to live in a major metro area, you can always go back to NYC/DC after you graduate. In the meantime, why not enjoy the lower COL? The Triangle isn't DC, but it does have over a million people, so it's hardly a cow town.

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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby DEKOCARDS » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:58 pm

soullesswonder wrote:I think the fact that the GULC trolls have nothing but ad hominem attacks says volumes about the strength of the school vis a vis Duke. Btw, Duke places twice the percentage of grads into federal clerkships.


Honestly, there was no substance in that post aside from the same tripe that gets spread by 0Ls about Georgetown -- large class size, competitive students. I don't think questioning potential prejudice is unreasonable in that situation.

soullesswonder wrote:So you really have no convincing explanation for why GULC's placement is inferior, unless you're implying that other schools don't also have students who skip OCI


Yes, I think that people who go to a school like Duke are looking for a much different type of career than a student at GULC. Is that really a question? They couldn't be more different schools. I'm not arguing GULC has better placement, I just don't think the disparity is huge. It seems natural to me that Duke students would more often go the Clerkship/Big Law route (which is coincidentally my career path so far).

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soullesswonder
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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby soullesswonder » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:08 pm

DEKOCARDS wrote:
soullesswonder wrote:I think the fact that the GULC trolls have nothing but ad hominem attacks says volumes about the strength of the school vis a vis Duke. Btw, Duke places twice the percentage of grads into federal clerkships.


Honestly, there was no substance in that post aside from the same tripe that gets spread by 0Ls about Georgetown -- large class size, competitive students. I don't think questioning potential prejudice is unreasonable in that situation.


large class size is a fact, period. I think there's a good argument to be made that GULC students [i]have[i] to be competitive to some extent (even if they're not being nasty about it) b/c GULC's home market is itself competitive and they have to fend off other students from higher ranked schools. The argument for small schools with natl placement (like Duke) is that you're less likely to be directly competing against your classmates for the same job. You might debate that, but it's definitely not the blind prejudicial crap posted above. The idea that a Duke admit would trash GULC for a waitlist is ludicrous.

DEKOCARDS wrote:
soullesswonder wrote:So you really have no convincing explanation for why GULC's placement is inferior, unless you're implying that other schools don't also have students who skip OCI


Yes, I think that people who go to a school like Duke are looking for a much different type of career than a student at GULC. Is that really a question? They couldn't be more different schools. I'm not arguing GULC has better placement, I just don't think the disparity is huge. It seems natural to me that Duke students would more often go the Clerkship/Big Law route (which is coincidentally my career path so far).


Uh, yeah, it is a question - you just made a blind statement about the career goals of Duke grads without presenting any supporting evidence. I can't tell if you're saying Duke grads don't like PI or Gov work b/c they went to Durham instead of DC, or whether you're just saying that the Duke culture (really laid back, btw) is more conducive to BigLaw or Bust types. Either one would be a really weak argument.

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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby DEKOCARDS » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:23 pm

soullesswonder wrote:
DEKOCARDS wrote:
soullesswonder wrote:I think the fact that the GULC trolls have nothing but ad hominem attacks says volumes about the strength of the school vis a vis Duke. Btw, Duke places twice the percentage of grads into federal clerkships.


Honestly, there was no substance in that post aside from the same tripe that gets spread by 0Ls about Georgetown -- large class size, competitive students. I don't think questioning potential prejudice is unreasonable in that situation.


large class size is a fact, period. I think there's a good argument to be made that GULC students [i]have[i] to be competitive to some extent (even if they're not being nasty about it) b/c GULC's home market is itself competitive and they have to fend off other students from higher ranked schools. The argument for small schools with natl placement (like Duke) is that you're less likely to be directly competing against your classmates for the same job. You might debate that, but it's definitely not the blind prejudicial crap posted above. The idea that a Duke admit would trash GULC for a waitlist is ludicrous.

DEKOCARDS wrote:
soullesswonder wrote:So you really have no convincing explanation for why GULC's placement is inferior, unless you're implying that other schools don't also have students who skip OCI


Yes, I think that people who go to a school like Duke are looking for a much different type of career than a student at GULC. Is that really a question? They couldn't be more different schools. I'm not arguing GULC has better placement, I just don't think the disparity is huge. It seems natural to me that Duke students would more often go the Clerkship/Big Law route (which is coincidentally my career path so far).


