9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

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Please help!

NYU
37
60%
Columbia
25
40%
 
Total votes: 62

nice&slow
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9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby nice&slow » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:08 pm

Hi everyone, long time reader de-lurking because I have no idea what to do.

I was all set to go to NYU and put in my deposit this Friday when I find out yesterday afternoon that I was accepted by Columbia. I really hadn't thought that they'd let me in, and it totally threw me. Basically I'm looking for the TLS community to tell me to go to NYU.

A little background first. I'm going to law school straight from undergrad, but for the past two years I've been putting in significant part-time hours (20-30 hr/week) at a boutique litigation firm. There really aren't any other schools that I'm considering (Harvard is a distant, distant possibility if they ever contact me), and even before I applied to schools Columbia and NYU alternated as my top choice.

I know that NYU is probably better suited to my interests. I want to go into criminal prosecution, and so the emphasis on public service at NYU, as well as their great LRAP and strong crim law program really interest me. They've also given me a pretty decent scholarship (about 1/3 tuition).

However, I just can't get Columbia out of my mind. I'm really attracted it to it just because I would get to tell people that I go to Columbia Law, but they've also got a cool JD/LLM program. I know that LLMs are pointless, but this is a 3 year joint degree program where you spend the 3rd year in London, so I'm pretty much looking it as a study abroad opportunity which gets me out of the pointlessness that is 3L with a bonus of a 2nd degree for my resume in the same time.

I went to the most recent NYU ASW and really liked the school and the people. I still haven't been to Columbia, and I'm probably going to do a day trip tomorrow (NYC is only a 4 hour bus from me) but I don't know how much insight that's going to give me.

Please help me choose, and if you could perhaps give your reasoning that would be great. TLS has been a great resource for me throughout this whole law school admissions process, and I trust (most) of the regular posters to help me out.

Thanks so much!!

singingvontrapp
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby singingvontrapp » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:10 pm

NYU

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chicoalto0649
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby chicoalto0649 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:15 pm

Fordham.

Better location.

/thread

nice&slow
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby nice&slow » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:26 pm

chicoalto0649 wrote:Fordham.

Better location.

/thread


If they had given me more money it might have been an option :wink:

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gossipgirl
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby gossipgirl » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:33 pm

As a person choosing Columbia over NYU, I really think that if you're close to 100% about PI, you should definitely do NYU. A career services that is so focused on getting students placed in public interest is one that is going to be very helpful when you seek employment. The difference between the two schools just is not enough to choose Columbia over NYU if you're serious about PI.

imchuckbass58
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby imchuckbass58 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:38 pm

I think you should definitely visit and see what feels better for you (better yet, come to the ASW coming up in April at CLS).

Things to think about:

-I wouldn't put too much emphasis on differences in curriculum. CLS also has a great crim law program (profs include lynch, livingston, liebman and fagan, just to name a few) and similar externship offerings (USAOs in SDNY and EDNY, several DAs offices) and the LRAP is arguable the same if not better. There will be more people interested in public interest at NYU, but many people overstate the effect.

-One thing a lot of people decide on is the location of the two schools. Do you have a preference in that regard?

If you visit and still can't decide, I think the answer is go to NYU in the absence of scholarship money from Columbia though.

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legalease9
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby legalease9 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:40 pm

The scholarship from NYU makes this easy... NYU!!! NYU and Columbia law have near-equal rep, so don't worry about that. If you feel like it though, wait till the deadline comes closer to see if Columbia beats NYU's money offer. Otherwise, NYU. And congrats on your great choices!

lakerfanimal
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby lakerfanimal » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:51 pm

If Columbia is nicer when you visit by say 1/3 tuition at NYU, go there. If not you should stick with NYU.

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:53 pm

lakerfanimal wrote:If Columbia is nicer when you visit by say 1/3 tuition at NYU, go there. If not you should stick with NYU.


nyu > columbia ceteris paribus, in my completely objective opinion.

seriously however, given the scholarship, this one is a bit of a no-brainer. enjoy the village.

nice&slow
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby nice&slow » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:08 pm

Thanks so much for the replies! With regard to location, I'm honestly indifferent. The village is a lot of fun, but I'll have to deal with a sightly higher COL and hipsters, Morningside has great housing, but there's a little less to do up there.

Since I have a scholarship at NYU I have to deposit by Friday and withdraw from all other schools to which I have been accepted, that's why this is so pressing. I'm going to head to NY tomorrow to check out Columbia, but barring a life-changing experience where I completely fall in love with it, I think I'm probably going to go with NYU.

