Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
bludvl_prelaw
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:31 pm

Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby bludvl_prelaw » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:39 pm

After doing the math, I'll owe Fordham around $210,000 at graduation, versus around $75,000 to Brooklyn. (This includes cost of living and other expenses.)

Also, looking at last year's employment stats for both schools, it looks like top 50% at Fordham will get you a good shot at big law, whereas it's around 30% at Brooklyn.

I'm not sure if I want to do big law, but at the very least, it would allow me to pay off law school debts without having to worry too much, I could always go into something else later.

Basically, I'm looking at around an extra $135,000 in debt for a 20% cushion in terms of class rank.

MJMD
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:26 pm

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby MJMD » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:49 pm

Did you factor in money earned working at firms over the summer?

User avatar
T14_Scholly
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:46 pm

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby T14_Scholly » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:50 pm

Looks like either way you're going to get @$$-****ed by NYC cost of living.

User avatar
bludvl_prelaw
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:31 pm

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby bludvl_prelaw » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:00 pm

bump

tycho_brahe
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:16 am

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby tycho_brahe » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:09 pm

If you don't want biglaw, go to Brooklyn. If you do, go to Fordham.

User avatar
kaydish21
Posts: 300
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:51 pm

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby kaydish21 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:30 pm

I'm curious how you got the top 30% figure for big law at BLS. That number seems far too generous with everything I've heard.

User avatar
XxSpyKEx
Posts: 1741
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:48 am

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:11 pm

bludvl_prelaw wrote:After doing the math, I'll owe Fordham around $210,000 at graduation, versus around $75,000 to Brooklyn. (This includes cost of living and other expenses.)

Also, looking at last year's employment stats for both schools, it looks like top 50% at Fordham will get you a good shot at big law, whereas it's around 30% at Brooklyn.

I'm not sure if I want to do big law, but at the very least, it would allow me to pay off law school debts without having to worry too much, I could always go into something else later.

Basically, I'm looking at around an extra $135,000 in debt for a 20% cushion in terms of class rank.


God, I read the underlined and thought someone might have revived this thread from years ago. Those numbers are fucking ridiculous. It's more like top 10% gives you a shot at biglaw (and by biglaw I mean NJL250, not v100) from Fordham and 0% gets a shot a biglaw from Brooklyn. Not even top 30% is making it into biglaw from Georgetown in this economy, and it's around 50% at t10s (once again for NJL250, which includes firms that only pay $80K /year, not v100).

EDIT- in all honestly, I'm not sure $75K at Fordham is justifiable in this economy (maybe?), but it definetely isn't at a toilet like BLS. Retake the LSAT and reapply or don't go.

User avatar
Nicholasnickynic
Posts: 1126
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:21 pm

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:43 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
bludvl_prelaw wrote:After doing the math, I'll owe Fordham around $210,000 at graduation, versus around $75,000 to Brooklyn. (This includes cost of living and other expenses.)

Also, looking at last year's employment stats for both schools, it looks like top 50% at Fordham will get you a good shot at big law, whereas it's around 30% at Brooklyn.

I'm not sure if I want to do big law, but at the very least, it would allow me to pay off law school debts without having to worry too much, I could always go into something else later.

Basically, I'm looking at around an extra $135,000 in debt for a 20% cushion in terms of class rank.


God, I read the underlined and thought someone might have revived this thread from years ago. Those numbers are fucking ridiculous. It's more like top 10% gives you a shot at biglaw (and by biglaw I mean NJL250, not v100) from Fordham and 0% gets a shot a biglaw from Brooklyn. Not even top 30% is making it into biglaw from Georgetown in this economy, and it's around 50% at t10s (once again for NJL250, which includes firms that only pay $80K /year, not v100).

EDIT- in all honestly, I'm not sure $75K at Fordham is justifiable in this economy (maybe?), but it definetely isn't at a toilet like BLS. Retake the LSAT and reapply or don't go.


If you are going to criticize his numbers at least put correct ones.

Georgetown= 48.2%, not less than 30%.
Fordham =29%, not 10%.
If you are trying to guess next years numbers, then go for it. But it seems like you shot down his information as not being fact based... and then gave your non fact-based opinion.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

User avatar
Great Satchmo
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby Great Satchmo » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:47 pm

bludvl_prelaw wrote:After doing the math, I'll owe Fordham around $210,000 at graduation, versus around $75,000 to Brooklyn. (This includes cost of living and other expenses.)

