tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

tOSU, U of AZ, or Case Western

Ohio State (in state + $9k/year)
34
65%
University of Arizona ($8k/year)
9
17%
Case Western ($20k/year)
9
17%
 
Total votes: 52

Whitters
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby Whitters » Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:27 pm

Well if you find it, let me know. I'm still thinking it over :)

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TTH
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby TTH » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:17 am

Notor wrote:Ohio State is better than Case. It has better placement statistics and it's incoming class is far superior to Case. Also, I am pretty sure that $20k from Case has a precarious GPA req. tOSU>Case every time, especially for an instate student.


<---Proof


Case shouldn't even be part of the discussion. I don't know enough about Arizona to comment meaningfully on it, but I imagine OSU reaches into more markets than 'Zona.

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darknightbegins
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby darknightbegins » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:59 am

TipTravHoot wrote:
Notor wrote:Ohio State is better than Case. It has better placement statistics and it's incoming class is far superior to Case. Also, I am pretty sure that $20k from Case has a precarious GPA req. tOSU>Case every time, especially for an instate student.


<---Proof


Case shouldn't even be part of the discussion. I don't know enough about Arizona to comment meaningfully on it, but I imagine OSU reaches into more markets than 'Zona.


Why would you imagine OSU reaches into more markets than Zona? Just because it is ranked a bit higher?

spondee
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby spondee » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:03 am

Whitters wrote:I prefer city life to suburbia.


Cities in Arizona are really just lots of suburbs in a row.

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TTH
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby TTH » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:35 am

darknightbegins wrote:
TipTravHoot wrote:
Notor wrote:Ohio State is better than Case. It has better placement statistics and it's incoming class is far superior to Case. Also, I am pretty sure that $20k from Case has a precarious GPA req. tOSU>Case every time, especially for an instate student.


<---Proof


Case shouldn't even be part of the discussion. I don't know enough about Arizona to comment meaningfully on it, but I imagine OSU reaches into more markets than 'Zona.


Why would you imagine OSU reaches into more markets than Zona? Just because it is ranked a bit higher?


Nope. Without probing in depth, it just seems there are more markets with more firms in Ohio and the cities surrounding Ohio than Arizona. Sure, Arizona is close-ish to LA, but does an Arizona JD get you very far there? I'm not asking rhetorically, but it doesn't seem to me that it does. I looked briefly at alreadybored and there were more firm offices listed in Ohio than Arizona. Plus, OSU has some reach into other midwestern markets.

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darknightbegins
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby darknightbegins » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:57 am

TipTravHoot wrote:
darknightbegins wrote:
TipTravHoot wrote:
Notor wrote:Ohio State is better than Case. It has better placement statistics and it's incoming class is far superior to Case. Also, I am pretty sure that $20k from Case has a precarious GPA req. tOSU>Case every time, especially for an instate student.


<---Proof


Case shouldn't even be part of the discussion. I don't know enough about Arizona to comment meaningfully on it, but I imagine OSU reaches into more markets than 'Zona.


Why would you imagine OSU reaches into more markets than Zona? Just because it is ranked a bit higher?


Nope. Without probing in depth, it just seems there are more markets with more firms in Ohio and the cities surrounding Ohio than Arizona. Sure, Arizona is close-ish to LA, but does an Arizona JD get you very far there? I'm not asking rhetorically, but it doesn't seem to me that it does. I looked briefly at alreadybored and there were more firm offices listed in Ohio than Arizona. Plus, OSU has some reach into other midwestern markets.


Fair enough. Phoenix obviously is a major market and larger than Columbus. Ohio has some reach into Chicago, or so I've heard, but I have no idea if it is basically as good a reach as Zona has reach to LA. I guess there would be bigger markets overall in the midwest. Other than Phoenix the major markets in the near Zona would be Albq, Vegas maybe Denver.

I don't have a problem with you giving OSU a slight edge. I think the weather at Zona more than makes up for any disadvantage, but that is just me.

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BigA
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby BigA » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:06 am

what is the t in tOSU for?

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PDaddy
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby PDaddy » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:16 am

bleu_dog wrote:I face a similar decision, although the schools I'm considering are tOSU, U of Arizona, and U of Wisconsin. I am very interested in others' opinions as to which one they would choose and why. I hope you don't mind my jumping onto your thread.


All of these schools are great, but your situation, with Wisconsin thrown in, is a bit different. Wisconsin is arguably the best school of those mentioned between OP's and your posts. What kind of money are you looking at? If you chose tOSU, nobody would call you crazy, though Wisconsin and Arizona are also great choices. You cannot lose no matter which one you pick.
Last edited by PDaddy on Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby PDaddy » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:17 am

BigA wrote:what is the t in tOSU for?


The school is called "The Ohio State University"

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BigA
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby BigA » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:20 am

PDaddy wrote:
BigA wrote:what is the t in tOSU for?


The school is called "The Ohio State University"


haha I figured that. I just had to know if people outside of sports actually said that :roll:

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PDaddy
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby PDaddy » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:21 am

BigA wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
BigA wrote:what is the t in tOSU for?