Uh, yeah, it is a question - you just made a blind statement about the career goals of Duke grads without presenting any supporting evidence. I can't tell if you're saying Duke grads don't like PI or Gov work b/c they went to Durham instead of DC, or whether you're just saying that the Duke culture (really laid back, btw) is more conducive to BigLaw or Bust types. Either one would be a really weak argument.


FACTS ARE FACTS. I love 0Ls. "Huge Class Size" is not a factual statement. If he said that Georgetown graduated roughly 650 JDs, that would more closely approximate a "fact." The point isn't that Georgetown has a large class size, it's that people here love to throw it around as this Achille's heel that will destroy all your hope at becoming the lawyer you want to be.

You're making the same kind of unsubstantiated claims about culture and perceived competition. I'm basing my comments on my observations of both schools, having visited Duke and while attending Georgetown. We simply don't have any kind of data that could support either of our claims.

Further, it seems self-evident to me that people who choose a school in DC vs. Durham are likely looking for different things. Particularly among those who had the choice to go to either school. That this difference would extend to career goals does not seem like a stretch to me. I never said anything about a big-law or bust type, but to conclude that more people who chose a school in the Capital might be interested in Government, does not seem like a weak argument. But then, logic is based largely on context I suppose...
Last edited by DEKOCARDS on Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MissCongeniality
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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby MissCongeniality » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:25 pm

I would really visit both to help make this decision. I went to the Georgetown ASD immediately before Duke's ASO, and the two schools were starkly different. I personally felt more comfortable with Duke as far as the learning environment is concerned. They have an intimate size with faculty that seemed overwhelmingly interested in catering to students. On the other hand, Georgetown appealed to my "be where the action is" side, as they really crammed their D.C. location down our throats at the event. I'd be generically happy at either, but I found that Duke sold its overall experience better.

(Disclaimer: I've lived in cities all of my life and plan to live in D.C. afterward. I am biased in that I welcome the break from city life.)

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soullesswonder
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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby soullesswonder » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:35 pm

DEKOCARDS wrote:FACTS ARE FACTS. I love 0Ls. "Huge Class Size" is not a factual statement. If he said that Georgetown graduated roughly 650 JDs, that would more closely approximate a "fact." The point isn't that Georgetown has a large class size, it's that people here love to throw it around as this Achille's heel that will destroy all your hope at becoming the lawyer you want to be.

You're making the same kind of unsubstantiated claims about culture and perceived competition. I'm basing my comments on my observations of both schools, having visited Duke and while attending Georgetown. We simply don't have any kind of data that could support either of our claims.

Further, it seems self-evident to me that people who choose a school in DC vs. Durham are likely looking for different things. Particularly among those who had the chose to go to either school. That this difference would extend to career goals does not seem like a stretch to me. I never said anything about a big-law or bust type, but to conclude that more people who chose a school in the Capital might be interested in Government, does not seem like a weak argument. But then, logic is based largely on context I suppose...


And I love condescending law students. For those of us not bent on being overly technical, "GULC has a large class size" means the same thing as "GULC has around 3x the grads as Duke". And if you'd actually read my posts, you'd note that I didn't automatically assume that the culture of GULC was more competitive - I just said that they were more likely to actually be competing with each other for jobs. If you want to provide some data to the contrary (for instance, some data of a wider geographical spread for 2L summers, then I'd welcome that). I can't find any good geographic placement data on GULC, but I do have a full list of Duke's 2L placement, and it's pretty well spread out.

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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby DEKOCARDS » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:51 pm

soullesswonder wrote: And I love condescending law students. For those of us not bent on being overly technical, "GULC has a large class size" means the same thing as "GULC has around 3x the grads as Duke". And if you'd actually read my posts, you'd note that I didn't automatically assume that the culture of GULC was more competitive - I just said that they were more likely to actually be competing with each other for jobs. If you want to provide some data to the contrary (for instance, some data of a wider geographical spread for 2L summers, then I'd welcome that). I can't find any good geographic placement data on GULC, but I do have a full list of Duke's 2L placement, and it's pretty well spread out.


I wasn't really condescending, more appreciating the clarity of your world. I was there too a couple years ago. You've got to admit 0Ls tend to be very black and white in their analysis. Further, you began this rant by condescending to the "GULC Trolls" for their "ad hominems." Use of latin is always a great tool in condescension.

