tOSU, U of AZ, or Case?? Forum
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
Well if you find it, let me know. I'm still thinking it over
- TTH
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
<---ProofNotor wrote:Ohio State is better than Case. It has better placement statistics and it's incoming class is far superior to Case. Also, I am pretty sure that $20k from Case has a precarious GPA req. tOSU>Case every time, especially for an instate student.
Case shouldn't even be part of the discussion. I don't know enough about Arizona to comment meaningfully on it, but I imagine OSU reaches into more markets than 'Zona.
- darknightbegins
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
Why would you imagine OSU reaches into more markets than Zona? Just because it is ranked a bit higher?TipTravHoot wrote:<---ProofNotor wrote:Ohio State is better than Case. It has better placement statistics and it's incoming class is far superior to Case. Also, I am pretty sure that $20k from Case has a precarious GPA req. tOSU>Case every time, especially for an instate student.
Case shouldn't even be part of the discussion. I don't know enough about Arizona to comment meaningfully on it, but I imagine OSU reaches into more markets than 'Zona.
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
Cities in Arizona are really just lots of suburbs in a row.Whitters wrote:I prefer city life to suburbia.
- TTH
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
Nope. Without probing in depth, it just seems there are more markets with more firms in Ohio and the cities surrounding Ohio than Arizona. Sure, Arizona is close-ish to LA, but does an Arizona JD get you very far there? I'm not asking rhetorically, but it doesn't seem to me that it does. I looked briefly at alreadybored and there were more firm offices listed in Ohio than Arizona. Plus, OSU has some reach into other midwestern markets.darknightbegins wrote:Why would you imagine OSU reaches into more markets than Zona? Just because it is ranked a bit higher?TipTravHoot wrote:<---ProofNotor wrote:Ohio State is better than Case. It has better placement statistics and it's incoming class is far superior to Case. Also, I am pretty sure that $20k from Case has a precarious GPA req. tOSU>Case every time, especially for an instate student.
Case shouldn't even be part of the discussion. I don't know enough about Arizona to comment meaningfully on it, but I imagine OSU reaches into more markets than 'Zona.
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- darknightbegins
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
Fair enough. Phoenix obviously is a major market and larger than Columbus. Ohio has some reach into Chicago, or so I've heard, but I have no idea if it is basically as good a reach as Zona has reach to LA. I guess there would be bigger markets overall in the midwest. Other than Phoenix the major markets in the near Zona would be Albq, Vegas maybe Denver.TipTravHoot wrote:Nope. Without probing in depth, it just seems there are more markets with more firms in Ohio and the cities surrounding Ohio than Arizona. Sure, Arizona is close-ish to LA, but does an Arizona JD get you very far there? I'm not asking rhetorically, but it doesn't seem to me that it does. I looked briefly at alreadybored and there were more firm offices listed in Ohio than Arizona. Plus, OSU has some reach into other midwestern markets.darknightbegins wrote:Why would you imagine OSU reaches into more markets than Zona? Just because it is ranked a bit higher?TipTravHoot wrote:<---ProofNotor wrote:Ohio State is better than Case. It has better placement statistics and it's incoming class is far superior to Case. Also, I am pretty sure that $20k from Case has a precarious GPA req. tOSU>Case every time, especially for an instate student.
Case shouldn't even be part of the discussion. I don't know enough about Arizona to comment meaningfully on it, but I imagine OSU reaches into more markets than 'Zona.
I don't have a problem with you giving OSU a slight edge. I think the weather at Zona more than makes up for any disadvantage, but that is just me.
- BigA
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
what is the t in tOSU for?
- PDaddy
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
All of these schools are great, but your situation, with Wisconsin thrown in, is a bit different. Wisconsin is arguably the best school of those mentioned between OP's and your posts. What kind of money are you looking at? If you chose tOSU, nobody would call you crazy, though Wisconsin and Arizona are also great choices. You cannot lose no matter which one you pick.bleu_dog wrote:I face a similar decision, although the schools I'm considering are tOSU, U of Arizona, and U of Wisconsin. I am very interested in others' opinions as to which one they would choose and why. I hope you don't mind my jumping onto your thread.
Last edited by PDaddy on Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
- PDaddy
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
The school is called "The Ohio State University"BigA wrote:what is the t in tOSU for?
- BigA
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
haha I figured that. I just had to know if people outside of sports actually said thatPDaddy wrote:The school is called "The Ohio State University"BigA wrote:what is the t in tOSU for?
- PDaddy
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
LOL. And I just had to see if you really didn't know.BigA wrote:haha I figured that. I just had to know if people outside of sports actually said thatPDaddy wrote:The school is called "The Ohio State University"BigA wrote:what is the t in tOSU for?
