Lots of ?s regarding ford.ham v. wash u,during the recession

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1987dc2010
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Lots of ?s regarding ford.ham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby 1987dc2010 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:59 pm

Ford.ham is changing to "Paradise" for some reason that I cannot detect.

I am trying to work in BigLaw NYC (I want that Big Law dough--plus visual art, fashion, and music are all very important to me [obviously NY is the nation's capital for all of those areas]). I have been accepted to two schools so far: Ford.ham and Wash U St. Louis.

It seems that going to Ford.ham would be a no-brainer, since Ford.ham places very well in NYC's top firms. However, Wash U offered me a scholarship of approximately 100k.

So I wonder:
1) When you are making that BigLaw $, does 105k still seem like a substantial amount? Would the 105k still seem like a game-changer?

2) How important do you think establishing connections, while in law school, with the NYC legal community is? Put differently, do Ford.ham students have a tremendous leg up on many students that do not go to school in NY, because Ford.ham students have been able to network with their potential colleagues-to-be?

3) How hard is the legal market hurting right now? I expect it to recover; however, I don't expect it to recover by the time I am looking for employment for the summer that follows my 1L year. Assuming that it does not recover by that time, will the advantage of studying in new york be greatly diminished?

4) 97% of Ford.ham Law students say they want to work in NYC. Do you think that having such an alumni network around me will make a great difference in working my way up the ladder of a top firm?

5) Ford.ham or Wash U?


Thanks in advance!
Last edited by 1987dc2010 on Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:01 pm

Chances are you will not be making biglaw money straight out of LS from either school.

rando
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby rando » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:06 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Chances are you will not be making biglaw money straight out of LS from either school.


credited. re-evaluate the mindset

1987dc2010
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby 1987dc2010 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:19 pm

rando wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Chances are you will not be making biglaw money straight out of LS from either school.


credited. re-evaluate the mindset


Thanks for the advice. Can you two expand a little? Why do hold that position? Would you say the same thing if the schools in question were gtown, uva, nwstrn, & duke. the reason I ask is because fordham places quite well according to brian leiter. http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

also according to the fordham dean: "As members of the legal profession, Fordham graduates are highly valued: Fordham has more lawyers at the nation's 25 most successful law firms than all but six schools."
http://law.fordham.edu/about-fordham/2363.htm

operasoprano, holler atcha boi

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:21 pm

I realize these are not in order, but to address your questions:

1) WUSTL gave you a very nice scholarship. You can negotiate for money from Fordham, though our endowment is modest, and my school just does not have as much to give.

2) We benefit a ton from being in NYC. I used to work in fashion, and my UG was also in NYC. I worked and interned in UG, and then took a legal internship during the school year (at a nonprofit, since this is of great personal interest to me) while at Fordham. If my school had not been in an urban area, it would have been much harder to do this.

3) Fordham has a group called Couture Counselor that routinely sponsors panels featuring legal professionals working in the fashion industry. It's a really cool group, and I don't know that any other school has its equivalent.

4) You need to be thinking about the summer that follows your 2L year, which is when you will get an SA job, if biglaw is what you want. ITE both schools have taken a hit, though consensus is that your class will have it a bit better than 2010 and 2011 did at OCI. Things were rough for those not near the top of the class. In a traditional year, Fordham places around 1/3 of the class into biglaw, and WUSTL places almost 30%. (These numbers are from 2005, before the bubble, and well before the crash.) The trouble is that it's impossible to predict how either school will place in your year.

You got a lot of money from WUSTL, but you would essentially be trading your scholarship for QoL and networking time. I don't know the percentage of WUSTL students who get NYC biglaw, but you need to find this out before you do anything else. If the money were even, or even close, Fordham would be a no-brainer. I love my school, and living and working in NYC are so much a part of my lifestyle at present that I would be inclined to give up even a scholarship like that, but this is a personal choice, and I really think you need to contact the school to talk about your financial situation and your career goals.

To address Helm's comment, even during the boom, neither school was anything like a biglaw lock. You will need to get the grades if you want to make this happen, but it is far from impossible.

Also, I am a girl FTR.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:24 pm

1987dc2010 wrote:
rando wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Chances are you will not be making biglaw money straight out of LS from either school.


credited. re-evaluate the mindset


Thanks for the advice. Can you two expand a little? Why do hold that position? Would you say the same thing if the schools in question were gtown, uva, nwstrn, & duke. the reason I ask is because fordham places quite well according to brian leiter. http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

also according to the fordham dean: "As members of the legal profession, Fordham graduates are highly valued: Fordham has more lawyers at the nation's 25 most successful law firms than all but six schools."
http://law.fordham.edu/about-fordham/2363.htm

operasoprano, holler atcha boi


WUSTL had only around a quarter of their students make it into the top 250 firms in the country (i.e. biglaw) and Fordham had less than 30%.