Also, looking at last year's employment stats for both schools, it looks like top 50% at Fordham will get you a good shot at big law, whereas it's around 30% at Brooklyn.

I'm not sure if I want to do big law, but at the very least, it would allow me to pay off law school debts without having to worry too much, I could always go into something else later.

Basically, I'm looking at around an extra $135,000 in debt for a 20% cushion in terms of class rank.



The numbers are off, as someone said, but not as the poster (who clearly is hateful at the world) said.

This is entirely a personal call. Debt is a personal thing and something you'll have to live with, but so are opportunities should you get them.

User avatar
bludvl_prelaw
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:31 pm

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby bludvl_prelaw » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:51 pm

I got those numbers from data I obtained from going to admitted students' days I went to at both schools.

Half of last year's class at Fordham had been placed into biglaw; it was around 30% for BLS.

I realize the economy sucks. I spoke to some people at Fordham who were having trouble finding a job. Likewise, I spoke to some BLS grads who did not finish in the top 10 percent and were in biglaw.

I'm guessing the economy will be better in 2013.

I'm sorry I don't have a link, but those numbers are definitely right - at least, according to the schools. Plus, BLS put almost 100 students into biglaw last year.

I'm not at all convinced that BLS is a TTT like people say it is. I know it's not Fordham or HYS, but from what I'm hearing from most people outside of TLS, it's not at all a bad school.

User avatar
Nicholasnickynic
Posts: 1126
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:21 pm

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:01 pm

I'd take the official NLJ 250 Results > over what the schools say.

User avatar
XxSpyKEx
Posts: 1741
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:48 am

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:05 pm

Nicholasnickynic wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
bludvl_prelaw wrote:After doing the math, I'll owe Fordham around $210,000 at graduation, versus around $75,000 to Brooklyn. (This includes cost of living and other expenses.)

Also, looking at last year's employment stats for both schools, it looks like top 50% at Fordham will get you a good shot at big law, whereas it's around 30% at Brooklyn.

I'm not sure if I want to do big law, but at the very least, it would allow me to pay off law school debts without having to worry too much, I could always go into something else later.

Basically, I'm looking at around an extra $135,000 in debt for a 20% cushion in terms of class rank.


God, I read the underlined and thought someone might have revived this thread from years ago. Those numbers are fucking ridiculous. It's more like top 10% gives you a shot at biglaw (and by biglaw I mean NJL250, not v100) from Fordham and 0% gets a shot a biglaw from Brooklyn. Not even top 30% is making it into biglaw from Georgetown in this economy, and it's around 50% at t10s (once again for NJL250, which includes firms that only pay $80K /year, not v100).

EDIT- in all honestly, I'm not sure $75K at Fordham is justifiable in this economy (maybe?), but it definetely isn't at a toilet like BLS. Retake the LSAT and reapply or don't go.


If you are going to criticize his numbers at least put correct ones.

Georgetown= 48.2%, not less than 30%.
Fordham =29%, not 10%.
If you are trying to guess next years numbers, then go for it. But it seems like you shot down his information as not being fact based... and then gave your non fact-based opinion.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1


Those numbers are from the class of 2009, which did their OCI during 2007 (the boom period). My numbers from last fall's OCI. No one's publishing their numbers for this year yet (for obvious reasons), but most schools collected the information and if you read around a bit you can find a lot of this.

EDIT- Also, Georgetown= 42.8%, not 48.2 for class of 2009 (OCI 2007). You can easily see how that could have dropped to below 30% in the current economy given that there are students at Notre Dame and UIUC on law review + top 10% that didn't get biglaw (obviously not typical, but they are there and that wouldn't have been the case for class of 2009).

Also notice how BLS is not on the chart at all when the number drop as low as 13.2% at Chicago-Kent (suggesting that BLS did worse then that for class of 2009, once again, during the boom period).
Last edited by XxSpyKEx on Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dk8
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:39 pm

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby dk8 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:14 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
Nicholasnickynic wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
bludvl_prelaw wrote:After doing the math, I'll owe Fordham around $210,000 at graduation, versus around $75,000 to Brooklyn. (This includes cost of living and other expenses.)

Also, looking at last year's employment stats for both schools, it looks like top 50% at Fordham will get you a good shot at big law, whereas it's around 30% at Brooklyn.

I'm not sure if I want to do big law, but at the very least, it would allow me to pay off law school debts without having to worry too much, I could always go into something else later.

Basically, I'm looking at around an extra $135,000 in debt for a 20% cushion in terms of class rank.