The school is called "The Ohio State University"


haha I figured that. I just had to know if people outside of sports actually said that :roll:


LOL. And I just had to see if you really didn't know.

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RVP11
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby RVP11 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:03 pm

sundevil77 wrote:Arizona is pretty messed up right now. :cry: Huge budget problems resulting from a real estate driven economy. In another thread I think someone pointed out that there are only 40 2L summer positions with big firms to be had in the Phoenix area. Figure in the competition from UA, ASU, other regional schools, and T14 kids that want to come out here and you're left with slim pickings.


I was the one who predicted 40 2L summer positions with big firms. I overestimated. It turned out to be more like 25-30 (down from 100+ a few years ago). And you're right to factor in how many people from T14s + schools like Texas/Vanderbilt/Iowa the big firms get (they maybe take up half of these spots?). And factor in that there are ~350 law students combined coming out of UofA/ASU each year. And even the market's leading firms have dropped salary from what used to be PHX market rate of $125k down to $100k or even below. And the market's top firm no-offered half their SA class last year.

Arizona is awesome. But the economy took maybe the biggest hit of any state in the country (see: worst budget deficit given the size of the state), and the legal market shows it.

On the plus side, Phoenix was a total boomtown prior to the economy crash, and when things start booming Phoenix and Arizona will likely be at the forefront again. But I wouldn't bet your lucky stars, or your law school tuition if you're paying OOS, on this happening before you interview as a 2L.

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RVP11
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby RVP11 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:25 pm

spondee wrote:
Whitters wrote:I prefer city life to suburbia.


Cities in Arizona are really just lots of suburbs in a row.


This is why you live in the city (Phoenix).

Suburbs in Arizona are like suburbs everywhere. They just have a whole lot more of em, and they're huge.

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Veyron
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby Veyron » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:49 pm

When will people ever learn ---> you pick schools outside of the top 20 based purely on the location you want to practice. You went to W and M, thats nice, welcome to ___(pick location)_____. Here, we think that it works like this T14 > whichever of UCLA, Tex, Vandy is in our region > Local schools
Last edited by Veyron on Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Notor
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby Notor » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:54 pm

darknightbegins wrote:
TipTravHoot wrote:
Notor wrote:Ohio State is better than Case. It has better placement statistics and it's incoming class is far superior to Case. Also, I am pretty sure that $20k from Case has a precarious GPA req. tOSU>Case every time, especially for an instate student.


<---Proof


Case shouldn't even be part of the discussion. I don't know enough about Arizona to comment meaningfully on it, but I imagine OSU reaches into more markets than 'Zona.


Why would you imagine OSU reaches into more markets than Zona? Just because it is ranked a bit higher?

There are 3 major cities in Ohio. How many are there in Arizona?

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Veyron
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby Veyron » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:07 pm

^ Two, but the Phoenix market is larger than any market in Ohio.

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baboon309
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby baboon309 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:55 pm

Whitters wrote:Well if you find it, let me know. I'm still thinking it over :)


I still not find the one that I was talking about. I got something else though.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/map.economy/index.html

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Veyron
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby Veyron » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:30 pm

RVP11 wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:Arizona is pretty messed up right now. :cry: Huge budget problems resulting from a real estate driven economy. In another thread I think someone pointed out that there are only 40 2L summer positions with big firms to be had in the Phoenix area. Figure in the competition from UA, ASU, other regional schools, and T14 kids that want to come out here and you're left with slim pickings.


I was the one who predicted 40 2L summer positions with big firms. I overestimated. It turned out to be more like 25-30 (down from 100+ a few years ago). And you're right to factor in how many people from T14s + schools like Texas/Vanderbilt/Iowa the big firms get (they maybe take up half of these spots?). And factor in that there are ~350 law students combined coming out of UofA/ASU each year. And even the market's leading firms have dropped salary from what used to be PHX market rate of $125k down to $100k or even below. And the market's top firm no-offered half their SA class last year.

Arizona is awesome. But the economy took maybe the biggest hit of any state in the country (see: worst budget deficit given the size of the state), and the legal market shows it.

On the plus side, Phoenix was a total boomtown prior to the economy crash, and when things start booming Phoenix and Arizona will likely be at the forefront again. But I wouldn't bet your lucky stars, or your law school tuition if you're paying OOS, on this happening before you interview as a 2L.



All of this info is wrong, market in AZ according to NALP forms remains at 115-125 + bonus. 1/2 of SA classes are not filled by T-14 ers. This guy just doesn't know whereov he speaks.

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baboon309
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby baboon309 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:51 pm

Whitters wrote:Well if you find it, let me know. I'm still thinking it over :)



Woohoo! I found it

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2 ... phic_N.htm

Forecast from Moody's economy.com

spondee
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby spondee » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:56 pm

RVP11 wrote:
spondee wrote:
Whitters wrote:I prefer city life to suburbia.