ITE, Fordham is probably more in line with George Washington and the University of Illinois when it comes to biglaw placement.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:26 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:To address Helm's comment, even during the boom, neither school was anything like a biglaw lock. You will need to get the grades if you want to make this happen, but it is far from impossible.


Yeah, I know, and it's far from impossible to get into biglaw from SMU. My biggest problem was OP basically counting on making biglaw money right out of LS.

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soullesswonder
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby soullesswonder » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:28 pm

1987dc2010 wrote:
rando wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Chances are you will not be making biglaw money straight out of LS from either school.


credited. re-evaluate the mindset


Thanks for the advice. Can you two expand a little? Why do hold that position? Would you say the same thing if the schools in question were gtown, uva, nwstrn, & duke. the reason I ask is because fordham places quite well according to brian leiter. http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

also according to the fordham dean: "As members of the legal profession, Fordham graduates are highly valued: Fordham has more lawyers at the nation's 25 most successful law firms than all but six schools."
http://law.fordham.edu/about-fordham/2363.htm

operasoprano, holler atcha boi


Fordham is not anywhere close to those other schools you mentioned. Even at the height of the boom, it only placed about a third of its class into the NLJ 250.

1987dc2010
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby 1987dc2010 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:34 pm

'ey, thanks for the advice guys.

lol ("holler atcha boi" implies that i'm a guy--& one that would benefit from your advice [i especially benefited from the nugget about the summer after 2L year])!

for the record, i'm not trying to work with fashion or arts, I just need girls (and guys for that matter) around me to look very fly or else I will be a tad bit sullen (perhaps my 22 year old mindset is rearing its head [I don't wish to be around sweatpants and flip-flops]). the same goes for art & culture.


again, thanks for advice. i would love some more from any willing participants.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:36 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:To address Helm's comment, even during the boom, neither school was anything like a biglaw lock. You will need to get the grades if you want to make this happen, but it is far from impossible.


Yeah, I know, and it's far from impossible to get into biglaw from SMU. My biggest problem was OP basically counting on making biglaw money right out of LS.


I don't think OP was counting on it (at least I hope not.) I do think the numbers will be a bit better by the time OP does OCI, but current statistics, and information from 2Ls and 3Ls, should be examined carefully. I'm happy with the choice I made, and it remains true that Fordham is the best non-T14 for the NYC market.

1987dc2010
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby 1987dc2010 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:36 pm

soullesswonder wrote:
1987dc2010 wrote:
rando wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Chances are you will not be making biglaw money straight out of LS from either school.


credited. re-evaluate the mindset


Thanks for the advice. Can you two expand a little? Why do hold that position? Would you say the same thing if the schools in question were gtown, uva, nwstrn, & duke. the reason I ask is because fordham places quite well according to brian leiter. http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

also according to the fordham dean: "As members of the legal profession, Fordham graduates are highly valued: Fordham has more lawyers at the nation's 25 most successful law firms than all but six schools."
http://law.fordham.edu/about-fordham/2363.htm

operasoprano, holler atcha boi


Fordham is not anywhere close to those other schools you mentioned. Even at the height of the boom, it only placed about a third of its class into the NLJ 250.



soullesswonder,

how do you reconcile your opinion with the words of the dean? I assume you will say that he is only taking into consideration the top 25 firms, but shouldn't those other schools do better than fordham in that slither of firms?

jnorsky
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby jnorsky » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:45 pm

credited. re-evaluate the mindset[/quote]

Thanks for the advice. Can you two expand a little? Why do hold that position? Would you say the same thing if the schools in question were gtown, uva, nwstrn, & duke. the reason I ask is because fordham places quite well according to brian leiter. http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

also according to the fordham dean: "As members of the legal profession, Fordham graduates are highly valued: Fordham has more lawyers at the nation's 25 most successful law firms than all but six schools."
http://law.fordham.edu/about-fordham/2363.htm

operasoprano, holler atcha boi[/quote]

Fordham is not anywhere close to those other schools you mentioned. Even at the height of the boom, it only placed about a third of its class into the NLJ 250.[/quote]


soullesswonder,

how do you reconcile your opinion with the words of the dean? I assume you will say that he is only taking into consideration the top 25 firms, but shouldn't those other schools do better than fordham in that slither of firms?[/quote]

Fordham does extremely well for a T-30 school with Big law. Many that go to Fordham have connections to NYC, and the top of the class always does well in NYC. UVA, Duke, Nwestern, select other regions as well as NYC, like Chicago, Atlanta, DC, west coast. To compare Fordham to those schools is a foolish way to enter law school.

rando
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby rando » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:02 pm

As mentioned by others, those stats are skewed by the biglaw boom and Fordham's location in NYC. They place in NY elite biglaw because well, that's where the school is located. If anecdotal info is any indication, a 2L at fordham told me he would estimate their biglaw placement for the upcoming summer is closer to 15%. Take it FWIW

When you say you want that 'big law dough' it leads one to believe that you will be unhappy if you don't get it and you are entering school banking on it. That is a bad idea. You probably won't get it.