Thanks again for all of your help, and keep the comments coming!!!

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glowhard
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby glowhard » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:50 pm

I definitely know what you mean by “I could tell everyone I went to Columbia Law,” but all my friends in law school/the legal profession say that NYU and Columbia read as nearly identical to people who actually do hiring. Also, I went to a top undergrad school, and I feel like a d-bag sometimes when people ask where I went to school. I just feel like I’m bragging without trying or something. The name thing can cut both ways.

With the money, and the fact that you think it’s better for what you want, I might go to NYU. But visit… they’re really very different-feeling.

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glowhard
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby glowhard » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:51 pm

okay, is there some bug going on?

when i type "l a w s c h o o l" it shows up as lawl skool in the post.

anyone else?

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soullesswonder
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby soullesswonder » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:54 pm

glowhard wrote:okay, is there some bug going on?

when i type "l a w s c h o o l" it shows up as lawl skool in the post.

anyone else?


refer to the April Fool's Day thread - and if you'll notice, Fdham has been magically transcribed as "paradise"

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Kohinoor
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby Kohinoor » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:56 pm

Isn't it NYU for public interest and in all else a tie?

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vanwinkle
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:59 pm

Let me get this straight. You're getting money from NYU, and you want to do PI work when you graduate, and you still can't decide?

Lower total COA at NYU + more PI focus/options at NYU + actual PI interest = NYU FTW. The difference between NYU and Columbia is not so great to justify going to Columbia in your case, especially with the advantages to attending NYU in your particular situation.

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GeePee
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby GeePee » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:00 pm

NYU is credited here. With a money difference, it's a no brainer. If it were even money, I'd just say to go with your gut. You seem to want to stay in NYC, so you can't really go wrong with either.

As a side note you should definitely start working in PI/gov't internship positions rather than at a private boutique. Alongside with school prestige/grades, a track record that shows commitment to public interest is the most important tool in getting yourself PI jobs. You're in NYC, so it should be easy to do work for a PI clinic/organization during the school year, but definitely make sure you start getting your PI cred up if you're serious about a career in public interest.

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Series70
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby Series70 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:35 pm

So how did your visit to CLS go? I'm actually in the same position, deciding between the two schools and wanting to go into criminal prosecution (although neither NYU or CLS has offered me money yet). I started a thread on this topic, but you've probably seen it already:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=105942

Anyway, since NYU only gives you until Friday to decide, I would 1)try to see if you can get an extension; 2)contact CLS ASAP and see if they'll match the offer. I'm actually leaning CLS, personally, for several reasons, but it's worth considering that they have in-house pro-bono opportunities with the Manhattan and Queens DA offices. NYU does not.

As I see it, CLS's pro-bono positions give you a leg up for getting that coveted Manhattan DA 2L internship and then landing a job there after graduation. As for the AUSA positions, NYU offers a clinic in civil litigation, but otherwise CLS's externship mirrors NYU's prosecution clinics at SDNY and EDNY.

Also, congratulations, and, regardless of your choice, it might be a good idea to stay in touch since we'll both be in NYC with similar career goals in mind (and minorities among the corporate-types at our respective schools, whichever they may be).

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Veyron
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Columbia thread

Postby Veyron » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:39 pm

nice&slow wrote:Hi everyone, long time reader de-lurking because I have no idea what to do.

I was all set to go to NYU and put in my deposit this Friday when I find out yesterday afternoon that I was accepted by Columbia. I really hadn't thought that they'd let me in, and it totally threw me. Basically I'm looking for the lishi community to tell me to go to NYU.

A little background first. I'm going to lawl skool straight from undergrad, but for the past two years I've been putting in significant part-time hours (20-30 hr/week) at a boutique litigation firm. There really aren't any other schools that I'm considering (Not YLS is a distant, distant possibility if they ever contact me), and even before I applied to schools Columbia and NYU alternated as my top choice.

I know that NYU is probably better suited to my interests. I want to go into criminal prosecution, and so the emphasis on public service at NYU, as well as their great LRAP and strong crim law program really interest me. They've also given me a pretty decent scholarship (about 1/3 tuition).

However, I just can't get Columbia out of my mind. I'm really attracted it to it just because I would get to tell people that I go to Columbia Law, but they've also got a cool JD/LLM program. I know that LLMs are pointless, but this is a 3 year joint degree program where you spend the 3rd year in London, so I'm pretty much looking it as a study abroad opportunity which gets me out of the pointlessness that is 3L with a bonus of a 2nd degree for my resume in the same time.

