Berkeley at sticker or UCI at half tuition? Forum

[lt0826]

Would you turn down Berkeley for UCLA at 1/2 tuition? Personally, I think that would be a foolish move--and I don't think anyone is seriously thinking that Irvine is going to vault UCLA any time soon.

This is a no-brainer. If we were talking UCLA or USC at full v. Irvine at half, you MIGHT have a decision to make.

It's about more than the rankings in comparing UCLA to Irvine to Boalt IMO. Irvine offers some things that other schools don't - like an awesome student/faculty ratio, and an entrepreneurial atmosphere. Some people will value that over ranking. So I don't know if a comparison to how you would decide if choice is UCLA vs Berkeley is fair here. But I can see reasons to pick 50% at UCLA over Berkeley also. If you are very connected to SoCal and don't plan on leaving, you might opt to save the 50% in tuition and go to UCLA.

[Aberzombie1892]

Berkeley Berkeley Berkeley. No question. If you do decide Irvine for some reason, at least wait for this year's rankings (April 15th) before sending in a deposit.

Irvine won't be ranked this year will they?

they haven't even graduated a class yet, so they have no employment numbers, no bar passage rate, and even if they did their judge and lawyer score will be in the basement. (so it's in their interest to not be ranked yet)

They won't until they are fully accredited. That usually takes 2-3 years (however it can vary tremendously - but I'm assuming UCI will be on their stuff).

Even when they are ranked, I cannot imagine what their Lawyer/Judge score would be (it would depend on the distribution of the surveys and where geographically the most surveys are returned - i.e. I know at least 30% of the surveys go to new york).

[tallboone]

a previous poster was correct: http://abovethelaw.com/2010/03/uc-irvin ... has-a-job/

the only reason i couldn't go to UCI is that i grew up in OC and really don't like the place. i definitely prefer San Diego/LA/the Bay Area

[hans3n]

I guess there really aren't any Berkeley haters in this thread.

[fortissimo]

I guess there really aren't any Berkeley haters in this thread.

Berkeley is pretty overrated relative to other top 10 schools job prospects-wise (lowest placement in biglaw, lower clerkship placement), but UC Irvine isn't even accredited. It just seems risky.

[eaters333]

ya sure Berkeley is a risk, but ive lived in OC my whole life and UCI Law is a BIG DEAL. Berkeley is the sure thing but I think that coming out of UCI you will have really good opportunities some equal to that of a Boalt Graduate. Figure out where you want to spend the next three years and do it.

[Son of Cicero]

ya sure Berkeley is a risk, but ive lived in OC my whole life and UCI Law is a BIG DEAL. Berkeley is the sure thing

Huh?

So UCI is a "BIG DEAL" before people have even seen how UCI-trained lawyers (or even second-year students) perform in the workplace? You must circulate in a world of UC-obsessed idiots; maybe people who are considering UCI shouldn't pursue a degree that is only marketable in a place where everyone talks/thinks like Bill & Ted.

Also, how do your years of experience in "OC" even make a difference here? Have people been saying for the past decade that they would expect great things out of graduates of a UCI Law School, if only someone would take the time to establish such an institution?

[JollyGreenGiant]

Most of Boalt's finaid hasn't come out yet, so don't be so sure you won't have scholly money.

Also, I'd choose Boalt in this case. One is almost always T10 while the other is going to be quite good, but still unknown.

[mbv]

ya sure Berkeley is a risk, but ive lived in OC my whole life and UCI Law is a BIG DEAL. Berkeley is the sure thing

Huh?

So UCI is a "BIG DEAL" before people have even seen how UCI-trained lawyers (or even second-year students) perform in the workplace? You must circulate in a world of UC-obsessed idiots; maybe people who are considering UCI shouldn't pursue a degree that is only marketable in a place where everyone talks/thinks like Bill & Ted.

Also, how do your years of experience in "OC" even make a difference here? Have people been saying for the past decade that they would expect great things out of graduates of a UCI Law School, if only someone would take the time to establish such an institution?

I'm not sure if I'm understanding all of your concerns here, but I'll give it a shot.

I certainly do not think that UCI grads will underperform in the workplace. My reasoning is that the 1L students right now have good numbers and many of their professors are lateral transfers from T14's and other top law schools! According to Chemerinsky, they were recruited because they have won numerous teaching awards. With amazing proven professors, how can they REALLY vary that much from their peers in the workplace? Unless you think a 167 with a 3.6 is naturally less competent than someone who went to a T14 with a 168 and a 3.8, which I think most people would agree could get an applicant into at least 1 T14.