Actually I didn't even comment on whether you thought GULC was more or less competitive, I just said that you're making assumptions when you assume that one set of circumstances (e.g. students going to a smaller number of markets) makes a school more competitive. That assumption in and of itself raises a whole host of questions for which we have no real documentation. So you are making the same kinds of assumptions without any support. That's all I was pointing out. My evidence, while purely anecdotal, is that I've been here for almost two years now, and I've never experienced a competitive environment (my caveat is that I'm from the North East, so maybe I just don't notice a bit of well-natured competition).

There are some limited data on our website which show 42% of grads going to DC and 28% to NYC, 9% West Coast. Since NY and DC are the two largest legal markets in the States, these numbers are unsurprising. I bet there are better data somewhere, but I don't have time to look for it. I'm not sure how in the world you think this makes us more or less competitive than other schools, but I'd be happy to hear an analysis (rife with unsubstantiated assumptions, naturally).

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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby soullesswonder » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:02 pm

DEKOCARDS wrote:
soullesswonder wrote: And I love condescending law students. For those of us not bent on being overly technical, "GULC has a large class size" means the same thing as "GULC has around 3x the grads as Duke". And if you'd actually read my posts, you'd note that I didn't automatically assume that the culture of GULC was more competitive - I just said that they were more likely to actually be competing with each other for jobs. If you want to provide some data to the contrary (for instance, some data of a wider geographical spread for 2L summers, then I'd welcome that). I can't find any good geographic placement data on GULC, but I do have a full list of Duke's 2L placement, and it's pretty well spread out.


I wasn't really condescending, more appreciating the clarity of your world. I was there too a couple years ago. You've got to admit 0Ls tend to be very black and white in their analysis. Further, you began this rant by condescending to the "GULC Trolls" for their "ad hominems." Use of latin is always a great tool in condescension.

Actually I didn't even comment on whether you thought GULC was more or less competitive, I just said that you're making assumptions when you assume that one set of circumstances (e.g. students going to a smaller number of markets) makes a school more competitive. That assumption in and of itself raises a whole host of questions for which we have no real documentation. So you are making the same kinds of assumptions without any support. That's all I was pointing out. My evidence, while purely anecdotal, is that I've been here for almost two years now, and I've never experienced a competitive environment (my caveat is that I'm from the North East, so maybe I just don't notice a bit of well-natured competition).

There are some limited data on our website which shows 42% of grads going to DC and a bit 28% to NYC, 9% West Coast. Since NY and DC are the two largest legal markets in the States, these numbers are unsurprising. I bet there are better data somewhere, but I don't have time to look for it. I'm not sure how in the world you think this makes us more or less competitive than other schools, but I'd be happy to hear an analysis (rife with unsubstantiated assumptions, naturally).


42% to DC is a big number, and 70% to just two markets is a big number. You can demean my reasoning all you want, but if you're putting 70% of 650 into two market you're going to have more intra-school competition for firm jobs than a school that puts 40% of 200 into those same two markets (and yes, NYC and DC are the top two destinations for Duke grads).

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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby DEKOCARDS » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:14 pm

soullesswonder wrote: 42% to DC is a big number, and 70% to just two markets is a big number. You can demean my reasoning all you want, but if you're putting 70% of 650 into two market you're going to have more intra-school competition for firm jobs than a school that puts 40% of 200 into those same two markets (and yes, NYC and DC are the top two destinations for Duke grads).


For clarity, the figures I've cited include all employment, not simply private practice.

I think the nature of any OCI hiring will create intra-school competition. Generally the employers come with a fixed number of students from X school they wish to employ. They will interview some number greater than that fixed number and cut the students who don't compete as well. Georgetown has the largest on-campus recruiting event, because it is one of the largest schools. I'm not sure that simply having firms that come from the same market creates competition between students, it's more the fact that they are going for the same firms. This will happen at any school.

I wasn't demeaning your reasoning particularly, merely pointing out that any attempt to go from correlation to causation relies on assumptions. I don't want to demean you in any way. Sorry if it came off that way. I think there are valid arguments on all sides (nature of the business).

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soullesswonder
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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby soullesswonder » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:20 pm

DEKOCARDS wrote:
soullesswonder wrote: 42% to DC is a big number, and 70% to just two markets is a big number. You can demean my reasoning all you want, but if you're putting 70% of 650 into two market you're going to have more intra-school competition for firm jobs than a school that puts 40% of 200 into those same two markets (and yes, NYC and DC are the top two destinations for Duke grads).


For clarity, the figures I've cited include all employment, not simply private practice.