- RVP11
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
I was the one who predicted 40 2L summer positions with big firms. I overestimated. It turned out to be more like 25-30 (down from 100+ a few years ago). And you're right to factor in how many people from T14s + schools like Texas/Vanderbilt/Iowa the big firms get (they maybe take up half of these spots?). And factor in that there are ~350 law students combined coming out of UofA/ASU each year. And even the market's leading firms have dropped salary from what used to be PHX market rate of $125k down to $100k or even below. And the market's top firm no-offered half their SA class last year.sundevil77 wrote:Arizona is pretty messed up right now. Huge budget problems resulting from a real estate driven economy. In another thread I think someone pointed out that there are only 40 2L summer positions with big firms to be had in the Phoenix area. Figure in the competition from UA, ASU, other regional schools, and T14 kids that want to come out here and you're left with slim pickings.
Arizona is awesome. But the economy took maybe the biggest hit of any state in the country (see: worst budget deficit given the size of the state), and the legal market shows it.
On the plus side, Phoenix was a total boomtown prior to the economy crash, and when things start booming Phoenix and Arizona will likely be at the forefront again. But I wouldn't bet your lucky stars, or your law school tuition if you're paying OOS, on this happening before you interview as a 2L.
- RVP11
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
This is why you live in the city (Phoenix).spondee wrote:Cities in Arizona are really just lots of suburbs in a row.Whitters wrote:I prefer city life to suburbia.
Suburbs in Arizona are like suburbs everywhere. They just have a whole lot more of em, and they're huge.
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- Veyron
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
When will people ever learn ---> you pick schools outside of the top 20 based purely on the location you want to practice. You went to W and M, thats nice, welcome to ___(pick location)_____. Here, we think that it works like this T14 > whichever of UCLA, Tex, Vandy is in our region > Local schools
Last edited by Veyron on Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Notor
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
There are 3 major cities in Ohio. How many are there in Arizona?darknightbegins wrote:Why would you imagine OSU reaches into more markets than Zona? Just because it is ranked a bit higher?TipTravHoot wrote:<---ProofNotor wrote:Ohio State is better than Case. It has better placement statistics and it's incoming class is far superior to Case. Also, I am pretty sure that $20k from Case has a precarious GPA req. tOSU>Case every time, especially for an instate student.
Case shouldn't even be part of the discussion. I don't know enough about Arizona to comment meaningfully on it, but I imagine OSU reaches into more markets than 'Zona.
- Veyron
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
^ Two, but the Phoenix market is larger than any market in Ohio.
- baboon309
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
I still not find the one that I was talking about. I got something else though.Whitters wrote:Well if you find it, let me know. I'm still thinking it over
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/map.economy/index.html
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- Veyron
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
RVP11 wrote:I was the one who predicted 40 2L summer positions with big firms. I overestimated. It turned out to be more like 25-30 (down from 100+ a few years ago). And you're right to factor in how many people from T14s + schools like Texas/Vanderbilt/Iowa the big firms get (they maybe take up half of these spots?). And factor in that there are ~350 law students combined coming out of UofA/ASU each year. And even the market's leading firms have dropped salary from what used to be PHX market rate of $125k down to $100k or even below. And the market's top firm no-offered half their SA class last year.sundevil77 wrote:Arizona is pretty messed up right now. Huge budget problems resulting from a real estate driven economy. In another thread I think someone pointed out that there are only 40 2L summer positions with big firms to be had in the Phoenix area. Figure in the competition from UA, ASU, other regional schools, and T14 kids that want to come out here and you're left with slim pickings.
Arizona is awesome. But the economy took maybe the biggest hit of any state in the country (see: worst budget deficit given the size of the state), and the legal market shows it.
On the plus side, Phoenix was a total boomtown prior to the economy crash, and when things start booming Phoenix and Arizona will likely be at the forefront again. But I wouldn't bet your lucky stars, or your law school tuition if you're paying OOS, on this happening before you interview as a 2L.
All of this info is wrong, market in AZ according to NALP forms remains at 115-125 + bonus. 1/2 of SA classes are not filled by T-14 ers. This guy just doesn't know whereov he speaks.
- baboon309
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
Whitters wrote:Well if you find it, let me know. I'm still thinking it over
Woohoo! I found it
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2 ... phic_N.htm
Forecast from Moody's economy.com
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
Haha, that's what I mean. There's no city life in Phoenix! Just lots of suburbs with occasional Main Streets/outdoor malls like Tempe's Mill Ave.RVP11 wrote:This is why you live in the city (Phoenix).spondee wrote:Cities in Arizona are really just lots of suburbs in a row.Whitters wrote:I prefer city life to suburbia.