I went to the most recent NYU ASW and really liked the school and the people. I still haven't been to Columbia, and I'm probably going to do a day trip tomorrow (NYC is only a 4 hour bus from me) but I don't know how much insight that's going to give me.

Please help me choose, and if you could perhaps give your reasoning that would be great. lishi has been a great resource for me throughout this whole lawl skool admissions process, and I trust (most) of the regular posters to help me out.

Thanks so much!!


Idiot: NYU has the better criminal law program – by far. Arguably the best in the country. I mean do you actually want to be a lawyer or just go to school so you can hang out in London and tell people that you went to Columbia?

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TTTennis
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Colombia thread

Postby TTTennis » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:45 pm

Veyron wrote:
nice&slow wrote:Hi everyone, long time reader de-lurking because I have no idea what to do.

I was all set to go to NYU and put in my deposit this Friday when I find out yesterday afternoon that I was accepted by Colombia. I really hadn't thought that they'd let me in, and it totally threw me. Basically I'm looking for the lishi community to tell me to go to NYU.

A little background first. I'm going to lawl skool straight from undergrad, but for the past two years I've been putting in significant part-time hours (20-30 hr/week) at a boutique litigation firm. There really aren't any other schools that I'm considering (Not YLS is a distant, distant possibility if they ever contact me), and even before I applied to schools Colombia and NYU alternated as my top choice.

I know that NYU is probably better suited to my interests. I want to go into criminal prosecution, and so the emphasis on public service at NYU, as well as their great LRAP and strong crim law program really interest me. They've also given me a pretty decent scholarship (about 1/3 tuition).

However, I just can't get Colombia out of my mind. I'm really attracted it to it just because I would get to tell people that I go to Colombia Law, but they've also got a cool JD/LLM program. I know that LLMs are pointless, but this is a 3 year joint degree program where you spend the 3rd year in London, so I'm pretty much looking it as a study abroad opportunity which gets me out of the pointlessness that is 3L with a bonus of a 2nd degree for my resume in the same time.

I went to the most recent NYU ASW and really liked the school and the people. I still haven't been to Colombia, and I'm probably going to do a day trip tomorrow (NYC is only a 4 hour bus from me) but I don't know how much insight that's going to give me.

Please help me choose, and if you could perhaps give your reasoning that would be great. lishi has been a great resource for me throughout this whole lawl skool admissions process, and I trust (most) of the regular posters to help me out.

Thanks so much!!


Idiot: NYU has the better criminal law program – by far. Arguably the best in the country. I mean do you actually want to be a lawyer or just go to school so you can hang out in London and tell people that you went to Colombia?


I'm guessing the OP already knew that..."idiot" was a little unnecessary.

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Series70
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Colombia thread

Postby Series70 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:27 pm

Veyron wrote:Idiot: NYU has the better criminal law program – by far. Arguably the best in the country. I mean do you actually want to be a lawyer or just go to school so you can hang out in London and tell people that you went to Colombia?


Other posters on TLS have made a similar claim; is there someplace that ranks criminal law programs? And why is NYU's better? Because of faculty (like Jacobs)?

Honestly, do you really think the Manhattan DA's office would take an NYU candidate over a CLS one because NYU has a higher ranked criminal law program? I have a hunch relevant experience and overall attitude would be more important, but I could be wrong.

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chris0805
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Colombia thread

Postby chris0805 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:56 pm

Idiot: NYU has the better criminal law program – by far. Arguably the best in the country. I mean do you actually want to be a lawyer or just go to school so you can hang out in London and tell people that you went to Colombia?


A few things:

1. Don't go to a school because it has a "good criminal law program." Every school in the top ten can offer good classes in criminal law, and no school in the country can teach you how to actually practice criminal law. The important thing is the externship/internship/clinic opportunities, which will be roughly the same at each school. As far as I know, NYU has only one program that Columbia doesn't have an equivalent of, which is the Bryan Stevenson Death Penalty clinic where you go work down south for a semester, but (1) that doesn't seem relevant to the OP interests and (2) I have heard that it's very competitive to get. Furthermore, both schools will give you great access to DA and PDs offices all over the city.

2. VISIT! NYU and CLS are almost identical on paper, but they have a different feel. That feel can also depend on the individual student and what perspective he/she brings so it's important to see it for yourself. After visiting, students feel a lot more comfortable making the choice.

