ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which one would you choose??

Notre Dame w/ 18,000/yr
55
40%
UCI w/ half tuition
54
39%
WUSTL w/ 10,000/yr
30
22%
 
Total votes: 139

ENGINEERD
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ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby ENGINEERD » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:09 am

Throughout the admissions process I have turned to the people of TLS for everything. Now I really need your input...

I eventually plan to practice patent law in California but I am also open to NY. Which one would you choose??? Please explain..

Notre Dame w/ 18,000/yr

UCI w/ half tuition

WUSTL w/ 10,000/yr

*Only condition for all is to remain in good academic standing

ENGINEERD
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby ENGINEERD » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:55 pm

anyone??

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UFMatt
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby UFMatt » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:02 pm

From people I know who have gone into patent law, all of them were able to translate what TLS would regard as regional degrees into nationally portability. For instance, I know of one who went to Ohio St and landed a biglaw NYC IP gig as a 2L. Another went to UF and has a midlaw IP job in the midwest. Another went to UF and works biglaw IP in DC. The caveat is that all 3 are PhDs (Bio).

Conventional wisdom would say UCI (due to market) or WUSTL (due to ranking). I'd recommend choosing based on personal preference and finances. Cost of living for UCI would probably be far higher than either of the other two choices, so half tuition doesn't mean too much. WUSTL will carry national respect, and ND will provide a great alumni network. I'll vote for ND since they're the most flexible in terms of placement, but do what you think feels right.

singingvontrapp
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby singingvontrapp » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:57 pm

UCI seems like a no-brainer. You are getting money from them, you want to work in CA, and the UC, despite its current budget troubles, has always been a reputable institution. People keep saying that ND has some national mystic, but in SoCal it's a midwestern football school.

ENGINEERD
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby ENGINEERD » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:09 pm

Thanks for the input! Although a lot of people claim UCI is the credited response I am not yet convinced. I am sure it will one day be a good law school, T30ish, but who knows where it will be ranked when finally accredited. I think it is very unlikely that it will ever be ranked higher than ND or WUSTL.

As far as WUSTL goes, I loved the school when I visited and the pitch by the career services dean was convincing. Although they claim to be expanding to the west coast, I know their west coast placement is still pretty weak and it is likely that I will be stuck in the midwest or east coast.

Despite the lower ranking than WUSTL, I think (or I am telling myself) that ND places better nationally do to brand name recognition and alumni network. Can anyone make a strong claim for why I should choose WUSTL over ND or vice versa???

ENGINEERD
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby ENGINEERD » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:46 pm

??

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rgucsb
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby rgucsb » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:52 pm

Congrats on your success
I would go with UCI if you are interested in staying in California. But it is difficult turning down ND, the school has ridiculous national prestige. I would say it depends where you want to live for the next 3 years, I'm from the OC and if you like a laid back, sunny lifestyle than UCI.
Best of Luck

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quadsixm
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby quadsixm » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:56 pm

UCI for California, the $ is just the icing on the cake.

singingvontrapp
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby singingvontrapp » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:56 pm

No but I can make a strong claim for choosing a freaking UC. Since UCI has not graduated a class yet, lets take UC Davis, which has pretty transparent employment data for the class of 2008. It shows that over 90% of the class was employed in freaking CA, which is the state where you want to work in. Now, Notre Dame says CA is its top 5 market, but does not tell you where in top 5 it stands.

But you know who cares it's not my decision to make. Keep telling yourself that Notre Dame has national prestige and that this prestige will take you further in California than a UC. Good luck.

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Great Satchmo
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby Great Satchmo » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:41 pm

Any of these schools, with good grades, will likely get you to the same point as far as prestige goes.

What matters are the connections you make to get jobs.

Being in California to make those connections would seem easier than being at ND.

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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby ENGINEERD » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:41 am

singingvontrapp wrote:No but I can make a strong claim for choosing a freaking UC. Since UCI has not graduated a class yet, lets take UC Davis, which has pretty transparent employment data for the class of 2008. It shows that over 90% of the class was employed in freaking CA, which is the state where you want to work in. Now, Notre Dame says CA is its top 5 market, but does not tell you where in top 5 it stands.

But you know who cares it's not my decision to make. Keep telling yourself that Notre Dame has national prestige and that this prestige will take you further in California than a UC. Good luck.


According to the ND admissions packet, Los Angeles was second largest market for the class of 2009 (based off of those who responded to the poll). Only a close second to Chicago. I am from California and ND does seem pretty highly regarded here.