Have people been saying for the past decade that they would expect great things out of graduates of a UCI Law School, if only someone would take the time to establish such an institution? Actually yeah. UCI LS has been in progress since 1989 and has been receiving support and donations from BIG law firms in the area since that time. I spoke with biglaw and small firm partners at the UCI reception, who explained that many of their hires get trained in OC and work a few years there then leave, which is a costly problem for them. They want a feeder school in OC and UCI is it. They've donated hundreds of thousands over the years trying to bring this school into frutition.

I would agree that I think UCI grads will have the best opportunities in OC and that opportunities elsewhere will be more difficult.

[mbv]

Do I think you should pick UCI over Cal ?? I didn't respond to the survey because I don't know. I'm not in Berkeley, but facing a similar decision (T10 vs. UCI). PM me if you want to discuss! I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.

[ruleser]

Was at UCI ASD yesterday - completely wowed by UCI - and yes, better than an alum network, you have firms/judges/a whole unserved community that has invested a decade in building up this school and now are dying to help make the students successful and get the students coming from this incredible curriculum (mentors as 1L, pro bono work as 1L, lawyering skills class as 1L, entrepreneur types/starting reviews, etc) Especially ITE, I think alum networks are only worth so much.

But we are talking about Berkeley. I think it is unfortunate that Berkeley led the charge to jack up UC tuition even before the bad econ - just so they can game the rankings. They are the reason tuition has gone for 20K instate to 45K instate in a handful of years. Otherwise you'd be looking at UCI probably free and Berekely at 20ish K.

In any case, depends on who you are and what you want. UCI will be more regional, though from the connections of the politicians/judges/big law partners that I personally met yesterday, I think you'd have a personal hand getting you in any major city.

Berkeley, it's a known top notch quantity. You'll have good national ops. Only thing I'd say is if you have a few bad classes and are lower in the class ITE, you might get left out of both ops (review, etc) and jobs. UCI you will have all the ops you desire, and being in the frist few classes likely not have employment issues no matter where you are in the class.

The main point is do you want to go to a school that will guide you to success, or do you want to guide a school to success - I'm stoked about being able to start things - found reviews, clubs, etc, shape the philosophy, and the students I met yesterday were all the same type and the coolest people I've met at any school, passionate, fired up, and so are the profs, etc. If you'd be ok living in OC, or even LA I"d bet, and are the type that wants to forge or maybe has some life goals you want to achieve other than just getting a laywer job, UCI is the rarest of ops. Even at Harvard, you won't get to shape things/forge ground like this.

But if you don't want OC for sure, and would rather just get a top qual ed/pedigree so you get a solid job, go north...

[ViP]

Berkeley Berkeley Berkeley. No question. If you do decide Irvine for some reason, at least wait for this year's rankings (April 15th) before sending in a deposit.

Irvine won't be ranked this year will they?

they haven't even graduated a class yet, so they have no employment numbers, no bar passage rate, and even if they did their judge and lawyer score will be in the basement. (so it's in their interest to not be ranked yet)

They won't until they are fully accredited. That usually takes 2-3 years (however it can vary tremendously - but I'm assuming UCI will be on their stuff).

Even when they are ranked, I cannot imagine what their Lawyer/Judge score would be (it would depend on the distribution of the surveys and where geographically the most surveys are returned - i.e. I know at least 30% of the surveys go to new york).

Lawyers/judges have the option of saying "I have no idea" in response to the question, which would have a negligible effect on the score. However, those lawyers/judges that do know Irvine students are likely to give them high marks.

In terms of peer assessment (that by law school deans, deans of academic affairs, chairs of faculty appointments, and the most recently tenured faculty members), which is worth more in terms of US News, I can't imagine Irvine receiving anything but top honors (faculties know their worth).

[Dignan]

I guess there really aren't any Berkeley haters in this thread.

Berkeley is pretty overrated relative to other top 10 schools job prospects-wise (lowest placement in biglaw, lower clerkship placement), but UC Irvine isn't even accredited. It just seems risky.

I'm not sure about the big law part. For the most recent NLJ250 rankings, Berkeley is ahead of Duke, basically tied with NYU and Penn at 50%, and barely behind the other T10 schools. I don't think that Berkeley should be grouped with Chicago and Columbia, but I think they belong in the Top 10.

(And, although Berkeley's federal clerkship numbers are usually a little worse than Virginia's and Michigan's, Berkeley's placement in academia is better.)