3. Don't overstate the differences. Something like 78 % of NYU students will go to a big law firm this year and about 82 % of CLS students will do the same. Don't think that CLS is actually doing a significantly better job at getting those gigs and, likewise, don't believe the hype that NYU is a 'public interest' school whereas CLS is a corporate heavy school.

4. Can people stop writing ColOmbia when they mean ColUmbia. I know that's picky, but it makes me laugh and then it distracts me.

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rupert.pupkin
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Colombia thread

Postby rupert.pupkin » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:07 am

chris0805 wrote:4. Can people stop writing ColOmbia when they mean Colombia. I know that's picky, but it makes me laugh and then it distracts me.


april fools day filter big boy

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vanwinkle
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Colombia thread

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:12 am

Series70 wrote:Honestly, do you really think the Manhattan DA's office would take an NYU candidate over a CLS one because NYU has a higher ranked criminal law program? I have a hunch relevant experience and overall attitude would be more important, but I could be wrong.

The Manhattan DA's office and most PI places will, when faced with a CLS grad and an NYU grad, focus on grades and experience as the way to tell them apart. CLS and NYU are not so apart that one or the other will really stand out anywhere. This isn't about ranking of schools or programs.

That said, NYU's fame in PI and criminal law comes in part from its clinics, which will give you easier access to build up that experience. NYU has a Federal Defender Clinic, a Juvenile Defender Clinic, a Criminal Appellate Defender Clinic, a Capital Defender Clinic, and two Federal Prosecution Clinics, one for SDNY and one for EDNY. That's an amazingly large number of clinics to have focused on criminal law practice and that give you direct experience in prosecution or defense. In contrast, I can't see a single CLS clinic that actually puts you into a prosecutor or PD's office.

Given that the NYU student is going to have opportunities to build real-world experience like that during the school year, and the CLS student isn't, that tips things pretty strongly in favor of the NYU grad (unless the CLS grad goes out of his way to build a criminal law resume all on his own without his school's help).

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chris0805
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Colombia thread

Postby chris0805 » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:30 am

vanwinkle wrote:
Series70 wrote:Honestly, do you really think the Manhattan DA's office would take an NYU candidate over a CLS one because NYU has a higher ranked criminal law program? I have a hunch relevant experience and overall attitude would be more important, but I could be wrong.

The Manhattan DA's office and most PI places will, when faced with a CLS grad and an NYU grad, focus on grades and experience as the way to tell them apart. CLS and NYU are not so apart that one or the other will really stand out anywhere. This isn't about ranking of schools or programs.

That said, NYU's fame in PI and criminal law comes in part from its clinics, which will give you easier access to build up that experience. NYU has a Federal Defender Clinic, a Juvenile Defender Clinic, a Criminal Appellate Defender Clinic, a Capital Defender Clinic, and two Federal Prosecution Clinics, one for SDNY and one for EDNY. That's an amazingly large number of clinics to have focused on criminal law practice and that give you direct experience in prosecution or defense. In contrast, I can't see a single CLS clinic that actually puts you into a prosecutor or PD's office.

Given that the NYU student is going to have opportunities to build real-world experience like that during the school year, and the CLS student isn't, that tips things pretty strongly in favor of the NYU grad (unless the CLS grad goes out of his way to build a criminal law resume all on his own without his school's help).


Columbia has clinics (though they call them externships, they're the same thing) at two US Attys. office, the queen's county DA, Neighborhood Defender Service, and the Center for Appellate Litigation (Indigent Defense appeals). CLS also has a strong relationship with Bronx Defenders and I know more than few students who have interned there.

You can see the list of externships for this semester and the upcoming semester

Here:

http://www.law.columbia.edu/programs/social-justice/externships/S10

and

Here:

http://www.law.columbia.edu/programs/social-justice/externships/F10



P.S. Oops on the April Fool's... someone's a little slow on the uptake :oops:
Last edited by chris0805 on Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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vanwinkle
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Re: 9 billionth NYU v Colombia thread

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:31 am

chris0805 wrote:Colombia has clinics (though they call them externships, they're the same thing) at two US Attys. office, the queen's county DA, Neighborhood Defender Service, and the Center for Appellate Litigation (Indigent Defense appeals). CLS also has a strong relationship with Bronx Defenders and I know more than few students who have interned there.

That's odd. Why isn't that under Columbia Law's clinics page?




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