I know I will have to work harder to make connections in California if I go to ND or WUSTL but I think that is something I may be will sacrifice for the increase of portability. My fear is that UCI will restrict me to Irvine. I have lived in OC my whole life and despite the pretty scenery I don't know how much more I can take of the sterility and lack of culture.

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lt0826
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby lt0826 » Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:12 am

Were you at today's ASD at UCI? Personally, I would go with UCI over those 3, but hey I just turned in my SAR into UCI so I am biased :-D.

Seriously, I am assuming by your nick that you have an engineering background. From what I've heard, if that's the case, you will be in fairly high demand when you graduate and should be fine regardless of which school you choose and won't be bound as much by geography as others might be. So if I were you, I'd visit all three if possible and see where I picked up the best vibe and combine it with a cost analysis.

Also, at ASD today it was pointed out that many of the firms at OCI for UCI also have offices in other major cities and that there is no reason you couldn't negotiate where in a firm you might work. I think they were specifically talking about 1L summer, but I don't see why it would be any different after graduation.

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im_blue
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby im_blue » Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:21 am

Notre Dame, because it has the best portability of the three, and will serve you just fine if you have a sufficient tech background.

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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby ENGINEERD » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:21 pm

lt0826 wrote:Were you at today's ASD at UCI? Personally, I would go with UCI over those 3, but hey I just turned in my SAR into UCI so I am biased :-D.

Seriously, I am assuming by your nick that you have an engineering background. From what I've heard, if that's the case, you will be in fairly high demand when you graduate and should be fine regardless of which school you choose and won't be bound as much by geography as others might be. So if I were you, I'd visit all three if possible and see where I picked up the best vibe and combine it with a cost analysis.

Also, at ASD today it was pointed out that many of the firms at OCI for UCI also have offices in other major cities and that there is no reason you couldn't negotiate where in a firm you might work. I think they were specifically talking about 1L summer, but I don't see why it would be any different after graduation.


Yes I was at ASD, it was so long but I learned alot of good stuff. I can see why you and many others are so excited about the school but for some reason I can't get on board.

I hope you are right about not being bound by region with my background (engineering BS/MS). I have visited WUSTL and really liked the vibe of the school. I will be visiting Notre Dame in the next few weeks but I am quite apprehensive about south bend.

Thanks for the response!

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lt0826
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby lt0826 » Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:39 pm

ENGINEERD wrote:
lt0826 wrote:Were you at today's ASD at UCI? Personally, I would go with UCI over those 3, but hey I just turned in my SAR into UCI so I am biased :-D.

Seriously, I am assuming by your nick that you have an engineering background. From what I've heard, if that's the case, you will be in fairly high demand when you graduate and should be fine regardless of which school you choose and won't be bound as much by geography as others might be. So if I were you, I'd visit all three if possible and see where I picked up the best vibe and combine it with a cost analysis.

Also, at ASD today it was pointed out that many of the firms at OCI for UCI also have offices in other major cities and that there is no reason you couldn't negotiate where in a firm you might work. I think they were specifically talking about 1L summer, but I don't see why it would be any different after graduation.


Yes I was at ASD, it was so long but I learned alot of good stuff. I can see why you and many others are so excited about the school but for some reason I can't get on board.

I hope you are right about not being bound by region with my background (engineering BS/MS). I have visited WUSTL and really liked the vibe of the school. I will be visiting Notre Dame in the next few weeks but I am quite apprehensive about south bend.

Thanks for the response!


Sorry Irvine wasn't the right feel for you :-(. Everyone is different though and I think that is why it is helpful to visit schools before making a choice. Good luck wherever you decide to go. :-D

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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby ViP » Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:46 pm

This should interest you...

Professor Dan Burk, UCI founding faculty member and Intellectual Property expert, was recently named the 3rd most cited IP professor in the country:

http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2010_ ... pact.shtml

Furthermore, an Irvine 1L told me that he strongly believes the school will become an IP powerhouse, largely due to Professor Burk's pedigree.

Choose Irvine :D .

ENGINEERD
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby ENGINEERD » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:38 pm

This confuses me...

The vast majority of the people polled here

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=115768

think UCI will be ranked worse than 30 yet the majority of the people polled on this thread say UCI is the better choice over ND and WUSTL. I take this to mean that the people who voted for UCI think that if ND and WUSTL are out your region then they are not prestigous enough institutions to attend over your local regional school. Meaning that Local T30-T50 w/ $$ >> Out of state T22-19 w/$$

The flaw is that I am assuming that the same people who said UCI will be 30+ are those who said UCI>>ND/WUSTL.

But I am curious if the bolded statement is the view held by most of you...