God, I read the underlined and thought someone might have revived this thread from years ago. Those numbers are fucking ridiculous. It's more like top 10% gives you a shot at biglaw (and by biglaw I mean NJL250, not v100) from Fordham and 0% gets a shot a biglaw from Brooklyn. Not even top 30% is making it into biglaw from Georgetown in this economy, and it's around 50% at t10s (once again for NJL250, which includes firms that only pay $80K /year, not v100).

EDIT- in all honestly, I'm not sure $75K at Fordham is justifiable in this economy (maybe?), but it definetely isn't at a toilet like BLS. Retake the LSAT and reapply or don't go.


If you are going to criticize his numbers at least put correct ones.

Georgetown= 48.2%, not less than 30%.
Fordham =29%, not 10%.
If you are trying to guess next years numbers, then go for it. But it seems like you shot down his information as not being fact based... and then gave your non fact-based opinion.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1


Those numbers are from the class of 2009, which did their OCI during 2007 (the boom period). My numbers from last fall's OCI. No one's publishing their numbers for this year yet (for obvious reasons), but most schools collected the information and if you read around a bit you can find a lot of this.


link to where they collected this info?

User avatar
XxSpyKEx
Posts: 1741
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:48 am

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:16 pm

dk8 wrote:link to where they collected this info?


Email. At least that's what it was at my school and a few others. No idea what every t14 did.

dk8
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:39 pm

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby dk8 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:18 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
dk8 wrote:link to where they collected this info?


Email. At least that's what it was at my school and a few others. No idea what every t14 did.


interesting. you're the first person i've heard that asserted they knew for sure exactly how their school did at OCI.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby rayiner » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:20 pm

MJMD wrote:Did you factor in money earned working at firms over the summer?


LOL.

User avatar
XxSpyKEx
Posts: 1741
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:48 am

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:21 pm

dk8 wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
dk8 wrote:link to where they collected this info?


Email. At least that's what it was at my school and a few others. No idea what every t14 did.


interesting. you're the first person i've heard that asserted they knew for sure exactly how their school did at OCI.


It's unpublished, but the career services people talk..

User avatar
XxSpyKEx
Posts: 1741
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:48 am

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:22 pm

rayiner wrote:
MJMD wrote:Did you factor in money earned working at firms over the summer?


LOL.


Wow, I can't believed I missed that. +1. :lol:

User avatar
sanpiero
Posts: 574
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:09 am

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby sanpiero » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:28 pm

http://law.fordham.edu/career-planning/17281.htm

FWIW, 50.85% of the CO 2009 at Fordham got jobs at firms with 101+ attorneys. I would hesitate to expect this to be the same for the CO 2013. It likely won't be. To be safe expect T1/3 needed for BigLaw (i.e. 101+ firms). IMO, its a huge risk to spend $210k+ with such a small probability of landing a job that pays $125k+.

User avatar
OperaSoprano
Posts: 4410
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:54 am

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:41 pm

Things were rough for the classes of 2010 and 2011. Official numbers don't exist yet, though I am privy to rumors at my own school. My admissions office believes the class of '10 actually had it the worst at OCI, though the numbers won't be out for almost a year, since that class hasn't even graduated yet. I do have one ray of hope to offer: consensus is that there is under reporting in the NLJ250 chart; not all hires have been accounted for. Schools have an incentive to have every graduate counted, and it only makes sense that they would call firms to ask if their recent grads have been reported to the NLJ. Just some food for thought.

To sanpiero: if it's purely about money, it is indeed a risk, but there are many other factors involved in school selection. I'm happy with the risk I took so far,

User avatar
sanpiero
Posts: 574
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:09 am

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby sanpiero » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:52 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:To sanpiero: if it's purely about money, it is indeed a risk, but there are many other factors involved in school selection. I'm happy with the risk I took so far,


Agreed. My approach was purely financial b/c OP didn't suggest he is interested in GOV'T or PI. If he is, the entire analysis changes. I suppose the entire analysis also changes if OP isn't debt averse, simply wants to practice law at a firm, and doesn't mind paying a substantial portion of his monthly income to SallieMae (or, now, the FDLP).

User avatar
OperaSoprano
Posts: 4410
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:54 am

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:04 pm

sanpiero wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:To sanpiero: if it's purely about money, it is indeed a risk, but there are many other factors involved in school selection. I'm happy with the risk I took so far,


Agreed. My approach was purely financial b/c OP didn't suggest he is interested in GOV'T or PI. If he is, the entire analysis changes. I suppose the entire analysis also changes if OP isn't debt averse, simply wants to practice law at a firm, and doesn't mind paying a substantial portion of his monthly income to SallieMae (or, now, the FDLP).