I think the nature of any OCI hiring will create intra-school competition. Generally the employers come with a fixed number of students from X school they wish to employ. They will interview some number greater than that fixed number and cut the students who don't compete as well. Georgetown has the largest on-campus recruiting event, because it is one of the largest schools. I'm not sure that simply having firms that come from the same market creates competition between students, it's more the fact that they are going for the same firms. This will happen at any school.

I wasn't demeaning your reasoning particularly, merely pointing out that any attempt to go from correlation to causation relies on assumptions. I don't want to demean you in any way. Sorry if it came off that way. I think there are valid arguments on all sides (nature of the business).


My figures were for all employment as well, and I would agree - the competition comes from students going for the same firms. As you say, that will happen at any school, but when you have more students heading for the same markets those students are more likely to be gunning for the same firms. That's my main point here, and I do respect your desire to defend your school - I was just really pissed off at the "GULC waitlist" drive-by posts.

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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby DEKOCARDS » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:32 pm

soullesswonder wrote: My figures were for all employment as well, and I would agree - the competition comes from students going for the same firms. As you say, that will happen at any school, but when you have more students heading for the same markets those students are more likely to be gunning for the same firms. That's my main point here, and I do respect your desire to defend your school - I was just really pissed off at the "GULC waitlist" drive-by posts.


My issue is that there are many schools with similar figures that don't get the same flak as Georgetown. Are NYU or Columbia deemed "super competitive" because they have 450, and 380 students who predominantly go into NYC Market? (And no I don't want to get into a comparison between GULC and those superior education institutions) I get sick of people throwing around these unfounded shibboleths about the school. Cornell hasn't gotten nearly as much flak for it's NLJ 250 numbers as Georgetown has, even though their numbers fell much more aggressively. There are plenty of theories regarding why the GULC bears the brunt of so much criticism, but I just grow weary of people giving what I think is uneducated advice to future students.

If you're choosing between two schools like Georgetown and Duke, and you want to live in a world-class city, there's absolutely no reason not to choose GULC (finances equal).

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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby soullesswonder » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:36 pm

DEKOCARDS wrote:
soullesswonder wrote: My figures were for all employment as well, and I would agree - the competition comes from students going for the same firms. As you say, that will happen at any school, but when you have more students heading for the same markets those students are more likely to be gunning for the same firms. That's my main point here, and I do respect your desire to defend your school - I was just really pissed off at the "GULC waitlist" drive-by posts.


My issue is that there are many schools with similar figures that don't get the same flak as Georgetown. Are NYU or Columbia deemed "super competitive" because they have 450, and 380 students who predominantly go into NYC Market? (And no I don't want to get into a comparison between GULC and those superior education institutions) I get sick of people throwing around these unfounded shibboleths about the school. Cornell hasn't gotten nearly as much flak for it's NLJ 250 numbers as Georgetown has, even though their numbers fell much more aggressively. There are plenty of theories regarding why the GULC bears the brunt of so much criticism, but I just grow weary of people giving what I think is uneducated advice to future students.

If you're choosing between two schools like Georgetown and Duke, and you want to live in a world-class city, there's absolutely no reason not to choose GULC (finances equal).


If it makes you feel better, I like to troll Cornell on a regular basis :P I don't think I'm alone in that hobby, either.

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Re: GULC $ v Duke $

Postby thickfreakness » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:21 am

Soullesswonder, thanks for expounding a bit on my very brief initial post in this thread.

To the GULC student, I apologize for taking what seemed like pot-shots at your school. I know three 2Ls at GULC and they've all expressed some dismay about their situation there, all for different reasons. So, as you have pointed out earlier in the thread, my statements about student atmosphere were based on anecdotal evidence. The waitlist comment wasn't really that necessary to the issue at hand, but suffice it to say I wasn't really that disappointed when I got the special preferred group within the double-secret waitlist e-mail (especially since my Vandy acceptance box arrived the next day).

Now, back to the thread at hand: I think that GULC's large class size DOES create some placement disadvantages, since firms usually like to spread out new hires from a variety of law schools to get the whole diversity thing going. Simply put, with 200 Duke grads and 650 GULC grads entering the market each year, those going for NYC/DC are going to face a situation where firms only will take so many new associates from a particular school. The math favors Duke in this equation, plain and simple.

I agree that GULC gets quite a negative rep on this site, for whatever reason. That being said, it still fields the most applications of any school in the country so I don't think the rest of the applicant pool is taking heed of "TLS wisdom" here.




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