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romothesavior
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:42 pm

Don't look at the rankings as gospel truth. They are a rough guide, and different schools are better than others when you plug in different variables.

UCI is your best bet. ND is probably better than WUSTL because of the money and Wash U's weakness in California. But I've anecdotally heard ND isn't great with IP, while Wash U is pretty solid in it.

Still, UCI.

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quadsixm
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby quadsixm » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:45 pm

ENGINEERD wrote:This confuses me...

The vast majority of the people polled here

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=115768

think UCI will be ranked worse than 30 yet the majority of the people polled on this thread say UCI is the better choice over ND and WUSTL. I take this to mean that the people who voted for UCI think that if ND and WUSTL are out your region then they are not prestigous enough institutions to attend over your local regional school. Meaning that Local T30-T50 w/ $$ >> Out of state T22-19 w/$$

The flaw is that I am assuming that the same people who said UCI will be 30+ are those who said UCI>>ND/WUSTL.

But I am curious if the bolded statement is the view held by most of you...


Yep, you said you wanted CA, but would also be open to NYC...

UCI to the CA market is 10x easier than WUSTL or ND to NYC, rankings be damned. WUSTL and ND definitely place some in NYC, but there are no guarantees. WUSTL's weakness is the west coast. ND -> CA is a long shot too.

If you wanted to live/work in Chicago, I would say WUSTL or ND. Probably ND because of $ and lay prestige.

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DOOM
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby DOOM » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:50 pm

To emphasize what previous posters have mentioned (without making too much of an overstatement):

your engineering background makes things a bit different, particularly if you are looking to or are willing to practice hard patent law (patent prosecution). despite these three schools being predominantly regional in placement, your engineering background will provide better national mobility.

many engineering law students looking to do patent work attend one of the national patent-specific career fairs, such as the Loyola Patent Fair in Chicago. (which you should definitely fly out to regardless of which school you end up attending) many find more/most of their summer offers through opportunities like this rather than OCI. Coming from California, you will certainly have a leg-up in securing a patent related job back in Cali even if you decide to go to WUSTL or ND.

I don't want to go so far as to say that, because you are an engineer pursuing patent law the rules don't apply and you are garaunteed great national mobility/jobs, but the general method of interviewing for patent jobs can be different, and pursuing job opportunities through national patent fairs like Loyola's makes the location of the school you attend less important than the school's prestige/rank, your law school grades, and most importantly your UG (pre-law school) degree and work experience.

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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby ENGINEERD » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:21 pm

thanks for replying to my shameless bumping of this post!

I know UCI is the credited response but in a very shallow way I would rather say I go to Notre Dame than UCI. I know UCI is also a great school but for me, Notre Dame has so much prestige. Of course i would not make this decision on that fact alone but at the end of the day it does play a role in my decision process.

On a side note I hear mixed signals about finding a job from ND in California. I want to work in Los Angeles, and I know UCI will set me up in OC but will I really have that much better job prospects in LA coming from UCI than I would coming from ND?

On another side note I will def be attending the patent convention in chicago thanks for the insight! I have also heard from some people on TLS that graduates looking to go into patent law are not as bound to their regions as their peers. I hope that is true however I am trying to overlook that throughout my decision process.

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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:24 pm

ENGINEERD wrote:thanks for replying to my shameless bumping of this post!

I know UCI is the credited response but in a very shallow way I would rather say I go to Notre Dame than UCI. I know UCI is also a great school but for me, Notre Dame has so much prestige. Of course i would not make this decision on that fact alone but at the end of the day it does play a role in my decision process.

On a side note I hear mixed signals about finding a job from ND in California. I want to work in Los Angeles, and I know UCI will set me up in OC but will I really have that much better job prospects in LA coming from UCI than I would coming from ND?

On another side note I will def be attending the patent convention in chicago thanks for the insight! I have also heard from some people on TLS that graduates looking to go into patent law are not as bound to their regions as their peers. I hope that is true however I am trying to overlook that throughout my decision process.


Notre Dame = Overrated. You know how most people close to a school overrate how good it is (like Nashville folks do with Vandy and St. Louisans do with Wash U)? Well the opposite is true with Notre Dame. The rest of the country seems to think it is some golden city on a hill, while most of us in the Midwest are like *yawn.* If some sense of prestige is guiding your decision, let me knock you off that horse right away.

And yes, to answer your question, you will have better job prospects in CA than from ND.

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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby ENGINEERD » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:52 pm

romothesavior wrote:
ENGINEERD wrote:thanks for replying to my shameless bumping of this post!