IBR is what really changes things, at least from a debt aversion viewpoint. I'll be paying 10-15% of my income (less whatever my LRAP covers, if I qualify), so I won't starve, but I'm not exactly going to pay the money back, either. In 10 years, or 25, worst case scenario, I'll see it forgiven.

User avatar
sanpiero
Posts: 574
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:09 am

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby sanpiero » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:09 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
sanpiero wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:To sanpiero: if it's purely about money, it is indeed a risk, but there are many other factors involved in school selection. I'm happy with the risk I took so far,


Agreed. My approach was purely financial b/c OP didn't suggest he is interested in GOV'T or PI. If he is, the entire analysis changes. I suppose the entire analysis also changes if OP isn't debt averse, simply wants to practice law at a firm, and doesn't mind paying a substantial portion of his monthly income to SallieMae (or, now, the FDLP).


IBR is what really changes things, at least from a debt aversion viewpoint. I'll be paying 10-15% of my income (less whatever my LRAP covers, if I qualify), so I won't starve, but I'm not exactly going to pay the money back, either. In 10 years, or 25, worst case scenario, I'll see it forgiven.


You're right, IBR is huge. I'm glad there is such a generous program for those hoping to work for the government or an NPO. 10-15% of income for 10 years seems very reasonable. i believe the calculation is done on your income less the federal poverty level (i.e. disposable income), instead of simply 15% of gross income, so there's an added benefit. let's just hope the program remains in place through 2022. i think it will.

User avatar
OperaSoprano
Posts: 4410
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:54 am

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:21 pm

sanpiero wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
sanpiero wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:To sanpiero: if it's purely about money, it is indeed a risk, but there are many other factors involved in school selection. I'm happy with the risk I took so far,


Agreed. My approach was purely financial b/c OP didn't suggest he is interested in GOV'T or PI. If he is, the entire analysis changes. I suppose the entire analysis also changes if OP isn't debt averse, simply wants to practice law at a firm, and doesn't mind paying a substantial portion of his monthly income to SallieMae (or, now, the FDLP).


IBR is what really changes things, at least from a debt aversion viewpoint. I'll be paying 10-15% of my income (less whatever my LRAP covers, if I qualify), so I won't starve, but I'm not exactly going to pay the money back, either. In 10 years, or 25, worst case scenario, I'll see it forgiven.


You're right, IBR is huge. I'm glad there is such a generous program for those hoping to work for the government or an NPO. 10-15% of income for 10 years seems very reasonable. i believe the calculation is done on your income less the federal poverty level (i.e. disposable income), instead of simply 15% of gross income, so there's an added benefit. let's just hope the program remains in place through 2022. i think it will.


Yes, that is accurate. It is also available to students working in the private sector, but note:
Will forgiven loan amounts be taxed as income?

The U.S. Department of the Treasury determined that debt forgiven through PSLF (for public interest workers) is not considered taxable income under current law. That means that when you qualify for PSLF, you won't get slapped with a huge tax bill.

Unfortunately, the same good news doesn't extend to debt forgiven through IBR. In response, Congressman Sandy Levin (D-MI) is leading a bipartisan effort to ensure that borrowers who qualify for loan forgiveness through IBR (and Income Contingent Repayment) get the same treatment. Responsible borrowers with modest incomes shouldn't have to pay potentially crippling taxes on forgiven student loans. We are hopeful that this issue will be resolved before any borrowers qualify for forgiveness through IBR. We'll continue to work on this issue and keep you informed. Urge your representatives to support H.R. 2492. Learn more about the bill.
from http://www.ibrinfo.org

That is the reality on the ground, and I hope they resolve it. IBR, as used through PSLF, is a fabulous deal at present.

User avatar
dresden doll
Posts: 6802
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:11 am

Re: Brooklyn $40K/yr vs Fordham at sticker?

Postby dresden doll » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:29 pm

MJMD wrote:Did you factor in money earned working at firms over the summer?


Hopefully not. By no means is summer firm work a realistic option, particularly as far as 1L year summer is concerned.

Btw, I wouldn't collect my numbers from schools at Admitted Students Weekends. It's not like they don't have the incentive to embellish those figures.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: carlos_danger and 3 guests