- Veyron
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
^ Have you ever even been to Phoenix? Tempe and (perhaps more importantly for a budding lawyer) Scottsdale are absolutely amazing.
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
Grew up there - lived in Phoenix for 22 years. I'm not saying it's a bad place, but as for "city life" versus suburbia, I think the whole Phoenix metro is squarely in the suburbia category.Veyron wrote:^ Have you ever even been to Phoenix? Tempe and (perhaps more importantly for a budding lawyer) Scottsdale are absolutely amazing.
- Veyron
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
Depends. A good test is if you consider LA to be suburbia or a city. Whatever you class it, you will probably class Phoenix the same.spondee wrote:Grew up there - lived in Phoenix for 22 years. I'm not saying it's a bad place, but as for "city life" versus suburbia, I think the whole Phoenix metro is squarely in the suburbia category.Veyron wrote:^ Have you ever even been to Phoenix? Tempe and (perhaps more importantly for a budding lawyer) Scottsdale are absolutely amazing.
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
Yeah, you're right - definitely depends on definitions.Veyron wrote:Depends. A good test is if you consider LA to be suburbia or a city. Whatever you class it, you will probably class Phoenix the same.spondee wrote:Grew up there - lived in Phoenix for 22 years. I'm not saying it's a bad place, but as for "city life" versus suburbia, I think the whole Phoenix metro is squarely in the suburbia category.Veyron wrote:^ Have you ever even been to Phoenix? Tempe and (perhaps more importantly for a budding lawyer) Scottsdale are absolutely amazing.
Phoenix is clearly a city, but I think 'city life' requires a certain urban density that Phoenix lacks. While most of LA is suburbia, much of the central parts are denser - you could easily live an enjoyable and varied lifestyle for weeks at a time without a car, for example. Phoenix and LA have a lot in common but that sort of urbanized, city core is something they do not share.
For example, here's the densest incorporated areas of the U.S. There are a number of LA neighborhoods listed, but nothing from Phoenix.
- RVP11
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Re: tOSU, U of AZ, or Case??
A) "This guy?" I'm the one who's given you a lot of info on AZ firms. PM me if you want to know who I am.Veyron wrote:RVP11 wrote:I was the one who predicted 40 2L summer positions with big firms. I overestimated. It turned out to be more like 25-30 (down from 100+ a few years ago). And you're right to factor in how many people from T14s + schools like Texas/Vanderbilt/Iowa the big firms get (they maybe take up half of these spots?). And factor in that there are ~350 law students combined coming out of UofA/ASU each year. And even the market's leading firms have dropped salary from what used to be PHX market rate of $125k down to $100k or even below. And the market's top firm no-offered half their SA class last year.sundevil77 wrote:Arizona is pretty messed up right now. Huge budget problems resulting from a real estate driven economy. In another thread I think someone pointed out that there are only 40 2L summer positions with big firms to be had in the Phoenix area. Figure in the competition from UA, ASU, other regional schools, and T14 kids that want to come out here and you're left with slim pickings.
Arizona is awesome. But the economy took maybe the biggest hit of any state in the country (see: worst budget deficit given the size of the state), and the legal market shows it.
On the plus side, Phoenix was a total boomtown prior to the economy crash, and when things start booming Phoenix and Arizona will likely be at the forefront again. But I wouldn't bet your lucky stars, or your law school tuition if you're paying OOS, on this happening before you interview as a 2L.
All of this info is wrong, market in AZ according to NALP forms remains at 115-125 + bonus. 1/2 of SA classes are not filled by T-14 ers. This guy just doesn't know whereov he speaks.
B) I never said 1/2 of SA classes are filled by T14ers. I estimated that up to 1/2 of SA slots are filled by T14s + Texas/Vanderbilt/Iowa. Oh, and I forgot BYU. From old class profiles I've seen, that might be a slight overestimation, but it's definitely not a huge one. It supports the proposition that you NEED Law Review grades (or better) from UofA/ASU to have a shot. I was told by one former hiring partner that his firm would only interview the top few people from each school.
C) Here's some leading PHX firm salaries:
Snell & Wilmer - 110k (formerly paying 125k) and paying their SAs 1700/week
Lewis & Roca - 110k (formerly paying 125k)
Osborn Maledon - 105k
Fennemore Craig - 115k with an asterisk
Ryley Carlock - heard they were paying 90k now but haven't confirmed it
Yeah I'd say that's a big change from the days of "Phoenix to 145k." Firms had to cut somewhere and first year associate salaries was probably not a bad place to start. And I think we both know that 110k =/= living in furs and jewels in Phoenix, even if you live way out in the suburbs.
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