I know UCI is the credited response but in a very shallow way I would rather say I go to Notre Dame than UCI. I know UCI is also a great school but for me, Notre Dame has so much prestige. Of course i would not make this decision on that fact alone but at the end of the day it does play a role in my decision process.

On a side note I hear mixed signals about finding a job from ND in California. I want to work in Los Angeles, and I know UCI will set me up in OC but will I really have that much better job prospects in LA coming from UCI than I would coming from ND?

On another side note I will def be attending the patent convention in chicago thanks for the insight! I have also heard from some people on TLS that graduates looking to go into patent law are not as bound to their regions as their peers. I hope that is true however I am trying to overlook that throughout my decision process.


Notre Dame = Overrated. You know how most people close to a school overrate how good it is (like Nashville folks do with Vandy and St. Louisans do with Wash U)? Well the opposite is true with Notre Dame. The rest of the country seems to think it is some golden city on a hill, while most of us in the Midwest are like *yawn.* If some sense of prestige is guiding your decision, let me knock you off that horse right away.

And yes, to answer your question, you will have better job prospects in CA than from ND.


Do you feel this way because you went to a rival school or is this a common feeling among midwesterners?

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romothesavior
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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:57 pm

ENGINEERD wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
ENGINEERD wrote:thanks for replying to my shameless bumping of this post!

I know UCI is the credited response but in a very shallow way I would rather say I go to Notre Dame than UCI. I know UCI is also a great school but for me, Notre Dame has so much prestige. Of course i would not make this decision on that fact alone but at the end of the day it does play a role in my decision process.

On a side note I hear mixed signals about finding a job from ND in California. I want to work in Los Angeles, and I know UCI will set me up in OC but will I really have that much better job prospects in LA coming from UCI than I would coming from ND?

On another side note I will def be attending the patent convention in chicago thanks for the insight! I have also heard from some people on TLS that graduates looking to go into patent law are not as bound to their regions as their peers. I hope that is true however I am trying to overlook that throughout my decision process.


Notre Dame = Overrated. You know how most people close to a school overrate how good it is (like Nashville folks do with Vandy and St. Louisans do with Wash U)? Well the opposite is true with Notre Dame. The rest of the country seems to think it is some golden city on a hill, while most of us in the Midwest are like *yawn.* If some sense of prestige is guiding your decision, let me knock you off that horse right away.

And yes, to answer your question, you will have better job prospects in CA than from ND.


Do you feel this way because you went to a rival school or is this a common feeling among midwesterners?


I didn't go to a rival school. But I am from the Midwest and none of my friends/family are blown away by ND. Maybe its too small a sample size and obviously my friends aren't employers, but you seem to be gunning more for the "lay-prestige" in saying you went to ND, so I offer this anecdotal evidence up as a way to deter you from making a poor career decision for this perception of lay prestige.

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Re: ND vs UCI vs WUSTL ?????

Postby ENGINEERD » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:08 pm

romothesavior wrote:
ENGINEERD wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
ENGINEERD wrote:thanks for replying to my shameless bumping of this post!

I know UCI is the credited response but in a very shallow way I would rather say I go to Notre Dame than UCI. I know UCI is also a great school but for me, Notre Dame has so much prestige. Of course i would not make this decision on that fact alone but at the end of the day it does play a role in my decision process.

On a side note I hear mixed signals about finding a job from ND in California. I want to work in Los Angeles, and I know UCI will set me up in OC but will I really have that much better job prospects in LA coming from UCI than I would coming from ND?

On another side note I will def be attending the patent convention in chicago thanks for the insight! I have also heard from some people on TLS that graduates looking to go into patent law are not as bound to their regions as their peers. I hope that is true however I am trying to overlook that throughout my decision process.


Notre Dame = Overrated. You know how most people close to a school overrate how good it is (like Nashville folks do with Vandy and St. Louisans do with Wash U)? Well the opposite is true with Notre Dame. The rest of the country seems to think it is some golden city on a hill, while most of us in the Midwest are like *yawn.* If some sense of prestige is guiding your decision, let me knock you off that horse right away.

And yes, to answer your question, you will have better job prospects in CA than from ND.


Do you feel this way because you went to a rival school or is this a common feeling among midwesterners?


I didn't go to a rival school. But I am from the Midwest and none of my friends/family are blown away by ND. Maybe its too small a sample size and obviously my friends aren't employers, but you seem to be gunning more for the "lay-prestige" in saying you went to ND, so I offer this anecdotal evidence up as a way to deter you from making a poor career decision for this perception of lay prestige.


I honestly have never heard that opinion am I really that delusional???




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