1987dc2010
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby 1987dc2010 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:15 pm

rando wrote:As mentioned by others, those stats are skewed by the biglaw boom and Fordham's location in NYC. They place in NY elite biglaw because well, that's where the school is located. If anecdotal info is any indication, a 2L at fordham told me he would estimate their biglaw placement for the upcoming summer is closer to 15%. Take it FWIW

When you say you want that 'big law dough' it leads one to believe that you will be unhappy if you don't get it and you are entering school banking on it. That is a bad idea. You probably won't get it.


Thanks for the anecdote and advice, rando. While I don't think I will be unhappy without big law dough, I want it. Like most of you cats, I try to be my own best friend; I say, "1987dc2010, you can do whatever you put your mind to." However, I think you are right: odds are against me.

Thanks again.

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soullesswonder
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby soullesswonder » Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:00 pm

I think other posters have covered this point for me, but if you look at Leiter again you'll see that even though Fordham is listed at 15, there's a significant drop-off in the stats that are adjusted for class size (from .59 to .48). As to the Dean, he's talking about total numbers, when the far more relevant question is "how many of the students that want NYC biglaw get NYC biglaw?" Fordham's relatively large NYC biglaw placement is far less heartening when you know that virtually everyone in your class wants those jobs.

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RVP11
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby RVP11 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:05 pm

If you want to work in NYC BigLaw, Fordham is undoubtedly a better choice than WUSTL. Whether either school is a good choice for someone who wants to work in NYC BigLaw is a different question.

thegrandinquisitor
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby thegrandinquisitor » Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:10 pm

.
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Last edited by thegrandinquisitor on Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

1987dc2010
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby 1987dc2010 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:07 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:If you want to work in NYC BigLaw, Fordham is undoubtedly a better choice than WUSTL. Whether either school is a good choice for someone who wants to work in NYC BigLaw is a different question.


Thanks for the advice. I agree Fordham is the better option, all things being equal. However, the question is WUSTL w/ 105k v. Fordham.

Obviously, you guys don't know my financial situation (i'll be taking out loans) or lifestyle aspirations (i'm trying to own some murakamis, jk), but I am still interested in your answers.



btw, soullesswonder, you make some good points.

1987dc2010
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby 1987dc2010 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:09 pm

making cake, 160k/year, how long you guys think it will take to pay off 210k in law school debt? obviously, your answer will depend on several unmentioned factors, but ballpark estimates would be perfect.

1987dc2010
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby 1987dc2010 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:11 pm

another question: do you guys think the choice between schools (i.e. washu v. fordham) often gets overblown? to expand on the question, if i do very well at either schools, i should be able to write a ticket to a top NYC firm, right?

09042014
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding fordham v. wash u,during the recession

Postby 09042014 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:16 pm

1987dc2010 wrote:making cake, 160k/year, how long you guys think it will take to pay off 210k in law school debt? obviously, your answer will depend on several unmentioned factors, but ballpark estimates would be perfect.


Living in NYC? 5 years if you are crazy about saving. Otherwise about 10.

1987dc2010
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding paradise v. wash u,during the recession

Postby 1987dc2010 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:04 pm

boys and girls,

my account has been hacked. someone changed "ford.ham" to "paradise." originally, i thought i had committed a freudian slip which revealed my desire to be in NYC. But, nope. My account has been hacked. still, i would like to know your opinions on the Wash U +105k v. Ford.ham issue. and on the issue of debt repayment.

09042014
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Re: Lots of ?s regarding paradise v. wash u,during the recession

Postby 09042014 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:06 pm

1987dc2010 wrote:boys and girls,

my account has been hacked. someone changed "ford.ham" to "paradise." originally, i thought i had committed a freudian slip which revealed my desire to be in NYC. But, nope. My account has been hacked. still, i would like to know your opinions on the Wash U +105k v. Ford.ham issue. and on the issue of debt repayment.


Consult a doctor. The rest of us can say Fordham just fine.




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