Cities in Arizona are really just lots of suburbs in a row.


This is why you live in the city (Phoenix).


Haha, that's what I mean. There's no city life in Phoenix! Just lots of suburbs with occasional Main Streets/outdoor malls like Tempe's Mill Ave.

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Veyron
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby Veyron » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:59 pm

^ Have you ever even been to Phoenix? Tempe and (perhaps more importantly for a budding lawyer) Scottsdale are absolutely amazing.

spondee
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby spondee » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:04 pm

Veyron wrote:^ Have you ever even been to Phoenix? Tempe and (perhaps more importantly for a budding lawyer) Scottsdale are absolutely amazing.


Grew up there - lived in Phoenix for 22 years. I'm not saying it's a bad place, but as for "city life" versus suburbia, I think the whole Phoenix metro is squarely in the suburbia category.

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Veyron
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby Veyron » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:09 pm

spondee wrote:
Veyron wrote:^ Have you ever even been to Phoenix? Tempe and (perhaps more importantly for a budding lawyer) Scottsdale are absolutely amazing.


Grew up there - lived in Phoenix for 22 years. I'm not saying it's a bad place, but as for "city life" versus suburbia, I think the whole Phoenix metro is squarely in the suburbia category.


Depends. A good test is if you consider LA to be suburbia or a city. Whatever you class it, you will probably class Phoenix the same.

spondee
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby spondee » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:24 pm

Veyron wrote:
spondee wrote:
Veyron wrote:^ Have you ever even been to Phoenix? Tempe and (perhaps more importantly for a budding lawyer) Scottsdale are absolutely amazing.


Grew up there - lived in Phoenix for 22 years. I'm not saying it's a bad place, but as for "city life" versus suburbia, I think the whole Phoenix metro is squarely in the suburbia category.


Depends. A good test is if you consider LA to be suburbia or a city. Whatever you class it, you will probably class Phoenix the same.


Yeah, you're right - definitely depends on definitions.

Phoenix is clearly a city, but I think 'city life' requires a certain urban density that Phoenix lacks. While most of LA is suburbia, much of the central parts are denser - you could easily live an enjoyable and varied lifestyle for weeks at a time without a car, for example. Phoenix and LA have a lot in common but that sort of urbanized, city core is something they do not share.

For example, here's the densest incorporated areas of the U.S. There are a number of LA neighborhoods listed, but nothing from Phoenix.

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RVP11
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??

Postby RVP11 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:34 pm

Veyron wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:Arizona is pretty messed up right now. :cry: Huge budget problems resulting from a real estate driven economy. In another thread I think someone pointed out that there are only 40 2L summer positions with big firms to be had in the Phoenix area. Figure in the competition from UA, ASU, other regional schools, and T14 kids that want to come out here and you're left with slim pickings.


I was the one who predicted 40 2L summer positions with big firms. I overestimated. It turned out to be more like 25-30 (down from 100+ a few years ago). And you're right to factor in how many people from T14s + schools like Texas/Vanderbilt/Iowa the big firms get (they maybe take up half of these spots?). And factor in that there are ~350 law students combined coming out of UofA/ASU each year. And even the market's leading firms have dropped salary from what used to be PHX market rate of $125k down to $100k or even below. And the market's top firm no-offered half their SA class last year.

Arizona is awesome. But the economy took maybe the biggest hit of any state in the country (see: worst budget deficit given the size of the state), and the legal market shows it.

On the plus side, Phoenix was a total boomtown prior to the economy crash, and when things start booming Phoenix and Arizona will likely be at the forefront again. But I wouldn't bet your lucky stars, or your law school tuition if you're paying OOS, on this happening before you interview as a 2L.



All of this info is wrong, market in AZ according to NALP forms remains at 115-125 + bonus. 1/2 of SA classes are not filled by T-14 ers. This guy just doesn't know whereov he speaks.


A) "This guy?" I'm the one who's given you a lot of info on AZ firms. PM me if you want to know who I am.

B) I never said 1/2 of SA classes are filled by T14ers. I estimated that up to 1/2 of SA slots are filled by T14s + Texas/Vanderbilt/Iowa. Oh, and I forgot BYU. From old class profiles I've seen, that might be a slight overestimation, but it's definitely not a huge one. It supports the proposition that you NEED Law Review grades (or better) from UofA/ASU to have a shot. I was told by one former hiring partner that his firm would only interview the top few people from each school.

C) Here's some leading PHX firm salaries:

Snell & Wilmer - 110k (formerly paying 125k) and paying their SAs 1700/week
Lewis & Roca - 110k (formerly paying 125k)
Osborn Maledon - 105k
Fennemore Craig - 115k with an asterisk
Ryley Carlock - heard they were paying 90k now but haven't confirmed it

Yeah I'd say that's a big change from the days of "Phoenix to 145k." Firms had to cut somewhere and first year associate salaries was probably not a bad place to start. And I think we both know that 110k =/= living in furs and jewels in Phoenix, even if you live way out in the suburbs.




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