[fortissimo]

I'm not sure about the big law part. For the most recent NLJ250 rankings, Berkeley is ahead of Duke, basically tied with NYU and Penn at 50%, and barely behind the other T10 schools. I don't think that Berkeley should be grouped with Chicago and Columbia, but I think they belong in the Top 10.

(And, although Berkeley's federal clerkship numbers are usually a little worse than Virginia's and Michigan's, Berkeley's placement in academia is better.)

No...not according to Leiter's rankings and not according to the placement numbers for this year, where Michigan tied with Berkeley.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml
http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2 ... eport.html

[tatoman]

Boalt. You will make that money back in no time.

[eldizknee]

.

[half_farang]

As a person who lives near Irvine, I'd have to say that graduates from UCI will not have much competition, and that means a lot. Most of the people in the orange county area are graduating from whittier and chapman, tier 2 schools. Sure, there is UCLA, but you also have the option of going down to San Diego and out shinning everyone from USD and thomas jefferson.

I think it also depends on what type of law you want to go into. If you think you are going to turn big bucks then maybe Berkley is best, but if you wanted to do something in public interest, definitely go for UCI

[tru]

.

[erniesto]

PI Focus? High Tuition? Southern California? Unaccredited? Only half tuition scholarships? Glitzy reviews of ASDs?

Sounds pretty TTT(T).

Though I do like the hypothesis that the first few classes will be well taken care of.

[KG_CalGuy]

Even though I think Berkeley is grossly overrated (let the "because you didn't get in there" bashing begin...), I still voted Berkeley over UCI. UCI may end up doing very well and from what I hear has a lot going for it. However, it's not going to have as much mobility over Boalt right off the bat (if ever). My suspicion is that UCI is going to be a primarily regional school for its early years. And, of course, let's not forgot that UCI's "region" includes already established programs at UCLA and USC. Boalt is the "safe" pick for now.

[jms1987]

What are job opportunities with larger firms like in OC? I'm just wondering...(0L here so it doesn't really matter yet)

[Dignan]

(And, although Berkeley's federal clerkship numbers are usually a little worse than Virginia's and Michigan's, Berkeley's placement in academia is better.)

No...not according to Leiter's rankings and not according to the placement numbers for this year, where Michigan tied with Berkeley.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml
http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2 ... eport.html

None of those links support your point. In the intro paragraph in the first link, Leiter points out that the sample population extends back to faculty hired in the 1950s. Later in the same paragraph, he notes that the ratings overestimate the academic placement potential of schools that have "slipped" in recent decades; he specifically mentions Michigan as an example of a school that slipped in the 1990s.

The second link has Berkeley ahead of Michigan.

The third link--which is where, I assume, you got the idea that Michigan is tied with Berkeley for the past year--actually shows Berkeley to be significantly ahead of Michigan (albeit for just a single year, which is not a big deal). Although each school had 11 graduates hired, Michigan is 35% larger than Berkeley. Usually, you measure these things relative to class size. If you use absolute numbers, you end up with misleading conclusions--e.g., "GULC is better than Michigan for big law because it places more grads per year into big law!"

I don't need think there are major differences--for either academia or big law--between Michigan and Berkeley. But, in recent years, Michigan has a slight advantage in big law, and Berkeley has a slight advantage in academia. They're peer schools.

[Son of Cicero]

I don't need think there are major differences--for either academia or big law--between Michigan and Berkeley. But, in recent years, Michigan has a slight advantage in big law, and Berkeley has a slight advantage in academia. They're peer schools.

Credited. The amount of time TLSers waste trying to create hierarchies based on fluctuating data or on variables that aren't even accounted for (such as preferences among students, which could make up almost all of the year to year rises and falls in the statistical data reported by peer schools) is saddening. If two schools are different enough for it to matter, you'll be able to spot it from far off. By the time aged federal judges, hiring partners, D.A.s, or anyone else who is going to affect your future in a meaningful way actually takes note of new hierarchies among the schools, everyone who checks U.S. News on a yearly basis will have been able to anticipate these shifts in perception for a long time.

[badfish]

I'm honored to be the first person to tell you that you are a fool. Dude, this is so obvious. Berkeley has been and will remain one of the 10 best schools in the nation, and it is one of the only places outside of HYSCCN that can still honestly boast the 160k median that we all dreamed of back in 2007. UCI is completely un-tested, and fvor decades will not have an alumni network to help you out. I can't believe they let people with your level of common sense into Berkeley.

Some people have an interest in law as a career beyond the $.

Those people need still need to pay back their loans.

[arhmcpo]

BerZerkely FTW. Irvine's cool. But not THAT cool.